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mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=181168.0
mircea_popescu: o hey, nice fresh drama
bgupta: Did folks see this? http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/24/paypal-president-is-fascinated-by-bitcoin-says-company-is-thinking-about-including-the-virtual-currency/
ThickAsThieves: this drama is not tasty enough
ThickAsThieves: yes
mircea_popescu: bgupta yeah.
ThickAsThieves: paypal could "brand" bitcoin as their own
ThickAsThieves: and resist cannibilizing themselves
ThickAsThieves: but i doubt it
ThickAsThieves: cannibalizing
ThickAsThieves: more likely we'd see palcoin or such
MJR_: ppcoin
MJR_: hehehe
ThickAsThieves: :)
ThickAsThieves: western union is probably in a better position
ThickAsThieves: i question whether either is agile enough to do anything at all though
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 4 @ 0.292 = 1.168 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 43 @ 0.2924 = 12.5732 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/bitcoin_central/status/327131323342942209
mircea_popescu: seems ovh owned slush AND bitcoin-central.
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.14299 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: shoulda used godaddy
ThickAsThieves: they wont let you change shit
mircea_popescu: lol
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 6 @ 0.4182 = 2.5092 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.41810001 = 1.2543 BTC [-]
mod6: that tweet just staggers the imagination
MJR_: lol
MJR_: wow
MJR_: just saw something on tv...now that AP's twitter feed was hacked maybe someone will start caring about security more...
MJR_: and i use the term "hacked" very very loosely
kakobrekla: i wouldnt expect that
iz: MJR: twitter is very serious business :v
MJR_: lol
MJR_: oh, were you guys not aware...
iz: haha
MJR_: that tweet moved the US equity market 136 billion dollars
MJR_: so...kinda serious business
iz: not really, it's just marketing for twitter
iz: flash crashes happen and are corrected
iz: it happens
MJR_: just saying...of course they do and are
mod6: o.O
asciilifeform: the paypal thing makes me wonder: what happens when someone with serious meatspace pull starts an altchain?
MJR_: asciilifeform: well...if they have serious pull, then they will have a centralized system more than likely...which probably negates bitcoins biggest advantage
MJR_: so, either they create a distributed system they don't control...which means its exactly like bitcoin but 4 years late to the party
MJR_: or they create something they control, and it completely misses the point
asciilifeform: MJR_: you can profit from an altchain without controlling it (in the sense that Warcraft gold is controlled) - simply through pre-mining.
MJR_: well...that is what ripple did
MJR_: and most people i've talked to dislike the fact that the coins were premined
MJR_: among ripples other problems
MJR_: but the fact remains, that if you don't control the system, it probably won't be very profitable for a company, and if you do control it, bitcoin will remain unique
asciilifeform: my prediction: PayPal will take 'paypalcoin' as deposits/withdrawals, and it will pre-mine the first million or so. they will say "take it or leave it," and plenty will take it.
MJR_: i think more will leave it
MJR_: what exactly would that benefit them?
asciilifeform: MJR_: free money
MJR_: you can currently fund paypal with dollars
MJR_: why would someone want to trust paypal with their money
MJR_: most people like bitcoin because they can leave paypal
MJR_: so maybe some will choose that, but i think you combine the technical difficulty of bitcoin with the centralization and control of the current system
MJR_: and if they do a blockchain like system, people will know how many coins they've premined
asciilifeform: paypal wants to live. so it will set itself up as a very odd sort of bitcoin exchange, where you have to buy into their scrip to play.
MJR_: if they don't...why trust them in the first place
ThickAsThieves: paypal won't do anything
MJR_: point is, bitcoin will remain unique
ThickAsThieves: they are too big
MJR_: ThickAsThieves: i agree...but theoretically if they wanted to, it'd be a waste of time
ThickAsThieves: there's like what, one agile big business?
ThickAsThieves: Google
asciilifeform: ebay is a de-facto monopoly, so an altcoin which one can use on ebay (via paypal) will have a serious advantage.
MJR_: how?
MJR_: i seriously don't get it
MJR_: i can use cash on ebay
MJR_: why would i change from cash to ebaycoin
MJR_: what benefit would it give me as a consumer?
asciilifeform: seems like most ebay users insist on electronic payment
jborkl: I personally use Chuck E Cheese tokens
MJR_: how would they get people to choose this product over cash?
MJR_: unless they decide to stop taking cash (srsly doubt that)
MJR_: yes...electronic cash
MJR_: which is what everyone uses for online shopping now
error4733: colored coin !
ThickAsThieves: the advantage
ThickAsThieves: would be in the fees
MJR_: so what benefit would a consumer have to say "it's the same price either way, i want to complicate the process of buying something"
MJR_: fees for the company
MJR_: so you lower fees for the consumer
ThickAsThieves: paypal could undermine the credit card industry
MJR_: yes, but why would i carfe
MJR_: care
ThickAsThieves: because you'd pay less fees
MJR_: good for them, you made more money, still don't see a value proposition
MJR_: how would i get cash INTO their coins?
ThickAsThieves: saving money is not a value?
