log☇︎
192900+ entries in 1.44s
asciilifeform does not have a battlefield-ready apparatus to offer
asciilifeform happens to be a crackpot specializing in the subject of 'abstractions being interchangeably paperable over is a mega-lie, foundations matter forever'
decimation: this was from a paper that was written by folks who designed early 80's network protocols
mircea_popescu: they get gender bits retrofitted. it's a joke.
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
asciilifeform: it is a grave misconception that 'anything can be retrofitted.'
asciilifeform: decimation: that particular point of contention was about a kind of thing not readily retrofitted.
decimation: it occurs to me that one ought not design low level features into a communication system unless absolutely necessary
mircea_popescu: artifexd nevertheless, since output is always encrypted to a key,
artifexd: If you want a back and forth connection, you end up duplicating tcp yourself.
mircea_popescu: if we were onm a purely broadcast network, it'd work right
mircea_popescu: a mental place.
mircea_popescu: which is how humanity managed to inch its way to this sad time when it's about to kill itself a thousand different ways
mircea_popescu: historically, the closer a relation, the more direct.
asciilifeform: (i dare suggest that a node be referred to as 'cell', for extra lulz)
asciilifeform: gossipd proposes a scheme more akin to the traditional 'cell' organizations of revolutions, etc
asciilifeform: (e.g., i may know that it is a machine at ip p.q.r.s with rsa pubkey K)
asciilifeform: a destination you may or may not know something about out-of-band
mircea_popescu: a destination you know nothing about.
asciilifeform: well, 'platonic tor' is simply that a large number of people agree to 'play non-broken telephone' between me and a destination.
mircea_popescu: not even deliberately, just, as a side effect.
asciilifeform: just seems like an attempt to build a stove-refrigerator hybrid. yes, can be done, yes, in some sense these are complementary machines. but - challenge.
asciilifeform: but if we actually want to go in that direction, the logical result is a gadget like 'tor', with bounces, mixes, etc.
mircea_popescu: more importantly, hitler IS a lot more in that than he would be in this.
asciilifeform: presumably some earthly not-quite-everything was meant, rather than a 'divine' Everything
mircea_popescu: ok, let's work a different way. let us compare two scenarios.
asciilifeform: did i misunderstand, or did you say earlier that it would be a good thing if the street bomzh could not use pgp ?
mircea_popescu: i think i explained it half a dozen different ways, to exhaustion, but am at a loss as to why what seems obvious is not communicating itself.
mircea_popescu: or, if you prefer, elevating the source to the rank of a connect.
asciilifeform: and what is the intended mechanism for propagating a message which -does- make this claim ?
asciilifeform: in the scheme as presently described, your client is also signing (for the record of the hypothetical nsa goon, among others) a fairly arbitrary set of messages.
mircea_popescu: at issue is your proposal to make this a reality for people you don't know.
asciilifeform: how does a bomzh, stinking in the street, who happens to have generated a pgp key, 'matter' ?
mircea_popescu: fundamentally your argument reduces to a deep seated "all peoples matter"
mircea_popescu: a screening of "a man for all seasons" is in order here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu does not like the notion of nsa goon having a non-deniable tape of anything he catches. (i don't much, either...) asciilifeform does not like that it is generally customary to speak unsigned, and thereby nsa goon can put words into his mouth, and a certain number of people will believe them
asciilifeform sees the genuine dilemma here. but sees it as a dilemma, not an open-and-shut case in favour of soft-anonymity
asciilifeform: i won't argue that a working 'tor' would not have its uses, but it is a very different animal from an 'adult' rebirth of internet circa 1989
asciilifeform: if specifically aiming for anonymity, deniability, one ends up designing a widget akin to 'tor'
asciilifeform: this is like a late-medieval knight wishing that cannon had not existed.
mircea_popescu: artifexd i do. it's the equivalent of making a weirdo reality where anyone who eavesdrops also has a recording device.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a problem
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at present time, an 'unknown' can generate a pgp key and carry on 'continuity' with it over whatever channel. we can't exactly prevent it
asciilifeform: incidentally, in no holy book is it written that a pubkey is readily pinnable on a particular creature walking this earth
mircea_popescu: this harms because : it gives unknowns a weight they should not have ; it removes the incentive for users to police at their local level ; it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs that they had no business in. ☟︎
asciilifeform is at a loss to see how this follows
mircea_popescu: currently : 1. friend to friend relations are entirely cryptographically secured. 2. unknown-to-unknown relations are not secured, and must proceed through a friend of either party to even happen.
mircea_popescu: as in, why add clunk that actually harms and hinders, except to perpetuate what we generally agree is a harmful meme.
mircea_popescu: you understand this ? nobody can police a list of 2bn ip addresses.
mircea_popescu: they still need a friend to let them in.
asciilifeform: where eventually derps will not be able to send a packet, period.
asciilifeform: not so much 'attacks', but i for one was hoping to see this experiment as a beginning of the 'wot internet'
mircea_popescu: literally, all it takes is a one line edit.
