log☇︎
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BingoBoingo: 4 real, Also Argentina is now officially in "selective default" after the latest round of Derpities announced trying to keep hell from breaking loose before October 27th.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 04:51:18 mircea_popescu: it's this device that transforms inca (circular motion) into republic (linear motion) by the principle of only permitting rotary motion in one direction, thereby using the inca mass against itself.
asciilifeform: atm i have a distinct unpleasant feeling that the ratchet presently does not ratchet very well.
asciilifeform: 1 that knows how to pg, socketize, etc.
asciilifeform: imho instead of rewriting logger for 11th time out of matchsticks and hot glue, would be better to make a proper scripting lang...
asciilifeform: thinking about it, i'm not terribly surprised that centos 6 dun suck down a working set of shitlibs: loox like it was released in jul 2011 .
asciilifeform: and then you might find, as i did, that gnat.sockets mysteriously barfs in certain cases
asciilifeform: ( and then face the q : ~which~ pg !? )
asciilifeform: ( and it'd in turn have to use pg's c ffi, afaik there's no other usable glue for it at all )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you'd need to bake pg glue for ada, there aint any
diana_coman: given this, I seriously wonder if it can be much worse to make it in ada on top of all the gnat-mess including unbounded strings and gnat.sockets and everything else; at least the full gnat so far *is* more transferable
asciilifeform: well if you feel like sweating out 3 kilometres of malloc() and realloc()'s and errno()'s -- who am i to say
diana_coman: well yes but it's starting to sound even appealing here, lolz
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma jump with a parachute made of garbage bags before writing www-facing proggy in c, but maybe that's just me..
diana_coman: asciilifeform: so then what, I'm still better off writing the bot in C or what?
asciilifeform: ( and that's a box already, years ago, set up for clism... )
asciilifeform: even when i was sewing 'pehbot' , out of ben & trinque's cl logbot, found that it took substantial effort to get the req'd cl libs onto the box
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i vaguely suspect that this is the thing that discouraged past folx who made loggers, from genesising. 'dafuq is the point, likely no one can even replicate this'
diana_coman: as usual, there's no lack of "tools", lolz; only none does anything other than eating up more time, ofc.
asciilifeform: this is pretty much the last thing i'd be recommending to people to do, save for the fact that i shat out a log sys in it, lol
asciilifeform: i recall lobbes was using some kinda system for sucking down py libs that worked through the deps chain, but can't recall what was
asciilifeform: gentoo has , in any given instance, fuckknowswhat, BUT at least reliably pulls down the particular necessary strand of the spittoon, typically
asciilifeform: diana_coman i'm curious how you went about installing the libs on yours
diana_coman: he's on gentoo so it should be more similar to your env/packages/versions though
diana_coman: well, by now it seems to me that either ALL match, or otherwise headache; and I suspect that at the next level it's simply either same repo/distro or won't match
asciilifeform: i think that covers all the crapolade
diana_coman: asciilifeform: thanks; and yes, the .ext.cache trouble seems to be re v 0. or 1., ugh
asciilifeform: ( this will go into next patch )
asciilifeform: the cache thing is unused, as lobbes pointed out 2wks ago, you can safely comment it out
asciilifeform: diana_coman: on testbed , print flask.__version__ >> 0.10.1 ; python --version >> 2.7.5 ;
diana_coman: the full list of stuff pulled in by flask seems to be: flask Werkzeug itsdangerous Jinja2 MarkupSafe
diana_coman: I have python 2.7.16 flask 1.1.1 and werkzeug 0.15.5 from what I see and the reader.py fails complaining that there is no flask.ext.cache , which seems to be again some version-shenanigans
diana_coman: asciilifeform: mind giving the exact versions for flask, werkzeug and whatever other shit is used in there?
asciilifeform: the only knob in bot that actually gives a shit re the reader is the search knob ( see where it expects to find the # of results ) .