MJR_: how does the cash get converted to their coins
MJR_: i pay the fees there
MJR_: and then get to buy something slightly cheaper, after using more time and adding complexity
ThickAsThieves: you need expand your perspective
ThickAsThieves: yknow how people are trying bitcoin credit cards?
ThickAsThieves: paypal could take that over
MJR_: i'm telling you...if you are saying that the pool of available value is the fees that ebay will not pay credit cards...then they will want a big piece of that
ThickAsThieves: they are already making inroads by releasing paypal credit cvards
jborkl: Why would you need a bitcoin credit card- just use a phone with NFC or scan to send
MJR_: but, you haven't in any way made the process better for the consumer because I will just use my credit card to buy your ebaycoins
ThickAsThieves: *We* dont need any of this
ThickAsThieves: but joe sixpack might
MJR_: ThickAsThieves: so if i can have a bitcoin credit card (which I know they are working on) then why would i choose to use ebaycoins
MJR_: point is, these "alt chains" exist and have for quite some time
Diablo-D3: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 151.19991, Best ask: 151.19992, Bid-ask spread: 0.00001, Last trade: 151.19991, 24 hour volume: 233424.28099254, 24 hour low: 140.20000, 24 hour high: 166.43438, 24 hour vwap: 151.56597
MJR_: they are called frequent flier miles
ThickAsThieves: its a branding and positioning conversation
MJR_: rewards points
ThickAsThieves: not just about value comparisons
MJR_: there is nothing they are doing that is new or useful by creating an alt chain
MJR_: oh yeah, gift cards too
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.143 BTC [+]
truff1es: we should ban altcoins
MJR_: nah
ThickAsThieves: well they dont even NEED to do it as an alt
ThickAsThieves: they could just legitimize bitcoin
MJR_: true
MJR_: but therein lies the difference
MJR_: adopting bitcoin makes sense
ThickAsThieves: not exactly
MJR_: you will save fees
MJR_: and have faster clearing
ThickAsThieves: Paypal isnt gonna trust their money with Luke-Jr
ThickAsThieves: sorry
MJR_: lol
MJR_: there is my point
mod6: who the fuck cares about paypal?
jurov: public transactioin record can be interesting.. but what about chargebacks?
MJR_: bitcoin either remains unique in its decentralization, or someone creates an identical system that doesn't add value
joecool: mod6: i don't even think paypal cares about paypal
MJR_: lol
MJR_: anyways, thats my point
MJR_: amazon already has amazoncoins
ThickAsThieves: its just a conversation
MJR_: no one cares
ThickAsThieves: it wont bite
Diablo-D3: amazoncoins arent coins
Diablo-D3: they're xbox live points
Diablo-D3: its not the same thing
MJR_: which is what i am saying
MJR_: you can create customer rewards programs all day long...that is not bitcoin
ThickAsThieves: this is why paypal would consider an altcoin
ThickAsThieves: before bitcoin
KRS1: i just started mining bytecoins!
mod6: http://youtu.be/h5tcAXMDxfY
MJR_: my point is...paypal won't say "we can create a customer rewards point system, but let's do it in the most confusing and difficult way as opposed to just creating a new table in a database"
ThickAsThieves: they make palcoins to have the features of bitcoin, without the risks of how bitcoin is run
MJR_: the biggest feature of bitcoin is that paypal doesn't control it!
ThickAsThieves: (dont forget i started my comments with, paypal won't do shit)
MJR_: good point
MJR_: the beautiful thing that makes bitcoin great is that NO ONE runs it
ThickAsThieves: thats not true at all
MJR_: the minute someone says "i run this" you just completely missed the point
ThickAsThieves: teh devs and miners run it
ThickAsThieves: and gox
MJR_: no...
ThickAsThieves: you can tell yourself that
MJR_: they adopted a protocol that they don't control
MJR_: i'm a miner, i think i should get 100 coins for this block
MJR_: i "control" this system don't I?
ThickAsThieves: lol
MJR_: exactly
ThickAsThieves: dont jump to extremes
Diablo-D3: MJR_: are you on drugs?
MJR_: no...not yet at least
Diablo-D3: or do you just like shitting out strawmans?
MJR_: hahahaha
MJR_: my point is that a decentralized system can be said to be run by everyone, or no one, same difference
MJR_: but seriuosly, if i control it, i can say "i want more than 21 million" or "you can't use it on silk road"
MJR_: etc
ThickAsThieves: bitcoin WANTS to be decentralized
ThickAsThieves: but needed to be under control to actually get off the ground
MJR_: the protocol can be implemented by anyone anywhere
MJR_: huh? it is off the ground...and it isn't under anyone's control
ThickAsThieves: cmon
ThickAsThieves: really?
MJR_: its been around for 4 years...its still small, but any company that had the run that bitcoin has would be pretty happy
ThickAsThieves: so who caused AND fixed the fork
ThickAsThieves: everyone?
MJR_: lol, they suggested that people move back and those people agreed
MJR_: they didn't have to
ThickAsThieves: devs and mining pools did it
ThickAsThieves: you had no say
ThickAsThieves: i had no say
MJR_: perhaps we need to understand what "control" means
ThickAsThieves: no
ThickAsThieves: you want it to mean total control
MJR_: if one of those people controlled it, they wouldn't have had to ask
ThickAsThieves: devs dont need to ask
MJR_: and you could have kept on mining the longer chain until it became invalid
MJR_: devs did ask
ThickAsThieves: they barely need to ask each other
MJR_: huh?