asciilifeform: just recalling various guests in #b-a, and how long it took each to work his (often her) way out of the alimentary canal
asciilifeform: in practice, derp can often masquerade as simply an underenthusiastic or overworked 'actual person' for a spell.
asciilifeform: cajole a 'l33t3r' friend to give you an 'in', perhaps
assbot: 0 results for 'gossipd' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gossipd
asciilifeform: just strikes me as a peculiar retreat from the whole 'let's bring an end to eternal september' thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not because "preet can steal a key"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is it merely my puny brain, but i still don't grasp the 'signed-default is bad because preet can steal a key.' if preet gets a hold of my key, he may as well have put a bullet through my hide, stuffed the corpse, and proceeded to live on as it
asciilifeform: there is the added difficulty of everyone and anyone in usg-dom being 'a paedo' retroactively on the mere request of a preet.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actual pedo irl yes. among the online scum that makes up a good chunk of the "bitcoin community" on places like forums etc, common enough.
mircea_popescu: guy had a scamrecord a mile long, and always dumb shit like https://bitcointa.lk/threads/devianttwo-scammer.122455/
asciilifeform laboured under an impression that 'actual paedo' is a rather uncommon thing, and hence their over-representation in sc4mz0rd0m is something in need of a logical explanation
asciilifeform: but parsimonious hypothesis, imho, is that he was a chained, leashed paedo.
mircea_popescu: lmao that sounded like a divisive question.
asciilifeform: if signatures were expected, impersonation would be strictly a preet-stole-key-and-i-didnt-pull-pin-in-time matter.
mircea_popescu: perhaps this is what irks, such a clear statement of that inconvenient (but nevertheless true) fact
mircea_popescu: artifexd this is possible lol. but also a large number.
asciilifeform: i, for one, would much prefer to have there be not the slightest chance that a fuckwit claiming to speak as me, but sans my key, can be believed
artifexd: I start up my little process, it makes a connection to one or eight other people and it just works through the magic of maths.
artifexd: I had imagined #b-a but where everyone is ident'd all the time. No impersonating anyone else is remotely possible.
mircea_popescu: if anyone runs a mega node, his hardware is his problem
mircea_popescu: artifexd well, dunbar's number as a general rule.
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
asciilifeform: by way of a considerably simpler design
mircea_popescu: cause you're tryin to shoehorn nonchat uses of a chat network.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then put it in a pastebin
artifexd: I add the ip address to the key so when I start up, I have a place (or places) to look for you.
artifexd: As a currently running gossipd, if I get a connection request with "I'm bob. Here's proof", then I accept the connection and add that ip address to my list for that key. (For later connecting to him)
mircea_popescu: artifexd this could also work, as a handshakey sort of thing, sure.
artifexd: I would think that instead of a list of ip addresses you would have a list of pubkeys and each pubkey has one (or more) ip addresses assigned to it. When you start up gossipd, it calls out to all the ip addresses in the lists and says "I'm bob, proven by this signature. Prove you are alice, with cryptoproof". If the answering box responds appropriately, ☟︎
asciilifeform: i am quite ready to ephemeralkey-sign every line i have uttered in #b-a.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's merely meant to put chat on a sane footing.
mircea_popescu: and admitting everyone known is known to the same, high degree to warrant a connection.
asciilifeform still can't escape the feeling that hypothetical apparatus is a weapon, at least for the time being, that must be sharp enough to penetrate a particular tough grizzly hide if it is to carry on to being whatever it was meant to be...
mircea_popescu: artifexd a 1mbps connection, which is reasonably common in households, should be able to support maybe a few hundred connections.
asciilifeform: naggum had a piece where he confessed to thinking of 'open source' as a weapon, purpose-built for the destruction of a particular evil (microshit) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's a subplot i dun wanna enter into now - this is complex enough as it is - but suffice to say i am persuaded such situations are thermodynamiocally bound to narrow timespaces.
asciilifeform rather thinks that this is a military matter, where adversary can afford to ransack and search 100 houses but not 100,000, and hence his gathering bits of info - matters ☟︎
mircea_popescu: artifexd anywhere between a few dozen and a few thousands.
asciilifeform gets a distinct impression that mircea_popescu is still thinking of the adversary as being bound by laws, courts, procedures of evidence-gathering.
mircea_popescu: as far as it's in the form "either you or A X" the only answer is "i don't care."
mircea_popescu: but i also have little interest in fighting the narrowing down. that's not really a good use of time.
asciilifeform: or a series of nodes
asciilifeform: if he were to put a node in his pocket
asciilifeform: let's work out, using spec as given in mircea_popescu's article: what does an inquisitor know about a particular utterance
mircea_popescu: and i don't want "a degree" of deniability.
asciilifeform: we thus have a degree of deniability, about the same as in the case of no messages carrying signatures
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider: a subclass of private message where you ask a friend to pass along, to the 'room', some words.