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mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835611 << no ; the idea is that there will be separation between objective costs of running (passed on to the client in the shape of food necessities to keep character alive -- starve it long enough and it dies) and the implicitly risky nature of euloran activity. i don't want to get into detail here, but i believe it's the correct approach, allocation, rather than trying a pauschal approac ☝︎

mircea_popescu: the fact that asciilifeform hasn't to date read the (published) eulora client source doesn't cost ~ asciilifeform ~ anything. it costs minigame something, presumably.

mircea_popescu: lol i misread, "it costs for instance that you don't want to travel with laptop."

asciilifeform: impersonal. the folx other than mircea_popescu , whose travel lappy doesn't go in diplo pouch and guarded in hotel by squad of musketeers.

asciilifeform: it costs for instance that you don't want it on travel lappy etc.

asciilifeform: hanbot: nobody cancelled 'need to know'(tm) and other traditional mechanisms of prolonging life of seekritz. but i find it worrisome that mircea_popescu seems to think that keeping coad confidential doesn't cost anything. it does cost.

hanbot: anyway no, i don't see a way out of the "problem".

asciilifeform: hanbot: of all the possible problems, i can't picture how this, enemy already has all the incentive one could wish for to 'try to work into l1'

hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << one think i haven't seen mentioned yet is that this creates a potential security risk, inasmuch as there'd be a real incentive for bad actors to attempt working their way into l1 solely to gain access to source code. ☝︎

asciilifeform: didn't we also have a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687603 thread ? ☝︎

mircea_popescu: basically you read words and expect they mean imperial meanings. but they fucking don't.

mircea_popescu: i mean... so mocky makes a client, i see his client works, i allocate his binaries signatures, and now evilmocky does what ? doesn't follow server comms spec ? can't connect. is smart enough to follow them, and puts the work in ? can connect, server will report expected hashes. does he distribute this thing, so user can see the hash of his program and the hash the program tells the server don't match ? suppose he does. what n

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835563 << i can't imagine how this could ~even in principle~ be broken. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:05 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835659 << iirc allegro was moar complicated than this, tho tbf i am unsure whether less or ~more~ scammy . it was a nonfixed price (no cost for src actually but had to 1) be existing customer and 2) sign seekricy contract ) and price of being customer in turn wasn't 'fixed' ( 'lispworks' co. iirc charged royalties ) . as for 'specified', this was 1 of the rare products where yes specified ( common l ☝︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: all modern evil in the field flows from this original sin of the idiots involved, and no it shan't be passed in silence. had they done this right and equally flunked all other parts as they did flunk them, we'd still be mostly-right rather than thoroughly-broken today.

a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 17:15 mircea_popescu: but anyway, back to the upstream : https://archive.is/9zD8D#selection-9.3336-9.4865 the whole thing is rather damaging of bernstein's own standing and credibility. he engages in this sort of behaviours, he isn't much of a man, and certainly the sordid tale of his misbehaviour disabused me of any intention of rating him on the basis of his work.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder ☝︎☟︎☟︎

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835525 << man alone ; just because they fail at anything they try doesn't mean much. of course they do, that's precisely how we ended up with the turdsoup. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:53 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835039 <-- this imho doesn't make asciilifeform an idiot, it makes user responsible for whatever setup he runs the binary on. the same guarantee would be given for hypothetical linux kernel with changed abi as for mswindows kernel. as much as the word of heathens are not to be trusted, heathen did promise e.g. https://archive.is/KD183#selection-248.64-248.65 . so imho misbehaving kernel will just be

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835516 << you don't take my meaning. the machine doesn't care about your political corectness. it only sees those people involved that are actually people. if your dog shits in my lawn im not gonna complain to dog ; and if idiot miscompiles code into a pile of shit, the machine's mute sadness will not be directed at idiot. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-05 16:40 mircea_popescu: current gear can't deal with pulse piracy

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:35 diana_coman: it can compile it as much as it wants, server won't answer for one thing

diana_coman: I didn't even realise there was some way to see it as protection against ...what? code copying or what?

diana_coman: because I seriously doubt that it can't be broken so why do you bother locking it?

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ?

diana_coman: it can compile it as much as it wants, server won't answer for one thing ☟︎

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i don't see any problem with eulora making its src members-only ( whether l1 or the 2 people who actually work on it etc ) but will admit that i still don't see what it adds, other than ceremonially. the monkey herd can still plagiarize the existing published src .

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:19 mod6: I'm saying in the instance of inquisition. I don't think there is any way to separate a willful liar from someone who lost control of their key.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:24 Mocky: if shortwave repeater was in l1 confidence and one day i became l1, i wouldn't see having to keep that secret as a burden.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:47 mod6: Maybe a "developer license" isn't a bad idea either. Could raise some capital, and constrain the source code to those who promise not to share it and who want/need it.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:58 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835450 <-- how about http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455082 though? still very much subject to w4r3z, sure, but otherwise didn't end in tears.