MJR_: they turned off the miners machines?
MJR_: they didn't have to ask the mining pool operators
gribble: There are currently 159761.04 bitcoins demanded at or over 50.0 USD, worth 14120174.0375 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0096 seconds
MJR_: they just turned them off themselves
ThickAsThieves: they didnt have to change the software either
MJR_: you don't have to use the software they create
gribble: There are currently 57796.802 bitcoins demanded at or over 100.0 USD, worth 7146181.94725 USD in total. | Data vintage: 16.2669 seconds
MJR_: bitcoin is a protocol
gribble: There are currently 47694.042 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 8461014.99825 USD in total. | Data vintage: 24.4125 seconds
MJR_: anyone can write their own software
gribble: There are currently 57833003 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 19845908.6143 USD in total. | Data vintage: 31.6619 seconds
ThickAsThieves: yes
gribble: There are currently 74644.128 bitcoins offered at or under 250.0 USD, worth 14832772.4797 USD in total. | Data vintage: 46.1288 seconds
MJR_: so what do the devs control? their implementation of the bitcoin protocol
MJR_: fine
ThickAsThieves: and whomever trusts their latest version
ThickAsThieves: or influence
MJR_: what do mining pool operators control? the hashes they produce...no biggie
MJR_: that is the key word
MJR_: influence
ThickAsThieves: how is it not a biggie?
ThickAsThieves: they "saved bitcoin"
MJR_: i can ask, suggest, beg, demand...but i can't FORCE
ThickAsThieves: control only requires the ability to manipulate the controls
ThickAsThieves: not break them
MJR_: and if everyone decides to go in one direction, i can mine my own forked chain and have my own little world...or i can go with the majority
ThickAsThieves: sounds like a great format for paypal to trust
MJR_: no...that is like saying that since I can vote in elections I control who is president of the US
ThickAsThieves: ...
MJR_: the point is, they had to ask at every step of the way
MJR_: next time the pool operators could say no
MJR_: that is the point
ThickAsThieves: who did the devs ask about releasing .8?
MJR_: they released THEIR software
MJR_: they are allowed to release whatever they want
ThickAsThieves: and the pools ate it up
MJR_: you can choose to download it, or not
ThickAsThieves: anyway
ThickAsThieves: if you want bitcoin to be decentralized
MJR_: last i checked they didn't come to your house and install it without your consent
ThickAsThieves: it needs to have an exchange built into it somehow
MJR_: huh?
iz: they don't? who the hell was that guy then?!?
ThickAsThieves: if people still follow software upgrades
ThickAsThieves: it is not decentralized
iz: uh..
iz: maybe there is some confusion about what decentralized means in the bitcoin context
ThickAsThieves: i see it as
ThickAsThieves: the ability for a party to manipulate it enought to affect all users
iz: are you saying bitcoin isn't decentralized, because all the clients follow the same protocol?
iz: er.. bittorrent, i mean
iz: either way
iz: same difference
iz: same point
ThickAsThieves: because there are a handful of people deciding its fate
iz: that's not what decentralized vs centralized means though
iz: just because a handful of ppl decide something's fate, doesn't mean it can't be a decentralized system
ThickAsThieves: it can be one but not act like one
ThickAsThieves: i suppose
iz: how would you define a decentralized system that acts like one in your mind then?
iz: can you give any examples of such a thing existing?
ThickAsThieves: hmm
ThickAsThieves: i can find holes in any example that comes to mindf
augustocroppo: Define "decentralized" system.
iz: yeah, exactly
augustocroppo: It is not central to what?
iz: i think your idea of a "perfect decentralized system" doesn't exist really
ThickAsThieves: not centrally controlled
iz: because it's too abstract
augustocroppo: So there is no control?
iz: and you are abstracting what "centralized" vs "decentralized" means far too much
kakobrekla: go troll -dev
ThickAsThieves: but the conversation did move to that
ThickAsThieves: mainly i was saying that devs have ability to ruin bitcoin
ThickAsThieves: and mjr disagreed
ThickAsThieves: anywho
ThickAsThieves: i'll stop
augustocroppo: So, no more debate?
ThickAsThieves: got too semantic
augustocroppo: Someone told me that IRC is where the most important subjects related to Bitcoin are discussed.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 7 @ 0.4548 = 3.1836 BTC [+]
truff1es: "most important"
ThickAsThieves: this room has been kinda dead lately
kakobrekla: too much ppl
truff1es: there arent too many people in here compared to otc
ThickAsThieves: or bitcoin-anal
truff1es: haha
ThickAsThieves: turns out the bitcoin-anal crew actually are a little anal
truff1es: they actually seem to like discussing things in there
MJR_: what is bitcoin-anal?
