log☇︎
120000+ entries in 0.066s
asciilifeform: i will admit to being at a loss what 'http dht' might mean.
trinque: sure, but this is the most general piece of information you get out of HEAD, the status code response
asciilifeform: ( which is great, but imho other thread.. )
asciilifeform: trinque: yer thinking of moar along the lines of dht, as i understand, rather than www-style server
asciilifeform: and say you see that the 512b hash ~did~ change. then you ask for 'hash of left half , hash of right half' of tree. see which changed. etc. ~= binarysearch.
trinque: maybe I don't want it; I want to tell my friend I know somebody who has
trinque: I ask you whether you have the hash. Is this the same request as "give me $hash"?
mod6: asciilifeform: 'sane manifest' =~ <+asciilifeform> then it oughta be in sections, and the sections in small manifest. merkle-style. ?
asciilifeform: trinque: sane manifest would be when you can, e.g., fetch 512bits of merkleroot hash and know that nothing in the whole box changed since last time
trinque: lets say for a moment we're designing the http-dht-tron. I have a hash, do not have the item.
asciilifeform: even microshit seems to
trinque: even manifest doesn't need to churn that much, but can sure.
asciilifeform: ( and yes i get it, for existing www, it's the only working knob, aside from get-with-0 )
phf: asciilifeform: because i don't remember specific names. the experience is not uncommon, because "interrupted download, let me try restarting from the middle" fails more frequently than not
asciilifeform: trinque: that's reasonable. but imho really oughta be done with sane manifests.
trinque offering use of HEAD to minimize churn on distfile server from teh same place
phf: i'm talking from personal experience and in good faith
asciilifeform: well i thought we were having an argument, with facts...
phf: no you can't, i'm not on trial here to do discovery for you
asciilifeform: do you talk to ebcdic boxes also ?
phf: oh get the fuck out of here
asciilifeform: who has a server like this ? why do you talk to them ?
asciilifeform: now that's fuckedup ☟︎
phf: and some have them explicitly disabled
asciilifeform: it would seem that it can do both of these
phf: so i've used HEAD before, but not in a batch process. i use it frequently for two purposes, one is to verify that the request goes through and server is prepared to send me data. the other is to request file metadata before i start pulling it, i have a curl alias for that.
asciilifeform: why should there be a knob for pinoys ?
asciilifeform: i dun even propose to kill HEAD because it is complicated to implement -- it isn't, as i understand. but because 'nobody but pinoys ever seemed to issue a HEAD at asciilifeform's www, in decade+' ☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: it cannot be helped ( while retaining the basic compat ) that they made '0 means anal'
trinque: my statement was that yes ^ and also for the logs "you wouldn't design something where $giveMeNoneOfIt implicitly means a metadata fetch" ☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: i don't dispute that http is trisomy victim. q is, can the brute be properly lobotomized and harnessed and do useful work with minimal overseering expense .
phf: i thought you're answering trinque's point
trinque: if it did that, yes, but you don't have a fixed headers length in http
trinque: if you tell me offset 0 range 0 I should ignore you entirely ☟︎
trinque: the range idea is the sort of reductive compromise that's both a fine thing in reducing complexity and completely incorrect if designing from scratch
asciilifeform: every knob in every spec that adds complexity, should have to defend itself, rather than be accepted 'because every walker is preshus'
phf: well, that's like saying that the mass of reditards don't follow specs so nor should we
asciilifeform: re HEAD, i began with the observation that 10+ yrs of reading UNPROCESSED www logs of my site, shows that HEAD is issued by no human browser ever, and in fact comes solely from obvious (in other ways) malware wormprobes
asciilifeform: trying to determine ~which~ heathenisms actually need
asciilifeform: phf: incidentally, why can't you achieve same effect as HEAD by using the 'chunked' feature of GET ?
BingoBoingo: So there is a vendor to vendor element of buyer beware.
phf: "please be ready to send me this 1tb file, just kidding i only want 50b of headers"
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: that loox moar like it. can these be had ? << It is a sorts local Amazon/Craigslist combination. Stuff there appears attainable.
asciilifeform: imho having HEAD is like calling a radio station and asking them to turn their volume down
phf: in general though, as is obvious from name, head return same headers that get would return, but without the content
asciilifeform: the first two, get answered if i GET-and-immediately-abort . nao let's have an example of the last ?
phf: head specifically answers ctime of file, size of file and any additional stuff that server might deem useful to provide in form of (likewise protocol essential rfc headers)
phf: "what if anything changed" is not the only question that head answers
trinque: yeah, arguable there's a saner way to get metadata, harder to argue getting metadata by itself isn't useful
asciilifeform: rather than per-file
phf: fwiw http protocol is built around verbs on resources, cutting head is going to remove the specific mechanism you're dispatching to, but not the dispatch mechanism itself (that you still need for e.g. POST)
asciilifeform: phf: imho 'what, if anything changed' is a q that oughta be answered by a mechanism that can do it, when (as often is) wanted for the ~entire site~ compactly ☟︎
phf: i mean, i can see the argument for "no head", but it's one of those cases where "if we don't have head, we'll have to invent it", with e.g. manifests, or cgi scripts that you can use to query for changes, etc. but why not let resource answer things about itself as part of protocol rather than everyone for themselves?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-18 19:49 asciilifeform: anyone ever tempted to revive gopher ?
