log☇︎
108400+ entries in 4.253s
mircea_popescu: (perhaps this is obivous to me only for some god-forsaken reason, but the next step after the view on the bitcoin protocol that it permits miners to arbitrarily reject txn and the collusion of miners is - you gotta get a license to bitcoinate. why hardfork to increase their revenue, even.) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: moreover, and more importantly, if you give over to the government the franchise to interpret private agreements, you provably construct a government even more far reaching than the welfare state, sitting in ~an equivalent position of the miner cartel but for contracts, and soon to issue "licenses to contract" or somesuch insanity.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:02:38; asciilifeform: jurov: i suspect that if you were to suggest to mircea_popescu that a group of lordz could, or ought to, make a collective decision, he would break out in hives and barf
BingoBoingo: The problem to selling in a way that maximally recoups value is my chief barrier to bidding. Hard problem I have little experience or connections to do.
adlai catches up on 6mo logs, should take Two Weeks(tm)(s)(r), give or take a halving~~
assbot: Page not found on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UcrIay )
mircea_popescu: (and since we're on it, this important point seems perhaps lost and is still paramount : "It is important to remember that the score associated to a relationship does not mark the direct trust of the scorer for the scoree, but merely the scorer's confidence that the information he has about scoree is correct, accurate, relevant and complete. All four." from the ever-fascinatingly counterintuitive http://trilema.com/201
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:00:41; phf: jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on
mircea_popescu: a judge may decide what a contract means if there's dispute between the parties, which here is what the [judge] sindic aka receiver is going to do anyway. other than that - he can't order for "the world" to satisfy any party's perceived comfort, no matter how dressed up.
mircea_popescu: d if he tries, they'll disconnect your thing an hour a day. at which point what, you go to your congressman to sponsor a law making it illegal for provider to disconnect shitty users ? are we trying to rebuild the great nation of america or something ? would be cheaper to just go with the one extant.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432761 << it's entirely unclear to me what you think this'd do. let's work an example. you sign up for one of those newfangled internet thingees. provider sells you it, you meet the girl of your dreams in australia, keep in daily email touch. provider hikes the rate. you... what, go to a judge, to order the provider to charge you less ? not something the judge can do - an ☝︎
mircea_popescu: who was that guy anyway, famously told judge that "he can be born wherever he wants to!" ? painter, accused of passing off a "too shitty to be sold" painting, late us reverberation of the school wars.
solrodar: much less than the value of a going concern with a reputation
mircea_popescu: i suppose the "what's the value of code" item is a very vague thing on the internet still huh.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432755 << how did that go, "yes half hour of my time and a lifetime of learning the trade" or somesuch. ☝︎☟︎
solrodar: yes, as a package first
mircea_popescu: so you're going to try as a package first, then just the domain on a 2nd pass, and advertise this on forums - how many, which, do you have good standing accounts in any (which) or is this going to be just some drive-by spam thing ?
solrodar: for the codebase, potential buyers are likely to be fewer, so my initial thought would be to conduct the auction in #b-a with bidders solicited from forums likely to be interested
mircea_popescu: a wife but stuck with one that actually owns him. third options aren't really very easily accessible. so - no, don't make that assumption, it'll run you to ruin.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432744 << this is a complicated proposition. the traditional avenue of the dedicated tramp is to join a group, liberally fuck anyone but the alpha of that group, insist that the alpha marry her. this presses a very strict choice on the alpha that's not trivially resolved - if he kills her everyone else loses a fuckdoll ; if he marries her he's fucked, not only stuck with ☝︎☟︎
solrodar: I haven't sold anything of this nature before, but I have managed a number of domain names including one I bought at auction
mircea_popescu: a marketing plan's always a good idea.
mircea_popescu: ok, but in order for such a seal of approval to be worth something, you'd have to be known by someone neh ?