asciilifeform: it is in fact possib. to use 1 w/out the other ( e.g. asciilifeform's adhoc mirrors have only reader.py ; one could sit a bot using solely bot.py and then write yer own viewer at leisure ; and so on )
asciilifeform: the former sits in irc and records lines, answers cmds, etc. ; the latter serves up the httpized logism.
asciilifeform: to be utterly pedantic : the log sys consists of 2 separate py proggies that share a db (normally expected on same box, but can in principle be elsewhere). bot.py and reader.py
asciilifeform: diana_coman: naturally and postgres. i was speaking of the py glues.
asciilifeform: the log viewer represented in the vtree simply serves itself on given local port when it runs. which you can then fwd to wherever.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i never posted that variant, imho it is useless moving part
diana_coman: aha, initially I though it required wsgi
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i at one pt blamed that coupling for the slow, and measured (plain rev.proxy vs 'wsgi' (equiv of php's fastcgi) , found 0 diff
diana_coman: ah, shall see; *if* the bot runs at all, that is.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: if it runs, will run, all that's asked of it is to forward a tcp pipe to port x (whichever yer py is on)
diana_coman: asciilifeform: what's the easiest coupling if they run on same machine anywya?
diana_coman: maybe that's also the "wrong" version...
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you'll want a front end thing for it to live under (prolly apache) also .
asciilifeform: diana_coman: my test bed fwiw used pg 9.4.5 .
diana_coman: well, I have at least fully explored the 1-strand spittoon: psycopg2 on python 2.7 wants postgresql 9 or greater and so it goes.
asciilifeform: there's imho a ~huge~ chunk of problem domain that is begging for a simple, well-specified, ~frozen~ scripting lang.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: in re pythonisms -- for that matter i'm to ~this day~ ! using my orig v.py (w / phf's 'vdiff' , and your fixup patch.) also because never found in what to rewrite it.
asciilifeform: the sword -- is in the stone!111 nao who wants to pull.
asciilifeform: i demonstrated, in 'm', how to write nontrivial proggies w/out libc or any c glue whatsoever, or any compiler dependency whatsoever.
asciilifeform: ( would also be Right Thing for e.g. bootstrapping gnat, and related battlefield )
asciilifeform: imho the Right Thing for this problem domain would be a tmsr-baked script lang built from ground, like-this . but so far no one has the free hands.
asciilifeform: ( mp is fond of old php , but it suffers from 100% of same headaches , and in fact even slower , esp. if the job is even slightly moar complicated than wp ; he arrived at it same way i did at 'flask' -- picked up decade ago and 'it worx, i'ma pour cement on this' )
asciilifeform: worse, not even certain that it is possible to write a clean/light www shitter , considering what http , tcp , are like to begin with
asciilifeform: ( considering, it is in py , interpreted lang, and my pages are generated approx on par with speed of phf's , at the immediate shitting arse end (discounting pipe delay ) )
asciilifeform: saddest thing is, i'm not even certain it's more retarded than e.g. hunchentoot
diana_coman: myeah, I quietly barfed in my notes re flask before but this time it just spilled in here.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 02:58:26 mp_en_viaje: Flask is a lightweight WSGI web application framework. It is designed to make getting started quick and easy, with the ability to scale up to complex applications. It began as a simple wrapper around Werkzeug and Jinja and has become one of the most popular Python web application frameworks." << really makes me want to be sober, reading that thing.
asciilifeform: earlier thrd where mp popped the cover on these and fulled 3 buckets with barf
asciilifeform: and i'll be the 1st to burn it all when there's a realistic alternative.
asciilifeform: if i had to pick it up all now for 1st time, dunno if could bring myself to -- it has absolutely atrocious feel to it (esp. given the 'modern' docs)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'flask' , 'psycopg', etc. are erry bit as rubbish as the docs suggest. with the twist that the assemblage actually worx ( phuctor's been running, incl. under various abuses , for yrs , on same ) .
diana_coman: I think I got a boatload of the good intentions part.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: for 2.6 need whole set of vintage liquishits that went with that specific py
asciilifeform: i considered even exotics but realized it aint happening in reasonable time frame (and fuck knows what would look like) if did so. so went like so.
