log☇︎
213900+ entries in 0.124s
asciilifeform: so as i understand it, the pictured scheme in all cases makes enemy's work no easier than it is now.
asciilifeform: which is something he already has ~all of the time~ today
asciilifeform: let's rewind to the attack scenario tho. if enemy can group the tx, all he gets is the ability to refuse to mine it, in this case
mircea_popescu: (i dunno if you recall the net history, was at a point swedish torrent published openly mockful "takedowns" on its website)
mircea_popescu: turns out usg is more than happy to bomb a whole dc, or for that matter wedding party.
mircea_popescu: this was the pretense of shared hosting. it didn't work irl.
asciilifeform: which presumably includes more than just 1 user
asciilifeform: your tx-s still won't be groupable by enemy ~to each other~, only to ~all of his backed tx~
asciilifeform: work out the example where the d00d with the rum, fails in his duty
mircea_popescu: your design requires "always", not "when it's worth the money".
mircea_popescu: whenever your design calls for "and then they will go in front of the cannons, break the enemy's arms and beat them into a pulp with the broken arms" you're not asking for a merchant, but for a soldier.
asciilifeform: and it is very much in his interest to do a proper job.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 18:33 mircea_popescu: no because government does thart for them hurr.
asciilifeform: the movement can be farmed out to the specialist ( described in the last example )
mircea_popescu: yes but now you depend on a type of tx - the moving fallbacks.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 20:03 mircea_popescu: the pill to socialism is market. make things marketable, no further problems.
asciilifeform: the other thing is, 'fallback' is a marketable ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618260 ) service. you can post a bond with somebody, and he gives you a fresh addr that you can use as fallback (if you drink it - he drinks up your bond, which is presumably more valuable than the addr amt.) ☝︎
asciilifeform: 1 more upstack : it is possible to make a repudiatable fallback. ( how : you publish the privkey of the fallback addr, after, of course, you've successfully moved its contents to a new one. ) now it is not enough for enemy to find some d00d who knows the privkey to said fallback -- he also has to know ~who had it at time t~, because today ~everyone~ has it.
asciilifeform: 'Remember that most of these """journalists""" grew up either during Watergate or in its shadow, and so it's hardly surprising that they see the role of the press as some kind of unelected fourth branch of government whose job is to "take down" the President, if all else fails. Bernstein and Woodward are their gods.'
mircea_popescu: in other news, pol likes trilema http://8ch.net/pol/res/9353080.html
asciilifeform: unless someone were to discover a variant of 'zkp' that is not a cynical fraud (fat chance, imho) -- this is what you get.
mircea_popescu: won't take 200 years the 2nd pass.
mircea_popescu: game suddenly becomes "can you volunteer necks to squeeze" ; empire already reduced the thriving system of euro trade to the sad nonsense of us banking.
mircea_popescu: so "i volunteer this neck to squeeze" ? tyvm.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'cosigner' not in the idiot 'multisig' sense, but in the banking sense. 'this unencrypted input GUARANTEES validity of this tx, but if blinded input turns out valid, it does not get balance substracted.'
asciilifeform: i will guess that the scheme described above, is the closest anyone will ever see to an actual hard-solution to the given problem.
asciilifeform: (unless you botch your tx-making and end up invoking the fallback)
asciilifeform: well you would use a virginal pile of coin as the cosigner
asciilifeform: ( to revisit upstack : a transaction could have any number of blinded inputs, ordered by priority, if the ~sum~ moved is public, and there is at least 1 nonblinded fallback 'cosigner' input carried along. )
mircea_popescu: anyway. nytimes/cnn are getting shut down, this year. there's no two ways about it at this point.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: last i heard, they set up a 'parallel whitehouse taiwan' to 'report' on.
mircea_popescu: now people will have to click on breitbart to see what trump said at news conference.
mircea_popescu: say what you will, the man is fucking killing them.
asciilifeform: that way you can guarantee the validity of a blinded tx.
mircea_popescu: in other lulkz : cnn, nytimes and the rest of the libertard fake news sites denied white house access.
asciilifeform: which gets used if the primary input turns out to invalidate on unblind
asciilifeform: you could permit a tx to have an encrypted input, if it has a verifiable fallback input, rather like 'co-signer' in banking world
asciilifeform: btw i know of 1 simple way to make 'blinded input'
asciilifeform: it was obvious even to rms, the mushroom man
mircea_popescu: "oh but if they're strong they might not like us". ~dumbass women always and everywhere.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's what the 'trusted computing' / 'fritz chip' / etc. thing was about. and that it was about this, was obvious in 1995.
mircea_popescu: somehow the fundamental problem of making one's citizens weaker is never evident to these schmucks.
asciilifeform: Licensed Agents Of The Crown may, under some exceptional circumstances, add!111 but Only Terrorists could ever GCD.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-16 16:16 asciilifeform: 'Security expert and doomsayer Bruce Schneier – speaking by video owing to RSA Conference commitments in San Francisco and perhaps prescience with regard to seasonal travel challenges – predicted that the government is coming to handcuff coders. "We all had this special right to code the world as we saw fit," said Schneier. "My guess is we're going to lose that right, because it's too dangerous
mircea_popescu: (in case anyone wonders where the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-16#1614597 scheiderism is going) ☝︎
mircea_popescu: only terrorists can add.
