log☇︎
104000+ entries in 0.834s
asciilifeform: but i will point out, i see this entire story (the bbet meltdown) though 'shoemaker' eyes, and i never had any idea, whether jurov and kako were part of mircea_popescu's actual inner circle, i.e. folks who actually move serious coin around, privy to how mpb works, physically met his intelligence agents, etc. or not.
asciilifeform: i guess this is none of our stinking serf business eh
jurov: i managed to get some crumbs
asciilifeform: jurov: very clearly i do not know it for certain, but inferring from the bbet event.
phf: jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention. ☟︎
asciilifeform: though i have nfi, you'd have to ask him, to be sure.
asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu would rather burn it than let it go to hitler. ☟︎
asciilifeform: bbet was ~the~ bet machine, as far as i'm concerned, fwiw, and now there is none. ☟︎
asciilifeform: just like i won't fuck a hole in a rusty truck on some godforsaken junkyard lot.
asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Who knows, maybe after reciever cuts it up Betmoose would be willing to buy parts and carry it as the sort of reddit betting thing they've been somehow floating for a while. I don't know if I would bet there, but seems like possible buyer for domain/software.
jurov: i did want bbet restarted, but since today i realized the "can't be valued" part, this is not feasible
jurov: while bitbet is frozen, there's not going to be any end to the discussion, i am afraid.
phf: i'm a slow thinker, so i'm taking my time
jurov: cmon, i genuinely want to learn what are you onto
jurov: but i already did that short of negrating him, why would i need a judge?
asciilifeform: jurov: i suspect that if you were to suggest to mircea_popescu that a group of lordz could, or ought to, make a collective decision, he would break out in hives and barf ☟︎
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision
phf: jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 is what i said about the 17btc question ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: and it is not impossible to buy my time, just that it is not ~practical~ for anyone i consider worthwhile. because it is sold only in very large parcels, and is not cheap. but this is beside the point.
asciilifeform: i think mircea_popescu was the one with the +inf.
phf: there's an utter lack of compartmentalization going on here. the way bitbet is structured is explicit in the contract. only aspect of the operation that's under consideration is "recieve bets, take percentage, pay out", because that's all that shareholders are party to. everything else is between kako and mp and that aspect worked for them. at no point was this arrangement publicly ~questioned~ by any party involved. i spelled it out in
trinque: I was there for the original thread.
asciilifeform: he - correctly - said that i may as well be smoking crack
asciilifeform: jurov: do you recall that thread where i asked mircea_popescu to tally up what, e.g., 'v' was worth to him, in money ?
jurov: yes, i understand it too. i only don't understand the "can't be valued" part.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:21:42; mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.
asciilifeform: that is, as i understand, mircea_popescu's 'bbet consumed megatonnes of grade-A mptronium which i supplied at no cost, and now people expect be to also put in coin for phree?!'
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:34:02; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of
jurov: asciilifeform: i don't see anything like that in this case
asciilifeform: the bbet divorce, as i understand, stopped quite deliberately short of this
jurov: from today's log i have learned that it's important to report *all* expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin ☟︎
phf: i think it's entirely normal for tmsr operation to not have a bedrock, since we've just spent a year exploring just how rotten bedrock is. hosting, "personal affairs", linguistic and architectural choices, what have you.
phf: ftr i didn't raise that as a question, i was clarifying how things are for myself and others.
asciilifeform: now, i cannot pay what these fine massages from mircea_popescu costs. but if he were not fond of giving them for free, i would have to forgo the massages.
mircea_popescu: or in more at-home terms, what exactly am i going to put phuctor into the s.nsa books as ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of bitbet codebase ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: (and not only mircea_popescu , but i think many folks swallowed them in one pill)
asciilifeform: but i will note that the story ends up having some of the unpleasant flavour of the usg secret court trials with secret evidence, resultingly.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i believe it.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations. << the problem here is that complete transparency can not be achieved for practical reasons. if it could have been, have no doubt i would have preferred to this "under my seal" report avenue. ☟︎
asciilifeform: and yes, i fully grasp why he loathes to deal with the sort of folks who do sigint.
asciilifeform: and, like most folks direly missing a tool, come to believe that 'i don't need screwdriver, hammer's claw in expert hands is always just as good or better'
kakobrekla: PeterL re the solution i proposed shortly after the disaster, see footnote for explanation http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#footnote_3_65290
asciilifeform: certainly i lack the lsd to process the sheer number of my-intel-told-me-so-and-you-will-take-it-on-faith-because-dirigible-and-fuckyou
phf: PeterL: i think counterparty problem is asymmetrical. that's your collateral is higher then BoA's collateral when you establish partnership
PeterL: although, I gues accounting-wise you could say you were paid the day the transaction was created, rather than the day it goes into block
asciilifeform: fwiw, i actually thought that mircea_popescu & kakobrekla's original proposed solution was spiffy
PeterL: I still don't see the need for any malisciousness, just somebody holding it in some sort of "side mempool"
asciilifeform: as i understand it.
asciilifeform: i.e. that someone chose to make a particular exception from ordinary prb rules in order to ding bbet.
asciilifeform: as i understand it.