ThickAsThieves: its half noobs and half chart firends
truff1es: analysis
ThickAsThieves: fiends*
MJR_: sorry had to run downstairs
MJR_: anyway, my point is that a free market is the most efficient system so far
MJR_: so, bitcoin is closest to that ideal...if people don't like the devs, they will build their own software
MJR_: (this is extremely likely)
truff1es: if you build it, they will come
Scrat: please no more litecoin clones
MJR_: if people don't like the mining pools decisions, they will join a different one
mod6: think of HTTP or SMTP before modern clients, guys either used something like lynx or elm
ThickAsThieves: will take some big mistakes along the way
MJR_: Scrat: no, not an alt chain...you can build bitcoin software yourself
MJR_: mod6: exactly
MJR_: http is a protocol, i can write a browser to use that protocol
mod6: eventually they'll get us that spec and some more dev's will be off to the races on their own client
ThickAsThieves: the conversation did stem from how an entity like Paypal would never touch bitcoin because of these factors
MJR_: saying that the guys who made netscape navigator could have ruined the internet is pretty unlikely
jurov: no, ie6 almost ruined it :D
ThickAsThieves: not comparable
MJR_: jurov: LOL yeas
MJR_: it is exactly the same thing
mod6: lol or netscape6 ... eek!
MJR_: a protocol
KRS1: nutscrape sucked
truff1es: the pain and suffering "shivers"
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 6 @ 0.4548 = 2.7288 BTC [+]
augustocroppo: Free market is not a "system"...
MJR_: it is
truff1es: *shivers*
augustocroppo: From where you got that?
kakobrekla: v0.8 almost ruined it
KRS1: i just started the channel #bitcoin-anal, everyobody's welcome to come
ThickAsThieves: come in you anal?
MJR_: A free market is a market structure in which the distribution and costs of goods and services, along with the structure and hierarchy between capital and consumer goods, are coordinated by supply and demand unhindered by external regulation or control by government or monopolies
error4733: call MP
KRS1: yes it will be fun
mod6: haha
jurov: i prefer #bitcoin-circlejerk
truff1es: <KRS1> too unnatural sorry
KRS1: those are for the alt-coins
kakobrekla: ;;ud circlejerk
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=circlejerk | To kneel in a circle with others and pleasure oneself. Also refers to a pompous, self-congratulatory discussion where little to no progress is made.
MJR_: that is basically describing a system
KRS1: ;;ud paleface
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=paleface | A common term used by native Americans to classify white people.
augustocroppo: Right, and what exactly the "free" means in all that structure?
MJR_: it means that there is no external regulation
truff1es: free...
truff1es: that word should be banned
MJR_: within this system, everyone is able to impact it as much as they can
ThickAsThieves: guys, getting semantic about everything is worse than a circlejerk
MJR_: your ability to impact it is only limited by YOUR ability to impact it
MJR_: i'm not trying to get semantic
MJR_: but i agree totally
truff1es: i am
augustocroppo: Free of external regulation? But what boundaries define what is out and what is in?
jurov: /o\
MJR_: lol
ThickAsThieves: what is a system? what is free? what is is?
MJR_: hahaha
MJR_: good point
MJR_: point is, competition...
KRS1: the answer lies in...#bitcoin-anal
KRS1: Everyone gets it in the end
ThickAsThieves: i dont do anal
MJR_: hehehe
augustocroppo: I think this concept of "free" market is just a fictional idea...
jurov: and it isn't always most effective anyway.
mod6: does -anal come with fees?
KRS1: in one way or another, jack
mod6: ;D
KRS1: lol
MJR_: well...since i said it is a system, which is what you disagreed with, systems are abstract concepts...the current implementation of our economy has some features that are based on a free market economy
truff1es: <augustocroppo> join #bitcoin-analysis more discussions that you desire imo
MJR_: anyway, since anyone can create software to use the bitcoin protocol, people will create the best one, as long as its worthwhile for them
ThickAsThieves: careful, if you arent predicting where the price is going, btc-anal crew gets antsy
MJR_: since anyone can start a mining pool, the best mining pool will win
MJR_: etc
augustocroppo: Thank you by the tip, I am lost in the Freenode server...
MJR_: everyone is free to compete with everyone
jurov: nope.easiest one will win
truff1es: yea there are many channels for bitcoin
ThickAsThieves: ^
MJR_: lol, bitcoin is slowly taking over freenode
ThickAsThieves: or the most promoted pool, or the 'coolest' pool
jurov: yea. "don't call me skynet. i'm gribble."
jurov: ;;gribble
gribble: yes I am gribble. why do you keep bothering me?
MJR_: if your promotion or your marketing cause you to get the most people to join, its the best
truff1es: im not sure what the discussion was about, free market rules in bitcoin?