solrodar: I would also provide a third-party verification that in my judgment the codebase for sale is complete and working
mircea_popescu: well, what do you contemplate setting as a fee and what sort of time interval do you see this taking roguhly speaking ?
mircea_popescu: a ok, go on.
mircea_popescu: i don't think you take my meaning. have you for instance ever auctioned a domain name successfully ? are you well known in those circles ? anything ? ☟︎
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1phuhuR )
solrodar: essentially what you suggested at http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#comment-116766 , with a few alterations
solrodar: whatever else he's been accused of, nobody's called him a thief
solrodar: obviously I'm not well known enough to be trusted with the site funds, so I have a proposal
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432738 << this is not generally true. even if it were true - it'd also be the essence of oppression. think well about how a world would look where hunger drives coding, for instance. i dunno if you've ever experienced the classical street urchin of central asia thing, but anyway. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: which is why the only time a market in women exists is when it's maintained by significant outside force.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 20:47:25; trinque: there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432731 << this idea seems good in theory. in practice, this is exactly never happening. easier to understand why not, is to understand why there IS something categorically preventing a market in women ; like a supermarket where you go buy one. the ones that are above average have no incentive to participate - see the discussion about lemon laws and the death spiral except ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 20:39:47; phf: that was an answer to a solrodar's intentionally pointed question about costs of hosting vs. mp's "time", which was in term prompted by my attempt to understand how bitbet works
jurov: apparently you intended bitbet as a tool to establish The Order in bitcoin, while kakobrekla unawares thought it's usual business
mircea_popescu: this is the same kakobrekla, you recall, who went on a trip to check out a hungarian asicminer on a day's notice, also in these very logs. the sort of rationality of old people is not particularly relevant to the young - and same is true of bitcoin.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 20:35:40; asciilifeform: would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ?
mircea_popescu: but yes, if you're curious, the reason i might blast at you when you go into a patented jurov tailspin while i'm simply bitchslapping him into oblivion is that you WERE here then, and your spleen is actually part of that same ground. and yes these things matter, at least to me.
mircea_popescu: obody's thanking anyone for giving up his spleen to MAKE UP the ground on which he walks - it's just ground, a given, forget about it) you want to credit rather than charge, so as to give things a chance.
assbot: The positive market effects of the delivery bet. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzV3mo )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432701 << the big problem here is that in a nascent economy (and please remember that bitbet was born in 2012, not in 2015, and its primary function at the time was stuff like http://trilema.com/2013/the-positive-market-effects-of-the-delivery-bet/ ie help clear up an entirely INSANE space, which it did admirably well and which nobody credits today because hey, fuck us, n ☝︎
humanoidity: kakobrekla: didn't imply you needed them, but getting other knowledgeable folks' opinion on a particular situation doesn't strike me as unreasonable.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ? ☟︎
humanoidity: kakobrekla: what would you consider to be a fair outcome in this quagmire ?
kakobrekla: phf you cant have responsibility without liability; no skin in the game - no game. if nothing else, it creates a set of bad incentives. this is how fiat world works and we collectively despise that.
humanoidity: phf: I see. Hence the "receiver" bizness. Sounds like a marriage counselor is what is needed here :)
phf: i take it the issue is not "where" the money comes from (because there's a valid existing venue that worked in the past for this particular usecase), the issue is that of trust, i.e. kako doesn't trust mp for future bitbet operations
humanoidity: kakobrekla : have you guys explored selling more bitbet shares ? Might be another way to recover those 17BTC, diluting shareholder value a little. And then let bygone etc... and focus on making sure the payout problem can't happen again.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:20:43; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: from a newcomer's pov, you guys seem to be fairly upset with one another, which - given what you built together is imo makes this impasse a bit of a waste
humanoidity: Whereas 750BTC of outstanding bets evaporating might upset folks a lot.
