asciilifeform: erlehmann: 1) i have nfi what it does on corner cases 2) i have nfi how consistent is it across unixen, and how it misbehaves with, e.g., crapolade turdicode characters in the inputs

asciilifeform: ( what's a 'misproblem' ? let's say it is a problem that only exists because of misapplied concepts earlier 'up the stack' . see also the immortal prof. kokkarinen's 'alien problem', http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-26#934852 thread . ) ☝︎

asciilifeform: immutable past is a prerequisite to ~authenticable~ past, and v gives it.

asciilifeform: this is essential to v.

asciilifeform: but outputs of presses to OLD nodes -- will give same output 1000 yrs from now, as today.

asciilifeform: outputs of presses to ~new~ nodes, will, naturally, give unseen-before output.

asciilifeform: nope. outputs of presses to a given node on the flow - will NEVER change.

asciilifeform: not only sensible, but thermonukes away entire, as you see, ~classes~ of misproblem.

asciilifeform: want change ? that'll be a new patch, and 1 or more new sigs.

asciilifeform: that's the thing with v : inputs NEVER CHANGE

asciilifeform: why the fuck would it CHANGE ?!

asciilifeform: erlehmann: you DON'T TOUCH THE ALREADY CONVERTED ONES omfg

asciilifeform: ( and noshit.jpg, 'entire works of mankind as 1 tree' leads to 'infeasible in terms of time and computing power available' )

asciilifeform: and there are things in it that ought to be separate trees.

asciilifeform: if 'full builds are infeasible', your tree is mis-structured. ☟︎

asciilifeform: what's that got to do with whether a maketron ought to be able to do partial builds ?

asciilifeform: whereas small codebases build quickly enough that partial rebuilds are unnecessary.

asciilifeform: because i'm quite certain that the existence of large codebases is NOT justified.

asciilifeform: erlehmann: i'm not sure the existence of partial-builds is even justified.

asciilifeform: he explains it better than i ever did.

asciilifeform: erlehmann: indeed it does. read the source.

asciilifeform: somehow LEAVE MY MOTHERFUCKING BITSTREAM ALONE is not an option if you're transmitting 'ascii text'

asciilifeform: which in fact get mutilated by ~every piece of shit attached to the net

asciilifeform: and you would also have to not-disregard newlines

asciilifeform: so if you wanted to distinguish 'proper' vs 'bug' +++, you would have to make the grammar CONSIDERABLY more complicated, and transform the ENTIRE input text, and then un-transform it BACK, every time

asciilifeform: erlehmann: the +++ thing was actually a more serious problem than you might walk away thinking on first reading -- because it is physically impossible to fix it without MAKING NEWLINES SIGNIFICANT semantically

asciilifeform: maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but it'd take same, IF NOT GREATER, effort, for asciilifeform to ascertain the truth of this statement, as to rewrite the linked proggy

asciilifeform: erlehmann: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581252 << see thread, for instance. ☝︎

asciilifeform: erlehmann: that looks a lot like my original vdiff.

asciilifeform: but gotta remember, erlehmann , that one man's 'this is ON EVERY SYSTEM, motherfuckers, not an optional shitlib' is another's optional shitlib.

asciilifeform: nothing wrong with that.

asciilifeform: ... but not to need bourne shell ?

asciilifeform: in general, the tumour mass of 'i have 200 utils that do ~same thing on my box, and not a single one ~quite~ works entirely' is to be flamethrowered.

asciilifeform: one - proper one - suffices. and it is easier to produce from a generalized vtron, than to produce a vtron from, e.g., 'redo'.

asciilifeform: erlehmann: it isn't clear to me that these belong in separate programs, and that a system ought to have two tree walkers.

asciilifeform: ( so long as the signers, sign the hashes, and you still have a cryptographically healthy frozen history -- it is entirely acceptable to specify also how the inputs are to be produced. )

asciilifeform: but this is not intrinsic.