ThickAsThieves: its about nothing at this point
jurov: about cats
MJR_: basically...decentralized vs centralized (why a coin controlled by paypal is pointless, and if they don't control it, they are not adding any value)
ThickAsThieves: started with whether paypal would use bitcoin somehow, or make their own coin
ThickAsThieves: and whether or why
truff1es: hmmm
truff1es: why does bitcoin ned to be controlled...
truff1es: need
MJR_: it doesn't
ThickAsThieves: it doesnt
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-GOLD] 1 @ 0.0099 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-GOLD] 1 @ 0.008 BTC [-]
MJR_: that is the best feature of it in my opinion, that it isn't controlled
ThickAsThieves: except that it sorta is
ThickAsThieves: :P
MJR_: again...?
kakobrekla: aw shutup
truff1es: i like paypal, its very user friendly
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4548 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 6 @ 0.4548 = 2.7288 BTC [+]
MJR_: i think we just disagree on what control is
ThickAsThieves: paypal could make bitcoin "user friendly"
truff1es: how
MJR_: since i don't have to use bitcoin-qt, they don't control me
MJR_: and i agree that paypal accepting bitcoin could be a good thing
ThickAsThieves: by integrating it with their own system
MJR_: ^^agree
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4548 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: you dont need a wallet or to understand anything about bitcoin
ThickAsThieves: if paypal just adds it to your account
MJR_: point is, if i don't like paypal's policies i don't have to use them either
MJR_: if i want to send money to silk road, and paypal says no, i can still just do it myself
MJR_: if i don't like that paypal reverses transactions, i simply don't use them
MJR_: they could reverse bitcoin transactions if they hold the account
MJR_: some people would appreciate that
ThickAsThieves: good point
truff1es: paypal would make bitcoin more popular other than that..
MJR_: it would
MJR_: i think it may even eventually be necessary for paypal to integrate with bitcoin
MJR_: but the point is that they are just as free as anyone else to adopt the protocol
KRS1: how could the network keep pace with all the transactions..as it is, it takes my btc 30 mins minimum
ThickAsThieves: paypal introcuding reversable transactions to "verfied" Xcoin accounts would be seen as a great feature to some
ThickAsThieves: paypal could mitigate that as well
MJR_: you could do that with bitcoins
MJR_: or any bank really
KRS1: visa transactions for instance get recorded at mind boggling speeds and numbers
MJR_: i just take it out of your account
KRS1: they can barely make computers/networks to keep up with them all
MJR_: you could also use bitcoins for fractional reserve banking
KRS1: i couldnt see bitcoin doing that
MJR_: bitcoin doesn't do anything
MJR_: it just exists
KRS1: dont the transactions go through the network
MJR_: everyone is free to do what they want with it
KRS1: or blockchain
ThickAsThieves: they dont have to if the coins are within a service
MJR_: yes, they do...and the network doesn't care what transactions you do...the point of anyone like paypal creating reversible transactions is that they hold your account...they don't need to put that on the blockchain
MJR_: like mt. gox currently does
ThickAsThieves: like every exchange does i think
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 19 @ 0.4548 = 8.6412 BTC [+]
MJR_: in fact, eventually a small portion of all transactions will go to the blockchain
ThickAsThieves: inluding BTCT, etc
MJR_: most will simply be accounting entries in businesses, the same way the current economy works
ThickAsThieves: everyone except satoshidice
ThickAsThieves: hehe
MJR_: for now...
MJR_: ;)
ThickAsThieves: indeed
truff1es: <MJR_> in fact, eventually a small portion of all transactions will go to the blockchain>> please elaborate
MJR_: so, if i can attract people to my bank, where i won't keep a bitcoin to back every bitcoin credit you have in your account...i can do that
KRS1: all im sayin is it takes a bunch of time for a bitcoin transaction to go through..credit card transactions are as fast as lightning
MJR_: mt gox transfers are fast as lightning
ThickAsThieves: ;;goxlag
gribble: MtGox lag is 0 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.0 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin ... nowhere, really (0 AU).
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.41750001 = 1.2525 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.4175 = 0.835 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.40001001 = 0.8 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 8 @ 0.40001 = 3.2001 BTC [-]
MJR_: for truff1es and KRS1: even though the transaction seems fast on your side, visa doesn't actually move the money when you swipe the card...that process usually takes place when the business gets the deposit from the bank that used visa or mastercard
KRS1: ic
KRS1: thats true
MJR_: that process can take a lot longer than a day
MJR_: not to put too fine a point on it, but visa and mastercard don't actually deal with money at all
KRS1: so its customer -> your service/network -> bitcoin for the end transaction -> bitcoin
MJR_: they are transaction networks
KRS1: right
ThickAsThieves: basically its only bitcoin when you move the money out of their system
MJR_: a "visa card" is not issued by visa...a bank issues it
MJR_: yes
error4733: a new toy ! http://www.btcoracle.com/
MJR_: in the same way that if i deposit money in my bank account, they don't store that cash in a box with my name on it
MJR_: that is basically how fractional reserve banking started...
MJR_: and you can do that with bitcoin, if you can convince people to deposit their money into your care
truff1es: complicated stuff itc
truff1es: <ThickAsThieves> basically its only bitcoin when you move the money out of their system>> whose system?
Diablo-D3: your mother.
MJR_: mt gox for example
MJR_: the coins you have on mt. gox are technically more like coin certificates...
truff1es: no idea how it works there so im just going with what is said itc
MJR_: yes, i agree
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 5 @ 0.44999979 = 2.25 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 5 @ 0.4499998 = 2.25 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 31 @ 0.455 = 14.105 BTC [+]
MJR_: just saying, the fact you don't know the private key to the address you send to (correct me if that is not the case) means that you have given up control over your coins and are trusting them to send them where you want, when you want
truff1es: so it acts like an intermediary
MJR_: yes
truff1es: for trading purposes right
MJR_: simple rule of thumb, if you konw the private key, they are yours, if you don't you are trusting someone to do as you wish in the future
ThickAsThieves: blockchain.info is in between
MJR_: truff1es: yes, intermediary
ThickAsThieves: they *share* the private key with you
MJR_: and yes, blockchain.info's mywallet's CLAIM (and no reason to doubt this so far) that they do not know your private key
truff1es: private key of other end user?