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835450 <-- how about http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455082 though? still very much subject to w4r3z, sure, but otherwise didn't end in tears. ☝︎☝︎☟︎

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835039 <-- this imho doesn't make asciilifeform an idiot, it makes user responsible for whatever setup he runs the binary on. the same guarantee would be given for hypothetical linux kernel with changed abi as for mswindows kernel. as much as the word of heathens are not to be trusted, heathen did promise e.g. https://archive.is/KD183#selection-248.64-248.65 . so imho misbehaving kernel will just be ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: the evident disadvantage is that this only works if we can rely on l1 to keep a secret ; which means things (such as, that it can't be as big, for instance).

mod6: Maybe a "developer license" isn't a bad idea either. Could raise some capital, and constrain the source code to those who promise not to share it and who want/need it. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: no i didn't mean right now

Mocky: if shortwave repeater was in l1 confidence and one day i became l1, i wouldn't see having to keep that secret as a burden. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: anyway, it's altogether doubtful that this naive model of imperial "progress" ever applied to software. i don't expect lcients to become ever better over time.

mircea_popescu: Mocky well in thsi case, because the barrier to entry is a major destroyer of interest. maybe if he can read at cost 0 he reads and if he can read at cost epsilon, he doesn't.

Mocky: i don't see it as a problem for the client writer. to the contrary i would expect clients to get regular updates and older versions less useful relatively over time. but maybe asciilifeform doesn't care about eulora at all, why involve when only possible involvement 'suspected of leak'?

mod6: I'm saying in the instance of inquisition. I don't think there is any way to separate a willful liar from someone who lost control of their key. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: if your lunch were gone from your brown paper bag you wouldn't suspect me, you'd suspect someone who worked there. and ?

mod6: well, any defendant of such an accusation would have to ask Lordship to /believe/ they didn't do it; not sure how they would ask Lordship to /verify/ they are telling the truth.

mircea_popescu: i suppose. though honestly, what is it, don't decrypt the deed, it'll sit there.

Mocky: this makes sense to me. the only thing i have against it is asciilifeform and mod6 argument about the burden of keeping secrets. while I don't see the proposed method as actually burdensome, i see the argument in the general case

Mocky: asciilifeform, i dont' even see it as an issue of paying for software: the paying or not doesn't need to differ from the case where minigame writes the official client

mod6: I figured, can't really help it with the old client. Was thinking maybe there is a new one in the works with some stuff that need not be open sores.

mircea_popescu: well, there's obviously a published server protocol, as well as the old client... these don't constitute ?

mircea_popescu: it is however not the customer's problem that the fair price point for borland whatever is 0.0006 except borland can';t chage that because must be 9.95 or else visa monopoly throws a fit. ☟︎

asciilifeform: my point was that if he's a monkey and can't or won't conceptualize the diff, he will play obamalora no matter what

asciilifeform: unless, again, i misread , what's contemplated is to somehow make 'fetlife female morons' who won't pgp and won't drop winblowz etc use an authenticated piece of soft, somehow ( something that e.g. banks have not been able to accomplish )

asciilifeform: possibly this is the root of disagreement -- asciilifeform takes mircea_popescu's old warning of 'just say no to any dealings with the malignantly stupid poor'(tm)(r) to heart, doesn't deal with the '50%', doesn't need them for anything whatsoever

mod6: I see this as even beyond the Eulora scenario, stretching out to any TMSR~ source; I just don't see a good way to solve it right now, other than being selective with who gets rights to see the $src.

asciilifeform: mod6: can you think of a fraudulent scenario that isn't handled by simple vtronics and actually requires seekrit coad ?

asciilifeform: mod6: my original disagreement in $thread wasn't re 'sometimes gotta try to limit distribution to l1' -- it is very easy to think of cases where this is the obvious Right Thing -- but in re eulora client in particular, i still dun see what the eulora folx have to keep seekrit in the client ( i.e. what problem do 'heathens produce shoddy client' create, that ordinary pgp signature doesn't solve )

mod6: I'd like to say, that I don't think that it's an over all /bad/ idea, I'm just not sure if it's a good idea either. I think this might just be a case-by-case basis.

mircea_popescu: i dunno, i wouldn't use any online banking thing that didnt'; checksum

mircea_popescu: this isn't some sort of banana republic, where it's either go president or get shot.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ? ☟︎

mircea_popescu: consider the case at hand. i dunno if you've read the proposed protocol etc, but suppose it happens with euclient. so recognized owner creates a new set of binaries (i dunno, moves a class around say) and i use the new hashes for server, and so the leaker gets what exactly ? client for a server that won't talk to it ?

