asciilifeform: which is how they end up behaving like plankton, and living and dying with the tide.
asciilifeform: merchants - for good or ill - live in the 'now'.
asciilifeform: can't speak for others, generally i like to be in the business of supplying moon biters, but also would not mind giving idiots gigantic guns with which to shoot themselves.
asciilifeform: somehow stephenson absorbed every possible poison from reddit etc. in past few years.
asciilifeform: phf: the b00k sucked in ways that are difficult to even put into words.
asciilifeform: hanbot: i was defending this pov for past 2hrs, apparently to quite deaf ears.
asciilifeform: trinque: this doesn't solve the ~expectation~ problem
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: here is i think where we disagree irreconcilably, 99% of everything i learned that i see as worth knowing came from dead folx.
asciilifeform: there are several quite obvious scenarios where 1) i would like a reliable picture of what someone else rated 2) it is impractical to converse. one, discussed earlier, is death. another -- long voyages, at sea, on the run from nazis, with partizans in the forest, etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what means 'with a view of it being opposable to the maker' ?
asciilifeform: with pubkey crypto it is possible to make a rigorous reality with tall buildings in it, with steel frames, instead of this ubiquitous liquishit.
asciilifeform: (as in the 'old ratings shown to man trapped in cave' scene.)
asciilifeform: my basic problem with unsigned-ratings is that enemy can fabricate a fictional me from WHOLE CLOTH rather than being stuck with selected pieces of what i actually did.
asciilifeform: i'ma let trinque illustrate, since my current understanding is that he sees the pov, and it is easier to have socratic thread with 2 rather than 3
asciilifeform: i am beginning to suspect that different folx want different and possibly incompatible things from the concept of wot.
asciilifeform: mats: i dunno that many folx walk around with notions of 'thousand year reich' directly present in their heads. but 'will last long enough for ME' is probably common delusion.
asciilifeform: mats: and every other obligation usg will gleefully default on, like fdr on his gold bonds
asciilifeform: mats: from the nonexistent 'retirements' the owed money was to supposedly pay for.
asciilifeform: and my rating ' mircea_popescu : +9999: best buddy, died in vietnam but not forgotten , my only trustworthy supplier of mersenne primes, there shall be no more but those he signed for me ' is equally 'fact' and certifiable as any rng bit
asciilifeform: sooo pray tell why the transformator that can turn rng bits into fact, breaks its teeth against a rategram.
asciilifeform: even if no one knows wtf i thought i was doing .
asciilifeform: i'm with trinque re 'a signed opinion is a fact.' if i take 1TB from my rng and sign it, that is a perma-fossilized piece of my volition.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: for all you know, i can decrypt by sending via diode into the nuke vault, but to SIGN i gotta take the rocket out to access the modulus.
asciilifeform: the way i read danielpbarron's thought, was that he sees 'rater' as necessarily a living entity ready to carry on conversation.
asciilifeform: it is not so hard to preserve a few kBit permanently.
asciilifeform: or maybe i graffiti'd it on the moon. or in corpses in group photo in afghan. wherever.
asciilifeform: phf: you would simply need to HAVE ASKED me 20 years ago for pubkey.
asciilifeform: yes, it is ~impossible to make a robot-who-rates , with tech as i currently understand it. does not change the fact that perma-ratings are a fundamentally stronger building material than 'go and ask him and see if he feels like telling you the truth'
asciilifeform: (leaving aside that there is no effective means for securing a private key at a datacentre box )
asciilifeform: but picture , for instance, if phuctor bot rated keys that were phuctored, in the moment of.☟︎
asciilifeform: this example is only an example in so far as it would be a pretty pointless mechanism
asciilifeform: phf: the thinking is that nobody should be able to create an asciilifeform-signed vpatch after he is dead. omfg, this is hard concept?!
asciilifeform: a sig is a tool of the dead as well as of the living.
asciilifeform: (absolutely mandatory reading for this thread imho, and it is unfortunate that the piece was lost in the cacophony of the bbet disaster)
asciilifeform: keep in mind, in a fully gossiptronic wot as pictured by danielpbarron , your knowledge of anything outside of your l1 is ~0.
asciilifeform: but it is not clear to me that this wins more than it costs.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron , i think, also believes in mechanized shunning, but takes it further yet, and would like to deny enemy access to ratings also
asciilifeform: it is how we build a universe with semi-permeable walls, vermin on one side, people - on other.
asciilifeform: all of asciilifeform's tech, v, yet-unreleased items, resolve ultimately to it.
asciilifeform: weaponized shunning is the only effective weapon.
asciilifeform: i would like to hear some kind of logical counter to this statement. and still have not.
asciilifeform: phf: if pubkey is preserved, and privkey of dead man -- well-destroyed, suddenly the 'donation of constantine' problem evaporates.☟︎
asciilifeform: but fuhrer wisely replied, 'it is true, we must think about how to leave good ruins, no one lives forever.'
asciilifeform: table fell silent, because omfg defeatism wtf
asciilifeform: during dinner with hitler et al, speer (among other things, reichsminister of architecture) made a comment about 'one problem, our concrete houses will leave very poor ruins'☟︎
asciilifeform: reminds me of tale from albert speer's book about ruins
asciilifeform: not one of you is taking seriously the 'how to leave a good looking and proper corpse' problem, are you.