MJR_: no private key to the address you have with them
MJR_: they encrypt in your browser, not on their server
kakobrekla: you can check js sauce?
MJR_: not sure...haven't checked
ThickAsThieves: they must store in a server somewhere
ThickAsThieves: i can sign into blockchain from anywhere
MJR_: they can store the wallet.dat encrypted
error4733: they send backup by mail
MJR_: and they have no access to it
truff1es: im not getting it, why do that when everyone has wallet.dat's?
MJR_: huh? your wallet.dat file is stored on their server so you can access it from anywhere using a browser
truff1es: ok
MJR_: it is encrypted using a passphrase that only you know
truff1es: so for protection?
MJR_: so, if their system is honest and does what they say it does, they have no ability to send your coins
MJR_: in effect, they are providing the service of access to your wallet.dat file from anywhere, as well as a client software that can craft transactions for you, but they do not have the ability to spend your coins
ThickAsThieves: how do they accomplish their mixing service?
MJR_: for a similar system (there are many) look at kim dotcom's MEGA
truff1es: okay thanks for the explainations
MJR_: i think you have to specifically mix the coins, and in that case you are trusting them to send coins where you asked them to be sent
MJR_: they charge a fee for that
MJR_: the mixing service is not the same as their mywallet product
ThickAsThieves: isnt the mixing service in their wallets too?
ThickAsThieves: i think it's called Shared Send or sumth
MJR_: ...no, i don't think it could be
MJR_: the wallet is not a transaction
MJR_: if you choose to send the coins, you are crafting a transaction
MJR_: the transaction is where you are specifying that you will send THEM the coins, and trust them to forward them where you want them to go
truff1es: uncool
MJR_: well, it has its uses
truff1es: talking about joecool
MJR_: if you need a higher level of guaranteed anonymity, it is a great idea
MJR_: lol
MJR_: but of course you should probably use a nice big round number, or a bunch of 1btc transactions
MJR_: or else it would be simple to see where the coins end up
joecool: truff1es: oh i was trying to scam on neofutur's nick
joecool: backquotes are all the rage for scamming atm
truff1es: ok gl
MJR_: i think eventually, there will be the equivalent of "lawyers" for crafting really complicated transactions
MJR_: multisig etc
truff1es: so what i learned today, mt gox is good for easy access to wallets
MJR_: yeah
MJR_: it usually comes down to convenience vs security
MJR_: it is very convenient to use a wallet you dn't control...but if they are hacked your coins are gone
MJR_: but it is really inconvenient to go to a safe deposit box to get a paper wallet you left there, but you will almost certainly not be hacked
truff1es: they being mt gox?
MJR_: whoever you trust
truff1es: id be nervous if i had a lot of digital money these days
truff1es: lots of hacking afoot
MJR_: so that is the tradeoff...how much convenience or security do you need, the best way is to keep large portions in a paper wallet. a little bit on your home computer encrypted, and spending money in an online wallet
joecool: you do know you could just encrypt your wallet.dat and store offline or online in multiple spots easily
MJR_: joecool: yes
MJR_: but every copy means one more copy that COULD be compromised
joecool: i guess
MJR_: joecool: i don't have a paper wallet
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 8 @ 0.003333 = 0.0267 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 5 @ 0.01629 = 0.0815 BTC [-]
error4733: u gonna have a baaaad time
MJR_: i am just saying, if i had 11,000 bitcoins...10,500 would be only accessible with a multisig transaction with the horcruxes split up into 7 locations lol
joecool: seems like a solid thing to do
MJR_: error4733: i don't hold a lot of bitcoins...i have bitcoin denominated assets
joecool: the biggest loss i had was in that whole bitcoinica debacle
MJR_: check out the winklevii security system
joecool: pretty much don't put your coin in anything you don't manage if you can't stand to lose it
mod6: joecool: you got zhou tong'd!?
joecool: p.much
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8650 @ 0.00071 = 6.1415 BTC [+]
mod6: dang
MJR_: he's back by the way
jurov: mjr_ these? http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/blog/the-winklevii-strike-again-to-corner-the-bitcoin-market
MJR_: just saw him on bitcointalk
joecool: MJR_: i thought he was in hiding
joecool: i would be if i were him
mod6: he's a scammer, and should be labeled as such
joecool: someone's probably gonna kill him if he shows his face in public
joecool: sure someone didn't just jack his account?
mod6: ;;tslb
MJR_: saved them on small flash drives, putting the drives, in turn, in safe deposit boxes at banks in three different cities.
gribble: Time since last block: 5 minutes and 19 seconds
MJR_: thats what they did with their 11,000 coins
joecool: ;;goxlag
MJR_: it didn't specify if it was a n of m scheme, but i thought i read that somewhere
gribble: MtGox lag is 1.059392 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.00212300970646 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin across the outer diameter of Saturn's rings (0.0024 AU).