diana_coman: for clarity re python 2.6 it's quite clear that it's not worth it - all sorts of breakings in flask & co really.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: and I think it was the best option available, yes.
asciilifeform: result was the item nao running.
asciilifeform: then thought 'cl', then noticed that will need 9000 unexplored (by asciilifeform) lib liquishits for pg, http, etc.; then 'fuck it, i'ma cut up phuctor and sew from its still-twitching living pieces'
asciilifeform: when i 1st sat down to write it, thought 'ada', then realized that simply to make the necessary glue would take a year, and that's if did nuffin else.
asciilifeform: ( recall thread, where 'simple script lang where can sockets etc' )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: rly it oughta be in tmsr-adalisp (tm)(r) but this apparently dun exist yet.
diana_coman: myeah; in case it's not clear - none of the above was a complaint re asciilifeform's work at all.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: the main q is: in wtf exactly
asciilifeform: ftr i was half-convinced that it won't even run outside of asciilifeform's test beds -- until lobbes replicated
asciilifeform: i made it 'low tech' to the point of people tearing out their hair from missing features, but result is that it is small enuff that could rewrite .
asciilifeform: diana_coman: if you (or anyone) rewrite the logger -- i'ma clap
asciilifeform: ( tho even gnat deviates from the paper, in several already discovered cases, sadly )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: if you decide to fiddle with the proggy so it goes on 2.6, prolly can be done ; but keep in mind that i will not be able to run yours anywhere, there's no 2.6 on any known gentoo of past decade or so.
diana_coman: ah, yes, I'm sure 2.6ism would break 2.7, it's more this "fun" of code reuse; and I can ofc install python 2.7 on top; I seriously wonder though what's really the fastest route; because also, above it doesn't even seem to be print, it barfs when importing flask, a few layers deep in werkzeug and whatever
asciilifeform: to make life even more 'interesting', there aint a magical version that can pick and 'will work on all of'em' . 2.6isms break on 2.7 just same.
asciilifeform: ( there's quite a few, turns out; e.g. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-03-12#1626258 . all 2.7 )
asciilifeform: all of asciilifeform's published pythonisms are tested under 2.7. ( some ~may~ work on older; generally none will ever work on 3+ )
diana_coman: centos 6; because gentoo problem as you just described + the poor moldavian guys anyway pretty much @kukuruz
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'flask' is the http shitting lib. i've used same 1 since 2013 (phuctor)
diana_coman: that flask thing gives me the hives
diana_coman: if it's only that...
asciilifeform: then -- yer gentoo has turned into equiv. of hand-sewn buildroot linux, where sure you can install things, but nao gotta manually tar ... ./configure && make && make install etc
asciilifeform: these will sorta work (if you make absolutely sure not to emerge --sync, EVER) ~until~ you find that some package is no longer alive on the (quite wilted) mirrors
lobbes: but server is a traditional gentoo
lobbes: asciilifeform: my testbed box is a trinqueian cuntoo (see: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/02/a-bridge-to-cuntoo-for-the-lenovo-x61-x86_64/)
snsabot: Logged on 2019-06-23 17:34:06 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919680 << fwiw asciilifeform has not used 'portage' in year+ -- the heathen portage finally 100% broke then. ( 'updated' on the gentooist end, so that no longer agrees to build ~anything~ without 'new profile', and won't install 'new profile' because hard-contravenes asciilifeform's poetteringisms ban list... )
asciilifeform: cuz my trad gentoo boxen are all in condition where portage is no longer usable
asciilifeform: lobbes: yours is a traditional gentoo? or a trinqueian cuntoo ?
lobbes: well maybe not THAT simple. But it is nice to be able to look in my masks and remember "oh yeah, I gotta remember to pick PYTHON target = 2.7" for e.g.
lobbes: man, while it was a learning curve at first, I'm loving Gentoo now. Making my x86 system on this server to work like my x86 cuntoo testbed is as simple as just copying over my USE flags and package masks
asciilifeform meanwhile puzzles over where the fuck weldable m3 nuts are to be had