log☇︎
16400+ entries in 0.113s
asciilifeform: Mocky: i in fact do not have objection to it either way, it is a stylistic decision for diana_coman & mircea_popescu , not mine to make ☟︎
Mocky: asciilifeform, assume for the sake of argument diana_coman said 'dun care about make use difficult, let them use whatever works', do you still have objection to that?
asciilifeform: Mocky: this is a q for diana_coman ? ( as i understand, it is meant to make the use of obsolete (currently published) client , moar difficult )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:41 asciilifeform: diana_coman: the conundrum from my pov is that why to bother with protections if 'so what if they break, not as if it does anything'
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the conundrum from my pov is that why to bother with protections if 'so what if they break, not as if it does anything' ☟︎
asciilifeform: diana_coman: right, but point was the futility of promisetronic 'protections'
asciilifeform: diana_coman: some folx are 'griefers' , neh, they will break just to break.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835371 ? ☝︎
asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform's pov re the retardation of 'open sores' , rms et al, is that they are tards not because they throw open the coad to allcomers but because they have no concept of wot , therefore were unable to conceptualize vtronics . ☟︎
asciilifeform: but imho this is a decision intimately for the folx who actually wrote the thing ( diana_coman , mircea_popescu ) , i've no skin in the game
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i don't see any problem with eulora making its src members-only ( whether l1 or the 2 people who actually work on it etc ) but will admit that i still don't see what it adds, other than ceremonially. the monkey herd can still plagiarize the existing published src .
ave1: diana_coman, nice write-up!
ave1: mircea_popescu, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/fzpXU/?raw=true
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:01 mircea_popescu: ave1 lobbes spyked http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/yTjUg/?raw=true
spyked: mircea_popescu, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834975 <-- http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/HCO37/?raw=true ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot'
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought of 1 far-conveyor item where i actually had it in my notes 'to be for l1 encyclical only' -- the shortwave repeater
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: the evident disadvantage is that this only works if we can rely on l1 to keep a secret ; which means things (such as, that it can't be as big, for instance).
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: as we're contemplating an eulora client rewrite, i am contemplating the following code release paradigm : client author a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ; b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers.
lobbes: !Qlater tell mircea_popescu http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/jrVAh/?raw=true
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: as we're contemplating an eulora client rewrite, i am contemplating the following code release paradigm : client author a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ; b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers.
mod6: have fun, mircea_popescu
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 17:44 mircea_popescu: Mocky http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 17:43 diana_coman: there's the golden goose too! and for that matter there was that "pay the oracle to give you answers" event for all the good it did
asciilifeform: possibly this is the root of disagreement -- asciilifeform takes mircea_popescu's old warning of 'just say no to any dealings with the malignantly stupid poor'(tm)(r) to heart, doesn't deal with the '50%', doesn't need them for anything whatsoever
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought the eulora model was 'proprietary server, 9000 clients' ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ? ☟︎
mod6: Another scenario that I was kind of thinking about is where: Lord X encrypts $src_code, drops it into deedbot, and $src_code is encyptped to {a,b,c,d}. Upon a future date, person 'a', is drummed out and neg-rated. Nothing stops person 'a' from still decypting that $src_code with his key, neg-rated or not. This is not wholly differnt than before... just saying that there's no "backsies".
mod6: Well, my fear is that: Lord X encypts $src_code, to {a,b,c,d} ; as was said before, it would be impossible to tell if $src_code was leaked by X, or a,b,c or d. (This was stated earlier too).
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought of 1 far-conveyor item where i actually had it in my notes 'to be for l1 encyclical only' -- the shortwave repeater ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:51 mircea_popescu: i dunno specifically ; im not sure he ever said.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:01 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is of course the fact that l1 is neither for life nor perhaps yet all that difficult to get in and out - I don't know whether this is a l1 matter or a s.mg board matter
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated shinohai 3 at 2017/04/15 14:13:48 << The Right Honorable Baron Titsbare
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated Framedragger 4 at 2017/04/15 14:15:10 << His Lordship the Lord Scanner
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated jurov 5 at 2016/05/17 03:25:03 << his lordship the lord treasurer.
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated davout 5 at 2016/05/17 03:24:29 << his lordship the master of common pleas.
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu once suggested something not entirely dissimilar .
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque )
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo do you have a guestroom/bed anything btw ? << I have a place to put a surface for guest accomodations
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he has a http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/06/26/and-then-there-was-light/ . definitely looks to have room for sleeping bag.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is common problem in fiction
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i see binaries as a cache for src . ( exactly in fact how emacs sees it. ) and thereby i have approx same interest in downloading and running bins built by ~others~ , as in stuffing food they have pre-digested somehow into my own gut, bypassing mouth
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:31 mircea_popescu: i have to fucking compile every thing the 9000th time, i can't just put binary images on my 9001th rockchip ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was. and '9000' other tales.
