log☇︎
212900+ entries in 0.133s
asciilifeform: but to demonstrate to woman that she is unfit for husbands, and ought to proceed to cat accumulation, can be a valuable gift.
asciilifeform: can show that it is simply part of the existing unsolvable heat death problem.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, all it needs to show is that it is a problem. you don't get to unproblem it.
asciilifeform: or that it is a solvable problem any more so than heat death.
mircea_popescu: depends what people do with it. it's very hard to predict such stuff.
asciilifeform: so it is not clear to me that 'dust' would become a problem at any rate separate from the rate of heat death.
mircea_popescu: well, i keep recurring this problem / most everyone is eager to glaze eyes and move on.
mircea_popescu: you can add any decimals you want -- you can not make them work.
asciilifeform: aaah yes. wasn't this the earlier thread, where we determined that we already have a 'proton decay' going, and that the usable lifespan of a blockchain is -- likely -- finite ?
mircea_popescu: practically speaking on current tech the bitcoin unit of account is probably something like 0.25 ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: the (false!) theory that the bitcoin unit of account is the 0.00000001 btc or satoshi is based on the batshit insane theory that a system could ever be devised that would track 21 million hundred million individual 512byte outputs. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: i thought i made it clear that's nonsense, but to revisit :
asciilifeform: this'd be the 'deflation' thread again, neh. if it ever turns into a palpable problem -- add moar decimal places.
mircea_popescu: but the fixation on collecting the dust is quite akin to the fixation on "collecting the water" in a spaceship, or for that matter with the fixation on "retaining the atmosphere" on planet earth. venus, see, didn't so much care about its dust.
mircea_popescu: see... irl exact same thing happens, people throw it out until one day.
mircea_popescu: and then turned around and mined the garbage dump for it.
asciilifeform: now you ~could~ boil the thing in nitric acid, try to recover it. but most folx don't -- and sleep well at night
asciilifeform: btw i'd argue that the fixation on 'collecting the dust' is peculiar. everyone who has ever thrown away, e.g., old mobo, or whichever electronic rubbish, has discarded many milligram of Au and more or less whole mendeleev table of rarities.
asciilifeform: because you then need db, which will ~necessarily~ grow slower-to-lookup in geometric progression as tx table grows.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose i have a wallet full of dust. how do i resolve the problem ? count dust / 2 txn in sqrt(count dust) tranches ?
asciilifeform: the fixed-width-tx is a provable component of any long-term-sane trb-i. regardless of what other parts are included or excluded. without it, you get rapid rot.
asciilifeform: there is no such thing, and i suspect that it can be proven that there can be no such thing
mircea_popescu: which was the topic of yesterday's comments or w/e we talked about that.
mircea_popescu: but it would ~seem~ that if you do this, then you should put in the work and make a ~proper~ ring signature scheme.
asciilifeform: (rather than db idiocy)
mircea_popescu: 2 in 2 out is the correct primitive, even if oyu want to move 11.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm ok with 11 in, 11 out. so long the byte block for them is FIXED.
mircea_popescu: forcing all txn to be 2 in 2 out is a poor man's ring signature i guess.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason i said 2 in 2 out. anything else is either nonmoving (1-2) or else tree pruning (2:1 ends up with a single coinbase ; 1:2 ends up with an infinity of satoshi sized coinbases you might as well stop lying about and issue outright)
asciilifeform: by n tx.
asciilifeform: at the cost of multiply txing.
asciilifeform: you can replicate the effects of multi-in-multi-out using multiple single-in-single-out.
mircea_popescu: for the fact that reality.
mircea_popescu: but you need it for the whole thing to signify.
asciilifeform: it results in nonlocality and massive thrashing.
mircea_popescu: all the rest, that he used boost, or bdb or qt, or that he doesn't know how to design or that he scratched his name in the lens can be fixed
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 12:08 mircea_popescu: a third, and rather major, problem is that you will have serious trouble creating fixed width transactions in general. the reason is that the amount of information itself varies ; you can pretend to push this inconvenience all the way to the user ("hey, always use two inputs and two outputs and fu!") but it's somewhat unlikely to ever stick.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619760 << this is the biggie. you ~gotta~ have fixed-width TX, ruat caelum, because it is the only way to not have the system grind to an exponential halt over ~decade. because it makes O(1) input verification ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618145 thread ) possible -- and - provably - no other geometry does. ☝︎☝︎
mircea_popescu: yes, which is at least to my eyes the major objective source of satoshi bitcoin braindamage.
asciilifeform: *fixed-width tx, rather from 2 lines up
asciilifeform: *fixed-width tx, rather
asciilifeform: variable-width tx is braindamage.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 12:08 mircea_popescu: a third, and rather major, problem is that you will have serious trouble creating fixed width transactions in general. the reason is that the amount of information itself varies ; you can pretend to push this inconvenience all the way to the user ("hey, always use two inputs and two outputs and fu!") but it's somewhat unlikely to ever stick.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619760 << this is the biggie. you ~gotta~ have fixed-width blocks, ruat caelum, because it is the only way to not have the system grind to an exponential halt over ~decade. because it makes O(1) input verification ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618145 thread ) possible -- and - provably - no other geometry does. ☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 12:14 mircea_popescu: a fourth, minor point, is that you have your market primitives ass-backwards. no price formation is ever envisaged to have "asks may depend on bids" as an edulcoration of "asks are fixed ; bids are fixed" because it is always possible to produce a pricing function for the product (based on cost) whereas it's never possible to produce a pricing function for the demand (demand is a psychological, not a physical phenomenon). the
asciilifeform: and this also addresses http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619762 , i think ☝︎
mircea_popescu: see, a market is a thing of itself, not a sort of air that fills crevices you leave, but a sort of magnetic field, goes where it goes.