humanoidity: Yeah, 750. But what I mean is that spreading that 17BTC loss over the 740BTC outstanding bets might be a way out. The only liability will be the site's rep, and the damage won't be irreparable looks like
humanoidity: I like this site a lot. Sorta sad to see it go pear-shaped for what seems like a fairly simple governance problem.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: in a way i 'skipped school', did not lose coin in any of the major catastrophes of the dark ages
kakobrekla: anyway ftr if it would be solely up to me, this mess would have been resolved in a few days tops.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: is there a path forward to unjam things for bitbet at this point ? I'm not I am fully groking this "receiver" business
asciilifeform: unless someone can actually ~prove~ google malfeasance, the bet resolves to a machine win
kakobrekla: ah, so its a loss-loss for you.
kakobrekla: asciilifeform you took a side in alphago bet, neh?
asciilifeform: 3 on a good day.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: thx for context, this explains quite a bit, and I'm starting to understand what is making this situation sticky
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:17:04; mircea_popescu: i'm a masochist like that.
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.
asciilifeform: i even have, in my collection, such a thing.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:20:43; asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.
asciilifeform: but this is not surprise, mats, a buncha 'pocket pc' items circa early 2000s ran on superH
mats: TIL msft's proprietary disasm lib incudes a superh disasm, assembler
asciilifeform: a wolf, by and large, cannot even conceptualize the ticks
BingoBoingo: I thought a mircea_popescu had gurlz to do that.
asciilifeform: in fact, does not even consider ticks as a thing, except when specially sitting down to think about it
asciilifeform: a mircea_popescu - can remove the ticks.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: most of'em squeeze out a fairly pathetic existence if you count pay PER HOUR OF ACTUAL SWEAT
asciilifeform: being a labourer sucks slightly less, or slightly more, between regions, but it sucks fundamentally for entirely fundamental reasons.
phf: at how stable bitbet is with an occasional massive positive spike), unless, it's, like, a credit to buy an office in san francisco and pitch second round, who cares?
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 22:18:12; phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?
phf: thestringpuller: there's a precedent. an mpif credit was extended june 2014 and no dividends paid until credit was payed off july and august.
thestringpuller: does company get lent credit and just book the bill as an expense? it's probably justifiable if done in a way where shareholders still get to see ~some~ profit monthly, but company doesn't go bankrupt paying of credit.
thestringpuller: phf: so zero assets is obviously an oversight << since corporation doesn't hold any cash outside of "day to day operations" and all profit is distributed, dealing with credit is tricky. what if company needs to buy a foo-machine but is too expensive to book as a one time expense?
humanoidity: jurov: I read "Nevertheless, I am floating its negative cash balance free of charge, with a view of being defrayed from future profits.". I may not be using the accurate terminology here, but it sounds like a loan.
jurov: humanoidity: where do you see a loan?
humanoidity: phf : gotcha. So there's quite a bit of cash parked in there atm, and 17btc doesn't look like at huge amount to build back. Why on earth was mp's loan offer rejected ?
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 22:22:18; phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.
phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed. ☟︎☟︎
phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace? ☟︎
jurov: why not? is $25 a bet before expenses worth it?
phf: is that a serious question?
phf: so about $25 a bet pardon my fiat, ignoring hosting
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LamWrs )
humanoidity: would anyone be kind enough to point to a summary of the concerns with bitbet.us ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432847 << you just described a cartel, davout . ☝︎
asciilifeform: but this is a future thing.
asciilifeform: and because i consider it possible for tmsr to develop into something like a planetoid economy.
assbot: Loper OS » A Review of MPEx, the Bitcoin Stock Exchange. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj4Xdf )
asciilifeform: this bothered me in 2013 ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1108 ) but does not bother me today, largely because my giving-a-shit muscle wore out.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun. ☟︎
asciilifeform: anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum. ☟︎
jurov: but that boils down exactly to it -- when the new owner goes to assing more value to reddit crowds than b-a wot
asciilifeform: it is a ludicrous very idea.