phf: last time it was brought up was probably due to me, since i was looking into hipster gopher revival that's going on (was going on?)
a111: Logged on 2017-11-23 16:20 phf: re upstack, there's been a resurgence of sorts of gopher protocol, various hipsters spinning up personal websites, etc. whether the resurgence was shortlived or i'm just late to the game, but there's already a community of wreckers (one of them groups is coming from this federated twitter platform, mastodon) discussing all the various ways that they want to "improve" gopher, tls, utf-8, markdown renderer, "minimal subset of html", etc. but at the same
asciilifeform: pretty sure we had a gopher thread
asciilifeform: or are these 'pre importation price'
phf: that would be congruent with the russian practice
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: that loox moar like it. can these be had ?
asciilifeform: phf: i strongly suspect that nobody but gringo rubes ever order from these Official catalogues, or pay ANY vat, EVER ☟︎
asciilifeform: ( and lol they do have ~1~ samsung in the catalogue : a 128GB msata ! )
phf: i suspect local orcs have alternative paths for procurement, was sop in russia in the 90s. you could go to "official dealer" type place and pay 10x, or you would haggle for price at Gorbushka, bazar style ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: or the used-condom quality sandisk ?
asciilifeform: also BingoBoingo wtf, they don't sell samsung -- i.e. the only ssd worth using
BingoBoingo: And to see if they can get Opteron shit
BingoBoingo: TomServo: This is why I am emailing. See if I can get that shit knocked off
asciilifeform: TomServo: picture trying to ~get~ this support.
TomServo: There appears to be "- 36 MONTHS PROSUPPORT AND NBO ON-SITE SERVICE" included in the price, which - shouldn't be required, right?
asciilifeform: for comparison, 24core opteron with 256G ram , with 4 ssd disks ( 1TB total , 750 after raid ) , and with the raid card, costs me still < 1700. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> holyfuq, konsoomer towers in racks in dc << Cargo cult ☟︎
asciilifeform: holyfuq, konsoomer towers in racks in dc
BingoBoingo: Well, other racks seem to have a lot of towers. My suspicion on the rack mount equipment is the ever popular trip to Miami route.
trinque: BingoBoingo: what's "appear"? how did other people put boxes in their racks?
BingoBoingo: trinque: They appear to be banging their heads talking directly to supermicro
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> or is this what it all ends up costing after the extortionate tax..? << The +IVA means the price is before the tax. Gets hit with a duty when it hits the border, shipping here doesn't seem to have a trivial cost, and something like the label printer there just might not be anyone else selling. But $495 for a $300 in the US ubiquity Edgerouter Pro isn't too bad http://www.palser.com/productos/productos_masinfo.php?id=17661
trinque: BingoBoingo: any recommendations from the DC themselves?
trinque: ...surely this datacenter has servers in it? that someone bought?
asciilifeform: supposing the shipments get through -- yes
trinque: BingoBoingo: looking like it'd be way cheaper to ship
asciilifeform: i'd even be satisfied with something exactly like BingoBoingo's link httpd but minus the nulltermed pointeristic string warcrime. (i.e. direct adaization)
trinque tries to remember if chunked transfer encoding is both ways with http, or only a response thing ☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: pretty much anything on the existing iron is wartime compromise.
trinque: it's just gonna be a sad experience, since it has to be a wartime compromise
asciilifeform: mod6: not, sadly, practical with tcp at all
trinque: yeah, well, that isn't stateless is it
asciilifeform: the 'postel's law' nonsense, of silently forgiving people who send liquishit at the dusty disused corners of the protocol, enabling there to even ~be~ such a thing as dusty corners in a protocol!, MUST die. ☟︎☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: likewise i do not ever want to see FARTs.
asciilifeform: just like you don't want to write fs code that knows what inodes are
asciilifeform: i want to write proggy with zero httpism baked in. is whole point of a library.
asciilifeform: or is this what it all ends up costing after the extortionate tax..?
trinque: can put "FART" in the method header now, if you like
asciilifeform: is this thing connected through a timewarp into 1990s ?
trinque: in a library http server, one wouldn't implement "HEAD" anyway, would just pass the headers as a structure to w/e handling function, which shits what it likes
BingoBoingo: And routers, and not jungle cargo cult "Why would you want a network that isn't WiFi?" inventory selection
asciilifeform: trinque: that's exactly the kind of thing i wouldn't do. my hypothetical http serv would be strictly for fully adatronic app. like hunchentoot in cl world.
asciilifeform: 1 , the subhuman simian kind, where duct tape is added. other -- when screaming living flesh is removed, as necessary.
trinque: to host mp-wp for instance, gonna have to either implement fcgi, cgi, or http proxy back to other http server
trinque spent enough in the mines *not* to want to fix http
asciilifeform: ( granted this is a bigger bite to swallow ... )