lobbesbot: Logged on 2015-08-08 05:20:40: <mircea_popescu> there's even bezzle magic goldbags
mircea_popescu: diana_coman entirely my arbitrary call. i'll put whatever strings in there i put, and well... what can you do.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think i actually grasp this
mircea_popescu: diana_coman it does, yes.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman you can ask for whatever you'd ask, neh ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, tbh I keep thinking that I'd rather have at least someone in l1 signing a binary before I run it but I'm not even sure that makes sense atm without imposing therefore on l1 to build the binary
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu pointed out, i do same thing on numerous occasion
asciilifeform: i dun actually have any problem with idea of trade secret, where mircea_popescu & diana_coman keep their server to themselves under pillow etc.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman no, he means he spent 20 years with the retards, ended up soaking in inept notions about "intellectual property"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is possible that i misread the entire thread, but my understanding was that it was about considering the idea of no longer defaulting to open publication of e.g. cuntoo
asciilifeform: diana_coman: idea being, secrets have a place, if i did not believe this i would not have any interest in crypto. but their place is ~where must~, not ~wherever possible~
mircea_popescu: diana_coman on re-read, i agree, suboptimal wording on my part (owing, principally, to lack of terminology)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is precisely because i do not see a public outside of l1, that i regard the idea of 'l1-only publications' as in most cases wrongheaded
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, exactly; it was for Mocky's Mocky> maybe share only with those who have specific interest / aligned interest
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:01 mircea_popescu: ave1 lobbes spyked http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/yTjUg/?raw=true
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: with hygrometer at 80% mark where i sit, i would also like some sahara air. but prolly not for perma-habitation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we, also, expect some wet in air. hence why mircea_popescu in cr not in sahara.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand they ain't ants, they are wired for 'food is to be looked for in immediate vicinity, when hungry'. think 'grasshopper', not 'ant', in aesopian terminology.
asciilifeform: aha, mircea_popescu earlier posted some serious crabs
phf: mircea_popescu: playstation was/is backwards compatible, i'm not sure about xbox, could also be
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'll admit that i'm utterly innocent of consolism, with the exception of 1 occasion where i purchased an ancient 'virtual buy' to cut, with hacksaw, apart for the optics
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly tangentially, have you ever been tempted to distribute eulora as a physical device ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the correct pill re 'dynamic' is simply to cut the dynamic loader nonsense out of cuntoo once and for all.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman note that "binary identity" is not even necessary a premise. you can go "hey shithead, why the fuck are you linking dynamic mysql when there's been a static one for five years". or w/e. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: diana_coman you see the code he deeded and see can't reproduce. so now you two have something to talk about
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well because say mocky does the release. ima frown if his release sucks, and he doesn't want that ; and his toolchain is to be expected better than literally rando camwhore's, "i dunno how kleopatra works". neh ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that so far, at least as visible from my tower, i've succeeded in this. whereas if i had distributed the whole kit in february of 2016, to kako et al, chances are that wouldn't.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, how do we "control binaries" though?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i suspect the folx who stole phuctor v.1 and v.2 src discovered, and prolly not much surprise to anybody else, phuctor is not a fully automatic mechanism. it requires asciilifeform's hands , applied on fairly regular basis, to function correctly. sorta like phf's logtron, for instance.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: earlier in this thread i did shed some light re why.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if 'who leak to, goats?' then why spend even a penny on effort to pass around srcballs 'in confidence' ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you not see a diff b/w bins that were built under your control, and those where not ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because it is a wholly unnecessary point of weakness.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot' ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: 3. very clearly quashes the idiocy of rms-ism AND ers-ism ("open source" bla bla), and makes the strong political statement that indeed there is a difference between nose breathers and mouthbreathers and so on.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: this release paradigm has the advantages that 1. permits us to control binaries, which means stuff like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834888 (which i'm very much impressed with, btw) ; 2. permits to reserve some interest for the author, because the strategic thinking over at minigame is that we'll want client competition (from skinning all the way to all the way) and remuneration by installs (hence all that hash dance in
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is possible to have confidence with individual people , but imho a mistake to operate on same model with group.
asciilifeform: i don't specifically know how mircea_popescu proposes to limit distribution of src . but , say, l1-ciphered encyclicals would count
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it gained whatever cost was saved by not screwing around with encrypted downloads or whatever other futile attempts to make water unwet
mircea_popescu: diana_coman that part is coincidental ; it just happened that the first candidate for testing this paradigm happened to be owned by minigame.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, q really is why l1 ? basically what does l1 have to do with eulora directly?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure . but what does it then mean to ask someone to keep a secret, if even verifying the keeping of the promise is impossible ( much less 'enforce' ) ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cost -- 'opposability' -- mircea_popescu gives me a magic proggy, nao i have to guard it and be answerable for loss
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is of course the fact that l1 is neither for life nor perhaps yet all that difficult to get in and out - I don't know whether this is a l1 matter or a s.mg board matter ☟︎
phf: mircea_popescu: that was a markov chain comment, that came out of "we already have proprietary code"
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, ah, that helps actually - I think I'm getting a better idea of what you're aiming at
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun have any ideological allergy to 'proprietary proggy', but must point out that the historical examples are uninspiring, pretty much erryone who was specifically trying to win from limiting distribution of sores, did not win, quite the opposite.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman to whatever he wants to pursue. be it "you fucking assholes" or whatever else.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: deedbot gives iron pill against disputes of priority, without keeping any kind of seekrit
asciilifeform: i guess the part i dun grasp, is what exactly mircea_popescu would wish to accomplish by making a proprietary proggy & distributing src to anointed folx
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, suppose for a minute that someone not in l1 etc comes with a reasonably-close copy of one of those secret-code clients; does that mean l1 leaked or what?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-25 21:45 asciilifeform: (1) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/ida/cr50_fritz_ro_sig.png (2) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/ida/cr50_fritz_hitler_enforcer.png (3) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/ida/cr50_fritz_hitler_enforcement_businessend.png (4) http://www.loper-os.org/pub/c101pa/ida/cr50_fritz_pinned_pubs.png ☟︎
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated Mocky 3 at 2018/05/21 06:31:29 << Mocky Habeeb. Wrote a book on Amazon DB ; works for infraWise (which is pretty lulzy, but don't hold it against him).