Scrat: MJR_: no encryption?
MJR_: Scrat: didn't specify in this article, but almost guaranteed to be encrypted
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 18 @ 0.01629 = 0.2932 BTC [-]
MJR_: anyways, i heard from credible sources that zuckerberg already matched them
Scrat: n of m (ssss) with encryption for the ultimate paranoia
MJR_: Scrat: yep
MJR_: it also makes it seem cool, since they are like horcruxes
MJR_: assuming of course that you think harry potter is cool lol
Scrat: imagine what will happen if facebook adds person to person bitcoin payments
Scrat: (which technically noone will give a shit about)
Scrat: but imagine the hype
Scrat: and lol at "credible sources"
Scrat: hello tiberiusiv
Scrat: i ate beans today
Scrat: I've been farting all day
MJR_: well, rumor, but i believe it
Namworld: The market cap is huge... people keep buying
MJR_: the money it would take to buy 11,000 is trivial to zuckerberg...and i'm sure he wouldn't want to be beaten to some new tech thing by them
pizzaman1337: ;;market buy 11000
gribble: A market order to buy 11000 bitcoins right now would take 1770138.2261 USD and would take the last price up to 166.0000 USD, resulting in an average price of 160.9217 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0013 seconds
Scrat: ;;ticker --last
gribble: 154.80000
mircea_popescu: one thing to keep in mind is the dynamics of it
Namworld: I don't see what we'd do with so much market cap. Not enough transactions backing it. Mostly speculative "storing of value"
mircea_popescu: market buy only tells you the state of the book.
mircea_popescu: Namworld store of value and speculation are strictly distinct.
MJR_: ^^this
jurov: $avg
mpexbot: jurov: 150.44
Namworld: Considering how well BTC seems to be a good store of value, I think anyone doing a store of value is speculating.
Namworld: They're putting it aside, thinking it will probably keep increasing in value over time due to limited supply.
mircea_popescu: in a very simple sense, the speculator takes a position in the expectation that with the passage of time the price of bitcoin will vary
mircea_popescu: the store of value user takes a position with the expectation that with the passage of time the price of bitcoin will not vary.
mircea_popescu: they are literally antithetical.
Namworld: Yeah, but people seem to be doing both
Namworld: I'm not saying I'm agreeing with what's occuring
error4733: diamond ?
error4733: fact is we can conceptualise a money now, not 200 years ago
pizzaman1337: well, it stores value, maybe it doesn't retain it
error4733: yes, but many asset value change every second
error4733: coffee, cigarete ? you need something ?
error4733: + a limited supply
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 154.89999, Best ask: 154.99000, Bid-ask spread: 0.09001, Last trade: 154.89999, 24 hour volume: 225856.02255002, 24 hour low: 140.96635, 24 hour high: 166.43438, 24 hour vwap: 152.06850
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 1.8439 BTC [+]
truff1es: opinion isnt too subjective either
truff1es: its not possible to create another one just because people want to?
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.1749 BTC [+]
truff1es: what if i had an electric car but i like using the other sometimes couldnt be bothered if it ran or not
error4733: ;;eightball tiberiusiv sold all his coin at 55$ two weeks ago ?
gribble: One would be wise to think so.
truff1es: heh
thestringpuller: tiberiusiv is wrong
thestringpuller: and what did we say tiberiusiv
thestringpuller: you have no skin in the game so you can't talk
truff1es: the points make sense but i wouldnt call it fact
thestringpuller: WHY ARE YOU TALKING?
thestringpuller: You are the broke person.
truff1es: prove it
error4733: gold is a store of value ?
thestringpuller: tiberiusiv: if your mom was a store of value there would be a huge market.
truff1es: conclusion doesnt follow
thestringpuller: gold is a store of value!
error4733: ok give me for you a good exemple for a store value ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.46 = 0.92 BTC [+]
orkaa: everything is a store of value, it's just that the clock is ticking
kakobrekla: and orkaa is getting older
error4733: ok, have fun in your parallel universe
mircea_popescu: so a coupla weeks ago i followed a dozen or so domme bitchez on twitter
mircea_popescu: finally gave up and unfollowed them. man they're boring.
orkaa: domme bitchez?
mod6: mircea_popescu: haha
mircea_popescu: orkaa ya
orkaa: what's domme?
orkaa: ah, dominatrix stuff
thestringpuller: dumb
thestringpuller: lol
thestringpuller: jkjk
mircea_popescu: it's like... one of the many services women provide. like making sandwiches or dressing up as french maids.
orkaa: i kinda hate domme scene
mircea_popescu: why ?
orkaa: every video gets better and better and better
orkaa: and then it ends
orkaa: they don't ever fuck, fuck
mircea_popescu: well afaik it's mostly for people who don't fuck so well.