mircea_popescu: EVEN THEN.
asciilifeform: i'm with mircea_popescu on this one
asciilifeform: earlier it was 'fill this or you spilled'
asciilifeform: well now that casks can be floated empty, this is practical.
mircea_popescu: well yes. cask comes with "and this much in fee", write your tx for it or return the cask.
asciilifeform: so these are both verifiable at the immediately preceding-the-leaf level.
mircea_popescu: so then why even have it. have fixed fee throughout.
asciilifeform: just like he knows if the sig is invalid.
asciilifeform: a tx, recall, is finalized (from egg to larva) ~upon receipt of rolled cask~, which means that the immediate parent immediately knows if the fee suffices.
mircea_popescu: both result in your not eating soup, but that as it may.
mircea_popescu: the rot where i shit in the soup and the rot where the soup is "too expensive" iyo are not the same rot.
mircea_popescu: but you conflate two rots.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 11:59 mircea_popescu: there's a different, much less notable problem wrt to what constitutes "a rotten fill". if i go to the stock market (i mean the old, gentlemany, pit of hand gestures thing) and bid "sentiments" for a certain share, i am in fact engaging in retarded behaviour, on the level of sjwing, and will, and should be kicked out.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619756 << the 'rotten fill' thing was simply a restatement of 'a tx is not a tx unless it is valid, and a block is not a valid block unless it consists wholly of valid tx.' cribbed straight from classical bitcoin. phrasing was, evidently, confusing. ☝︎
asciilifeform: it is an inevitable occurrence at all levels of the pyramid, and is not fraudulent per se.
asciilifeform: not disavowed. probably ought to have described 'fib' more neutrally.
mircea_popescu: you can't go around picking some random parts of your spec to disavow. you put it in there.
mircea_popescu: understand, the principle is naturalia non sunt turpia. what this means is, that if the girl MUST go on her knees and cover her own face in semen while looking up at you, then THEREFORE it CAN NOT be "a shameful act" for a woman on her knees to cover her own face in semen while looking up.
asciilifeform: the design specifies that the rate of promise-breaking is measurable. which is a prerequisite to any wotronic approach to incentivizing promise-keeping.
mircea_popescu: here the case is that the design specifies he should.
asciilifeform: the inevitable other side of the promise-making medal, is that the maker can break the promise.
mircea_popescu: well, i read your attitude as rather negative to it. but okay.
mircea_popescu: this is not a merit but a dismerit of the design, as such.
mircea_popescu: not "so he". by your design, he absolutely has to.
asciilifeform: if he oversells excessively, he gets nailed by his downstream. which is as it ought to be.
asciilifeform: miner does not ~have~ to roll all 1k casks.
asciilifeform: this is same problem that airline solves
mircea_popescu: or too many times. or howevert you wish to put it.
mircea_popescu: i must ensure i get 1k filled casks for it ; but if nodes can return casks at any time, i will ALWAYS have a % of casks returned too late.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the problem is at lowerst N.
mircea_popescu: but they must be because i am working on block n with 1k holes in it./
mircea_popescu: FOR ME however, and unbeknownst to them, this is becoming a crunch.
asciilifeform: ( recall that casks have time parameters. they do not have to be promiseheighted 'for currentheight+1' immediate fill! )
mircea_popescu: 90 get returned AGAIN. fair deal, as far as the nodes are concerned, ie the distant cousins did nothing else nor anything worse than the original 1k.
mircea_popescu: i now issue 300 more casks, to 300 more "distant cousin" nodes.
mircea_popescu: 300 of these casks get returned. fair deal.
mircea_popescu: i am node mp. i issue 1k casks, to my 1k nodes.
mircea_popescu: no look, let's go through it.
asciilifeform: this is, note, unlikely to be the top
asciilifeform: at whichever level of the pyramid where the '4th roll' happens - is where a child's head rolls.
mircea_popescu: everyone gets a cask, thinks it fresh.
asciilifeform: ultimately guderian answers if the tank attack failed.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a "this is a 4th roll of this cask - must fill" field in your protocol.
mircea_popescu: nobody is responsible, everyone got the cask once.
asciilifeform: all children are responsible for their children.
mircea_popescu: think, you push out 1k casks, statistically 5% will be returned > 5 times etc.
mircea_popescu: (because as a miner you got this cask returned for the 5th time, whose head do you cut.)
asciilifeform: (cask'd be sent down to a child for an interval, if it fails to float, gets reissued)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 11:56 mircea_popescu: to demand miner makes a certified statement to the effect of "offset 0xa to 0xb in block y is reserved for txn 0xc" is putting a constraint on this p2p system the likes of which it can't conceivably bear.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619755 << later realized that the protocol ought to permit returning an unfilled cask to the parent, so he can reissue it to another child. this would make for a less unforgivably-tightly-coupled system ☝︎
mircea_popescu: it may well be argued that user is actually worst-fucked, as per 6.a or .b examples above.
asciilifeform: let's come back to this part; i'ma walk the list.
asciilifeform: whole thing is about 'marketize timely tx-gathering'.