PeterL: I guess he could specifically design a transaction which is not passed by prb, and see if it gets into blocks, which I think the high-S thing was an example?
asciilifeform: perhaps this is a failure of my puny brain, but i am at a loss as to what assurance mircea_popescu could possibly have had, and from whom, that there is not a prb vermin between mpb-net and the miner.
asciilifeform: i, for instance, will not deal with han chinese unless the deal is strictly cash&carry basis and involves no ongoing trust arrangement.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is not actually my business how mircea_popescu transmits his tx, but since he chose to present the bbet matter in the tmsr public forum, rather than limiting it to folks 'whose business it is', i will say, that the mpb (client and network both) is a serious ?????? in the story. i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations.
mats: http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it, the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want to be in the position of resolving this, but i'd be happy to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i didn't think so, the qntra piece would have read "fuck vc sybils already".
asciilifeform: but if mircea_popescu signed a statement that he transmits directly to the miners, and has no doubt that this is so, because he ran the cable himself, i will believe...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can i relay directly to miners, or can't i ?
phf: PeterL: oh from ~sale~ you mean. i don't think that shareholders have any claim to sale. since it's a zero asset corporation, the only movable part is "bets come in, percentage collected, payment sent out". "assets" is the percentage that's collected at the end of month, and immediately distributed to shareholders. what is being sold is domain/codebase and a negotiation rights with mp for hosting. that was never funded by shareholders
mircea_popescu: can i (one) or can't i (one) ?
asciilifeform: at no point did i state a belief in 'imperceptible miners', just observing that the miner collusion is not a necessary hypothesis re the bbet event.
phf: PeterL: that is what i said
mircea_popescu: do they not exactly read "i, asciilifeform, hereby do declare there's no relay network other than the miner's own" ?
asciilifeform: well if mircea_popescu demonstrated the logic whereby miner collusion is a necessary hypothesis, vs sybils alone, i must have slept through it ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432524 << i STILL do not see the miners thing as a necessary hypothesis. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: if more people had at any point throughout the intervening tax seasons stopped and thought "hey, i made whatever, 100k dollars this year, of which i'm signing off 60k to usg - might as well send tmsr the 0.1% it charges in tax!" then perhaps the foundation would have enough money and i could just donate it there as an endpoint.
mircea_popescu: well, i'm not entirely sure it can charge 1% if it doesn't resolve the bets.
mats: jurov, i'm happy to do the audit but not act as receiver
mircea_popescu: so i guess... you are now cured of it ?
mircea_popescu: iirc originally a chunk was sold, then sometime early last year or perhaps late 2014 the remainder of the shares were distributed to the principals. iirc i didn't sell much, mostly now and again to try and temper overexcited price action. should be something like .5 to maybe 3mn shares outstanding depending how much kako himself sold.
mircea_popescu: but hey, if that's above what can be had, whatever, i'll build a shrine to allah / brothel / whatever out of the proceeds and that's that.
phf: i'm trying to compartmentalize where there's none, ultimately the whole thing is a counterparty problem, and only recourse is loss&negrate
mircea_popescu: it's a disease of the mind that i don't really think can be cured, just quarantined.
mircea_popescu: that was also unpredictable bla bla. and i'm sure the shareholders would very much like management to insulate them from it. if only.
phf: so a clarification to what i said above, it's kakobrekla and mircea_popescu together paying for all aspects of bitbet operation out of pocket
mircea_popescu: 50 bux or something, i don't recall exactly.
mircea_popescu: but upon consideration, i did put the amt for the server into the costs, it really being a pittance
phf: ah, i see
mircea_popescu: so he rather cavallierly offered to continue eating the server while i continue eating the admin.
mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: phf well no, kakobrekla wrote and maintained the code and for a while covered the server costs. the former part is no trivial matter, i will point out.
asciilifeform: i must agree with phf. and i think this is how nubbins` ended up killfiled by mircea_popescu, for the 'i speak for trees, for the trees have no tongues' thing. ☟︎
phf: nubbins`: that's not the meaning of the paragraph. not "what" you did, but "how" is the focus., and the sentence you're pointing at is an exposition that frames my perspective, in a form similar to "some of us here are shoemakers and we blah blah blah". whatever blah blah blah is, it's not usually about how shoemakers can not shoemake anymore, but is more like "i speak for shoemakers"
nubbins`: <+phf>nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things <<< nothing about what i did prevents this from continuing.
mircea_popescu: it's just this unpleasant "bitbet bets once resolve enact history". i dislike the notion of cementing google's transpared ploy into my blockchain. i'm sure it's all me.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but thus far i don't see how the bet is difficult to resolve. the presumption is that the game was legit, no? barring actual proof of shenanigans ?
thestringpuller: I'll try it from another location later. Guess no qntra at work.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller i see it.
mircea_popescu: going through a game of go is rare among endeavours in that i can't be doing other things.
mircea_popescu: about all i had time/patience for.
mircea_popescu: nah i looked (briefly) through the first three
mircea_popescu: he'll get enough from "the community", i'm sure.
mircea_popescu: i even promise to not pelt with invective the poor receiver whichever way he chooses to go.
mircea_popescu: ow fuck, that's ANOTHER thing i won't have to do, resolve that god damned bet, huh.
asciilifeform: i recently finished an interesting history, 'Расстрелянные герои Советского Союза' (Heroes of SU who were condemned to the firing squad)
shinohai: by the pool >>> https://i.imgur.com/JVEw9uS.jpg
mircea_popescu: and to disabuse THAT notion, i don't personally think stalin was either very apt, very smart, or any sort of example to be followed. is, indeed, a notable example for all sorts of things,
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this was an observation, rather than prescription, i am noting that you are doing a megatonne of unplesant wurk for phree.