asciilifeform: the age of petrol-to-food (however long that lasts) cancelled only that particular aspect of the conservation law

asciilifeform: when building pyramid, you aren't harvesting fields, and somehow somebody will have to eat a bit less.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even when free, there are finite things they can do

asciilifeform: sorta like an old cement warehouse, somehow infested with vermin. yes, must exterminate the vermin. but then what.

asciilifeform: 'construct a habitable planet'

asciilifeform: but only showed a vague sketch of how to solve the remaining half

asciilifeform: it solved approximately half the problem: 'kill the cruft'

asciilifeform: what work went on, was geared towards pedagogics

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it also did not help that scheme was used as a torture ritual in schools

asciilifeform: )

asciilifeform: (i.e. by force of army, by 'everyone else sucks so profoundly in comparison that there can be no debate', ...

asciilifeform: because required 1) someone to write it 2) who could 'win' on one of the roughly 5 'standard wins' that i outline in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=305

asciilifeform: ??

asciilifeform: it is, largely, this.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ought to look up precisely what it is that folks are trying to get out of when they sue to be formally expelled from usa citizenship

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229941 << similar system in usa. if you don't 'file tax', not only is there a fine levied, but the tax charged will be based on what usg 'thinks' you could have earned that year. ☝︎

asciilifeform: ^ not far from fact

asciilifeform: meaning, roughly, whether one can carry on doing it without borrowing/stealing something from somewhere outside the system under consideration

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229934 << nobody cancelled thermodynamics. the concept ultimately applies - to various degrees - to anything one might do. ☝︎

asciilifeform: so nubbins` or asciilifeform cannot play

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229957 << orlov's mafia development stage. this is available ~right now~ just as in 1880 cosa nostra. BUT they use an ethnic filter to keep out usg. (the only filter known to work semi-reliably, sadly) ☝︎

asciilifeform: (literally)

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229939 << speaking of naggum, recall that this is how he was taxed to death ☝︎

asciilifeform: hence naggum pissing on scheme as a 'pedo' language that is only loved by folks who like the embryonic stage of things when they have no wrinkles (by his lights)

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-08-2015#1229917 << a unified standard library never formed. a few implementation-specific fairly complete libraries - did, but the kind of folks attracted to scheme all turned nose at them (incl. me) - 'ewww, not orthogonal, not beautiful, not scheme at all' -- them (and me) ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://orwell.ru/library/articles/notes/english/e_notew << see also.

asciilifeform: long ago.

asciilifeform: space launch, si fab - no.

asciilifeform: mud bricks - can have.

asciilifeform: find me a fella willing to wear a gas suit and wash si in HF all day, every day, 'for the good of' something-or-other. ☟︎

asciilifeform: didn't really have a 'takeoff velocity'

asciilifeform: function of above.

asciilifeform: could be done 'on installment plan', aha.

asciilifeform: anyway this thread really cannot go anywhere without a mircea_popescu, so i will leave it here.

asciilifeform is roughly aware that the story of actual egyptian pyramids was rather more complicated

asciilifeform: while being costly

asciilifeform: the thing that makes the pyramid a pyramid, at least in a schoolbook example, is that it is not something anyone (but the king) actually ~wants~ that much

asciilifeform: just distributed another way.

asciilifeform: i contend that (b) necessarily involves the same amount of enslavement as (a)

asciilifeform: just to work out example on a napkin. say you, a king, want a pyramid built. could a) conscript ten thousand folks to work to death building it b) debase the currency and hire builders

asciilifeform: if anyone has the link (or if i hallucinated this existing) please say.

asciilifeform: i am now looking for the mircea_popescu article where he hypothesized that 'bezzle' is, without exception, born out of people doing things that are -ev on the large scale - in just the same way as elements heavier than iron are born in supernova

asciilifeform: mod6: neato!

asciilifeform: perhaps herbert's 'mentats', l0l ☟︎

asciilifeform: perhaps biological strange of some kind

asciilifeform: ask the folks in the alt-universe where vlsi didn't happen

asciilifeform: not a question for me

asciilifeform: and churning out those things

asciilifeform: to bring back to concretes, ussr could have done something else with the manpower they sank into cloning pdp, z80

asciilifeform: in a vain attempt to avoid being ground into mud

asciilifeform: and then run up other 'debts'

asciilifeform: the basic problem with -ev is not that eventually you run out of shitanium and unobtainium (though you will) but that you will be getting poorer, monotonically, and not realize precisely why

asciilifeform: orlov does conflate several unrelated phenomena (in particular, zooming into resource exhaustion to the exclusion of just about all other aspects of problem)

asciilifeform: 'This, then, should be the new main thrust of industrial activity: to manufacture and distribute products with the understanding that this process will run out of resources and stop. These products must be designed to outlive the process by which they are made, by as long as possible.'