asciilifeform: each based on mathematical sleight of hand, rather than actual crypto
asciilifeform: more recently, the zerocoin (or was it zcash..?) thing
mircea_popescu: fluffypony's thing
mircea_popescu: i meant the what's it called, alt-coin
asciilifeform: quite the opposite
asciilifeform: urbit made no presense of decentralization tho
mircea_popescu: and note that we';re not the onyl ones aware. enemy has placed a strategic urbit right on this space.
asciilifeform: 'trust allah, and tie the came'
mircea_popescu: much like i much prefer the "i took my pills" to the "i'll be careful" female declaration.
mircea_popescu: much like i much prefer the "i'll be careful
asciilifeform: aha, and if anyone else can think of something that belongs on the list -- i'm all ears
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm always open to technological solutions to replace political solutions.
mircea_popescu: but you asked, and i tried to provide.
mircea_popescu: anyway, there might be others, i make no pretense to exhaustivity, hence why this is a very early phase of the design. we don't well know the space yet.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu no longer satisfied with the historic 'there's no taint damn you all to hell' solution to subj ?
mircea_popescu: also happens to be what's of interest, what with all "color of bits" eternal imperial quest.
asciilifeform: blinded output is trivial (many ways to unblind 1 or more blocks later); it is ~inputs~ that are the squared-circle.
asciilifeform: (i even suspect that it is possible to rigorously prove that these requirements are mathematically contradictory)
asciilifeform: now, a magical squaring of the 'anonymous tx' circle, where you lose ~nothing~, can prove a balance, verify a tx, and send entirely blinded, that satisfies everyone -- would technologically supplant classical algo. but there is no sign that such a thing is possible.
asciilifeform: they want to mine, see, on dial-up
asciilifeform: dunno, the asian 'we JUST WANT TO' folx, will whine, stand in the way however they can
mircea_popescu: ie, the interests of the participants are alligned in the way of the fix not in the way of the failure.
mircea_popescu: take the issue of "must have all blocks". there's a strong political incentive to supplant the technological failure.
asciilifeform: to pick it up and bolt to old piece of junk , rather than scrapping it entirely ?
asciilifeform: 'emulate the fix' means what, exactly ?
mircea_popescu: (in case it wasn't obvious, diff between political and technological is based on whether people have an incentive to emulate the fix anyway)
asciilifeform: (i was presupposing 'incentive to move while classical bitcoin is not on fire')
mircea_popescu: well, sha-1 went, any one of the two mechanisms involved in pubkey protection weakinging any would make for an emergency incentive.
asciilifeform: what other 'technological leaps' might qualify (other than successful blinded-payload )
asciilifeform: 'it won't grind to a halt in few years' is not 'political incentive' ?
mircea_popescu: there may be political, but then again...
mircea_popescu: absent a good or at least workable breakthrough in this vein, there's no strong technological incentive to move to trb-i
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
asciilifeform: ( to square this circle, appears to be an irresistible lure to 'tor' types, they keep coming up with 'zkp' schemes )
mircea_popescu: this is what i'm saying, anyway. " what we don't really have is the stuff that we really need, such as debottlers."
asciilifeform: to validate a tx, you gotta know that it is spending a valid input
mircea_popescu: the problem with this is that it makes balance checks impossible.
mircea_popescu: (practically - you can only know txn y spent from address z only once the chain ends up with an address you own so you can decrypt it)
mircea_popescu: all txn are encrypted to destination. nobody knows what was mined until it is spent.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how do you propose to force miners to include a particular tx ?
mircea_popescu: miners may not be able to choose txn on any other criteria than the fee ; nodes idem.
asciilifeform: ( if huckster can sell piss-cum-ink to chumps as 'elixir of immortality' -- is this a bug in piss? or in ink ? that he can do this )
mircea_popescu: idiot example #2 : a trb which allows txn to be blocked by others than their issuers is ALSO a "way to do things" which doesn't in fact work, and therefore, exactly equivalent to the peter todd & prb idiots item
mircea_popescu: idiot example #1 : peter todd & prb idiots came up with "a way to do things", which does not in fact work. ☟︎
asciilifeform: the fact of todd's trick being a thing, does not impose, afaik, any costs on legit users of bitcoin
mircea_popescu: you keep fixating on a completely nonsensical interpretation of the comparison.
asciilifeform: that wasn't a legit bitcoin tx tho
mircea_popescu: never mind that. the problem is that if your tx being included depends on you having a miner, you don't actually have a system. just like the 3bullshit isn't a system.
asciilifeform: pigeons shit on mercedes and trabant alike.
asciilifeform: idiots will always be able to smear shit on surfaces. the important thing is that the surface not be shit-permeable.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the idea is to not expand the hipster doofus design principles to trb-i
mircea_popescu: it was an instance of "here's something i made that doesn't work, mommy loves me" complex.
asciilifeform: that it was able to masquerade as 'contest prize', is not really a bug in bitcoin
asciilifeform: wasn't that ^ thing simply an instance of 'i'ma put some coin on the floor for a miner to take' ?