asciilifeform: current vtrons assume that all of the signed nodes exist on disk already.

asciilifeform: and they'd trigger, if hash not found immediately. and so you get a maketron.

asciilifeform: can easily have process invocations (e.g. compiler invokes) rather than filename-hash

asciilifeform: thing is, nowhere is it written that a v program ~must~ be a gnudiff-like thing

asciilifeform: if a vpatch refers to a hash of a nonexistent file, the process stops.

asciilifeform: erlehmann: what means to walk 'non-existence dependencies' ?

asciilifeform: was introduced right when moore's law first was beginning to sputter out, and new ways of bamboozling idiot new-iron chasers were being devised - 'let's up the clock speed but cut the work per-cycle', etc

asciilifeform: even on chips where it did not cause halt-and-catch-fire, it was always a sort of hardware equivalent of ye olde 'ramdoubler' scamola -- 'make luser think he has 2x the cores'

asciilifeform: but the generalized, correct incarnation of 'automatic dependency graph walker' is : v.

asciilifeform: gnumake is one of those turds that ~every serious user, eventually tries to rebuild, out of whatever is at hand, because of sheer barfalicity

asciilifeform: erlehmann: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674460 << 'redo' is theoretically neat ( at least when compared to gnumake ) but - and i studied it, since you last mentioned it - it strikes me as a near-miss attempt to invent 'v' ☝︎

asciilifeform: who was interviewed over email for this story, said he “cannot comment on individual decisions and personnel matters,” other than to say that all personnel matters were “handled in accordance with Institute HR policies.”' )

asciilifeform: ( https://archive.is/Tr9PF , linked within, also interesting : 'Led by IS&T’s vice president, John Charles, the ambitious reorganization began in February 2015 and aims to spur innovation through agile software development practices adopted from industry. Charles emphasizes that this is not a typical reorganization, but rather a complete transformation of MIT’s IT department. ... Many longtime employees have resigned ... Charles,

asciilifeform: great lulzfind, TomServo

asciilifeform: or, alternatively, desperate usg dod-like last gasp to keep massive fleet of winblows boxen properly declitorized and infibulated

asciilifeform: 'Instead of being renumbered into publicly-accessible IP ranges, IS&T is moving all of campus into RFC-1918 10/8 addresses, and enforcing the campus firewall, which will be made up of Palo Alto 7050 devices, which are best known for their deep-packet inspection feature, App-ID.' << ahahaha so it ~is~ about zapping unauthorized nonethertardium nodes etc

asciilifeform: 'Although the ranges sold initially were unused, IS&T announced that the entire upper half of MITnet would be sold, and that buildings would need to be renumbered.' << holy fuq mircea_popescu was right

asciilifeform: hey, they gotta keep inmat^H^H^H^H^Hstudents from hosting warez/trb/etc terrorisms somehow!1111

asciilifeform: until IS&T suddenly and unceremoniously decided to renumber all of campus onto a private, NAT'd address space. Some buildings have already been migrated, with same-day notice, causing outages of services hosted in those buildings.'

asciilifeform: 'Ever since IS&T started to undergo "The Transformation", there has been a deliberate and systematic attempt to change Computing at MIT for the worse. Services that have been relied on for years have been discontinued and turned down, frequently without notice. Infrastructure critical to running MIT has been outsourced to cloud services during "emergency maintenance". Most of these changes had minimal impact on students and faculty, ☟︎

asciilifeform: TomServo: lulzy. see also the infamous light bulb.

asciilifeform: proper gossipd, are in there.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-26#1674428 << fwiw i carefully read all of it. asciilifeform's verdict: very much a gabriel_laddel-ization of gossipd. does 0 of the necessary work, and drags in 5+GB of liquishit deps (python, sql, some derp's crypto lib.) the amount of this that would have to be rewritten, from the ground, is 100%. not even useful as illustration of anything, because NONE of the actually complicated moving parts of a ☝︎☟︎