asciilifeform: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/02/industrys-parting-gifts.html << quite obligatory.

asciilifeform: ditto anything else which requires vlsi

asciilifeform: practical outgrowth of this hypothesis is that, if it is true, quite likely that most of the cpu that will EVER be produced, have been produced.

asciilifeform: ^

asciilifeform: but if the treat is delicious enough, and bezzlatronics invented, the non-pay-er want-ers easily turn into borrowers.

asciilifeform: so it is not enough for there to be a market of want-ers. they also gotta be pay-ers

asciilifeform: it'd be rather like spacewalks

asciilifeform: but what if a dildo intrinsically cost more to make, energy/resource-wise, than the user could ever hope to repay ?

asciilifeform: i.e., people want dildoes. yes.

asciilifeform: note that 'people want computerz' is not enough for the industry to be +ev

asciilifeform: ~this~ is why just about every large ic maker in history has either gone broke or become a quasi-governmental entity

asciilifeform: re: ic thread: whole thing is kinda coming together in my skull. quite likely ~^^this^^~ is why it is impossible to borrow money to fund a computer-related anything, without a convincing plan to somehow pass the bezzle to a greater chump

asciilifeform: trinque: aha

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=04-08-2015#1223740 << see also. ☝︎

asciilifeform: and 'why did we collapse'

asciilifeform: but too much of this and - broke.

asciilifeform: all good and well, we all want toilets, condoms, cpus.

asciilifeform: sitting on the 'expense' side of the ledger for running civilization.

asciilifeform: something can well be ubiquitous, fun to have around, considered a basic element of civilization - and ultimately be -EV.

asciilifeform: in fact, they... well.

asciilifeform: ussr, for instance, just about broke its back producing ic (and cloned computers of various descriptions.) it is not clear that these paid for themselves, regardless of how you measure economic ☟︎

asciilifeform: it is conceivable the the entire ic age has been fueled by a continuously-rolling 'jam tomorrow' bezzle

asciilifeform: just to add to the already forming lsd trip in this thread: i'm not personally convinced that ic production HAS EVER BEEN +EV ☟︎

asciilifeform: !s hardcopy fpga

asciilifeform: nubbins`: afaik they STILL do

asciilifeform: very few folks seem to understand the full depth of this

asciilifeform: production of ic is an ~intensely, ruinously~ expensive affair, quite on par with space flight

asciilifeform: (and who am i to contend that they were wrong?)

asciilifeform: the perpetrators were convinced that the chumps were convinced that there is simply no other way.

asciilifeform: no one even tried to hide.

asciilifeform: heavily.

asciilifeform: afaik all without exception miner vendors did this.

asciilifeform: and front-mining.

asciilifeform: nubbins`: by fronting

asciilifeform: summary: nobody knows how to make selling computers +ev without the millions-of-planktonous-idiots market being involved somehow ☟︎

asciilifeform: and if attempted with any kind of scale, will make plutonium look cheap and plentiful in comparison.

asciilifeform: but this is very different from how the computer on everyone's desk was built

asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu suddenly feels like commissioning the production of an ic from own personal lunch money, who am i to discourage

asciilifeform: see also the old thread re: how no one ever, to date, non-fraudulently financed the production of a bitcoin miner.

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-08-2015#1229626 << at -ev? thing is, nobody ever invented 'reasonably priced electronics sold to sane people.' that is, no one has ever demonstrated the economic feasibility of this. the only kinds of computer sold in perhaps 25 years were: a) sold to chumps buying forced 'pr0gr3ssss' and b) so expensive everyone shits his pants ☝︎

asciilifeform: but it's all in the logz.

asciilifeform: not much

asciilifeform: hi nubbins`

asciilifeform: the subject swallows own arse, and either disappears in a flash of gamma rays, or becomes an adult computerist

asciilifeform: (describes not scheme per se, but walks the student through implementing scheme in scheme, and then implementing a detailed simulator for a machine which is the intrinsic minimum for executing scheme.)

asciilifeform: the book (lovingly referred to as sicp, 'sick pee') is a textbook illustration of precisely what i mean when i say 'fits in head'.