mod6: I've been trying to see how this doesn't end up with a bunch of finger-pointing once someone's source code is inevitably leaked. (If it can happen, it will happen.)

mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << ack. There are certain projects that I can see the benefits of this. There are others where I can see it doesn't fit. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: danielpbarron anyway, the goal isn't specifically client competition. but it seems to me it's a necessary possibility.

a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:01 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is of course the fact that l1 is neither for life nor perhaps yet all that difficult to get in and out - I don't know whether this is a l1 matter or a s.mg board matter

mircea_popescu: they give vacations where you work, like everywhere else, don't they ?

Mocky: asciilifeform, not everywhere if you don't see cute in asian or african

a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:31 mircea_popescu: i have to fucking compile every thing the 9000th time, i can't just put binary images on my 9001th rockchip ?!

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this was the guy with the hour, wans';t he ?

diana_coman: I suspect for fun eulora can even sell 1 secret every 10 years and it won't hurt much, lol

mircea_popescu: the usual eulora client luser won't ask for anything before runnign any binary they can get hands on.

mircea_popescu: i still don't know what promise is supposede to have been made!

mircea_popescu: i still don't see what this expense is to be here.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wasn't proposing this be a default. too soon for that, in any case. i was proposing this may have merit & utility.

mircea_popescu: you can manage, can;t you ?!

mircea_popescu: Mocky why wouldn't you just act like a sane human being and tell them, "hey, i'd like to participate / work on this project."

diana_coman: asciilifeform, hm, I don't follow/think it's an apt metaphor there

mircea_popescu: have lotta "senators" who can't read, end up with a publicly funded cliffnotes agency.

asciilifeform: i guess my problem is that i can't picture any end of this road that doesn't resemble ck-kpss and 'senate intelligence committees' etc.

diana_coman: I honestly don't see why would it be a problem to share with x but not with y in l1

mircea_popescu: the sticky issue of arbitrarily excluding some people from l1 in this sense is that why didn't you a) speak up during http://trilema.com/2018/the-rivers-of-blood-article-or-the-lordship-list-fifth-year/ and b) why wasn't whatever problem you saw remedied.

mircea_popescu: if it's deeded it's deeded, you don't have to look if you don't feel like looking.

mircea_popescu: Mocky i don't imagine it's a firm "all l1 absolutely or no deal". it was just phrased exemplarily.

asciilifeform: people aren't exactly entirely not hermit crabs... outside of sea divers, orbiters, etc we generally don't carry oxygen around, but rather expect to find it in immediate surrounding like the crab expects his food.

mircea_popescu: half the aftermarket for fucking rv's ("wouldn't it be great if we regressed 10mn years ?!") is pouches of all sorts of kinds.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand they ain't ants, they are wired for 'food is to be looked for in immediate vicinity, when hungry'. think 'grasshopper', not 'ant', in aesopian terminology.

mircea_popescu: turns out that the most carrying animal is also the least carry-concerned. wouldn't you expect snail has saddle bags for the shell ?

mircea_popescu: me too, but i didn't like the sort of crowd it created. years later i read what zappa had to say about disco crowd, almost exactly the same sentiment.

asciilifeform: Mocky: i wouldn't put it past microshit to fuck up even this. but in principle yes.

asciilifeform: people like to laugh at nintendo, but that's what the actual hard-engineering solution to the problem of dynamicism looks like. e.g. FG src ~will~ run on every FG, and if in any case it is found not to, ~that unit~ is defective and to be immediately replaced. just like nintendo that wouldn't run 'mario XVIII' or whatnot.

mircea_popescu: and also, consider : eulora client is ~definitionally~ for all comers. these people won't run your toolchain anyway.

asciilifeform: try 'dynamicing' and yer bin simply won't run.

asciilifeform: the other pertinent fact is that we don't have 'eternal' bins until we have a pinned-down kernel, and the latter requires pinned-down iron.

mircea_popescu: i didn't make this world ; i'm just trying to live in it.

diana_coman: well, if he releases for windows, who the fuck see can't reproduce

mircea_popescu: diana_coman you see the code he deeded and see can't reproduce. so now you two have something to talk about

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but i ~didn't propose that~ in 2016, either, did i.

mircea_popescu: diana_coman well because say mocky does the release. ima frown if his release sucks, and he doesn't want that ; and his toolchain is to be expected better than literally rando camwhore's, "i dunno how kleopatra works". neh ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that so far, at least as visible from my tower, i've succeeded in this. whereas if i had distributed the whole kit in february of 2016, to kako et al, chances are that wouldn't.