orkaa: haha
orkaa: my argument also stands for latex porn
orkaa: they don't fuck
orkaa: or if they do, it's the guy that's getting it
kakobrekla: reminds me of decafinated coffee
kakobrekla: why arent you in #bitcoin-troll
mircea_popescu: i've fucked girls in latex
mircea_popescu: most suits have this detachable bottom bit, sorta like kid spielhosen
orkaa: i know, that's why i'm so surprised the hole isn't used so often
thestringpuller: PayPal President 'Thinking About' Including Bitcoin.
thestringpuller: lol
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 2 @ 0.1981 = 0.3962 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: only problem with latex is it kinda gets the girl sweating
ThickAsThieves: smells good?
orkaa: ThickAsThieves, it wouldn't be a problem then
mircea_popescu: sweat only smells bad after a while
mircea_popescu: much like piss
ThickAsThieves: but when she unleashes her spielhosen
orkaa: mircea_popescu, piss pretty much smells bad right away
thestringpuller: ewww
ThickAsThieves: well if you eat aparagus
thestringpuller: this is where I go play video games
thestringpuller: Metro 2033
thestringpuller: In russia apocalypse find you
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 5 @ 1.16 = 5.8 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9752 @ 0.00070367 = 6.8622 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9350 @ 0.00071 = 6.6385 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: lmao so apparently there's a huge hole in wp super cache,
mircea_popescu: <!–mfunc echo PHP_VERSION; –><!–/mfunc–> as a comment allows rce
ThickAsThieves: just what wp needs, more holes
mircea_popescu: schwpeitzer!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3698 @ 0.00071384 = 2.6398 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 10 @ 1.33597 = 13.3597 BTC [+]
sharktopuz: anyone want a chance to win a free Bitcoin ?
sharktopuz: join http://glados.cc/coinchat/r:loldong
KRS1: i'm good
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 1.839 BTC [-]
sharktopuz: nope
sharktopuz: not daniel daniel
sharktopuz: but hi tradefortress
sharktopuz: i just posted a link to the chat here
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 157.79760, Best ask: 158.48999, Bid-ask spread: 0.69239, Last trade: 158.48999, 24 hour volume: 193543.48962967, 24 hour low: 140.96635, 24 hour high: 166.43438, 24 hour vwap: 154.54250
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00067919 = 6.6561 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2550 @ 0.000678 = 1.7289 BTC [-]
gribble: There are currently 0 bitcoins offered at or under 0.0 USD, worth 0.0 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0043 seconds
gribble: There are currently 48565537 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 20073000.7143 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0362 seconds
gribble: There are currently 44143.255 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 7922764.29638 USD in total. | Data vintage: 14.9885 seconds
gribble: There are currently 98491.619 bitcoins offered at or under 500.0 USD, worth 22841799.0416 USD in total. | Data vintage: 21.2126 seconds
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3256 @ 0.000678 = 2.2076 BTC [-]
MJR_: whats new everyone?
gribble: There are currently 61938.58 bitcoins demanded at or over 100.0 USD, worth 7823432.35362 USD in total. | Data vintage: 96.2734 seconds
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.2989 BTC [-]
jurov: hi mjr_ , just spotted: http://www.igmarkets.co.uk/cfd/bitcoin-binary-options.html
jurov: anyone registered on ig?
MJR_: thats pretty cool
mircea_popescu: been there for a while, nobody yet reported using it.
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.41 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 9 @ 0.40001 = 3.6001 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.299 BTC [+]
gribble: There are currently 161046.23 bitcoins demanded at or over 50.0 USD, worth 14647076.0603 USD in total. | Data vintage: 76.5995 seconds
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.309 BTC [+]
gribble: There are currently 376782.68 bitcoins demanded at or over 10.0 USD, worth 19376072.7346 USD in total. | Data vintage: 55.6013 seconds
gribble: There are currently 186963.15 bitcoins demanded at or over 40.0 USD, worth 15776400.1157 USD in total. | Data vintage: 65.5900 seconds
gribble: There are currently 219352.05 bitcoins demanded at or over 30.0 USD, worth 16876229.4503 USD in total. | Data vintage: 72.9214 seconds
gribble: There are currently 430997.15 bitcoins demanded at or over 5.0 USD, worth 19735047.4708 USD in total. | Data vintage: 77.4950 seconds
MJR_: ;;bids 0
gribble: There are currently 48566824 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 20170679.2697 USD in total. | Data vintage: 106.8246 seconds
MJR_: mircea_popescu: hey! didn't know you were on, how's it going?
KRS1: theres usually an early morning gathering of 1-n coiners
KRS1: U.S. folk
Scrat: murcans
MJR_: lol cool
MJR_: i got my best bid/ask ticker up and running
MJR_: not sure whether to think this is an ugly hack or an elegant solution (sometimes they can be the same thing?)
KRS1: neat..web?
MJR_: not really
MJR_: i'm using node.js to run a console app
KRS1: i think node.js is the best thing since peanut butter and jelly
MJR_: which i will then spit into my order book, i'm going to basically place an order on the internal book for every order i get from gox
MJR_: just to test the engine etc
MJR_: and get some market data going
Scrat: MJR_: i hope you;ve converted it to a socket pool
Scrat: on a second glance the code i gave you sucks ass :p
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.28000003 BTC [-]
KRS1: I got a fish on the line
KRS1: * deego (deego@unaffiliated/deego) has joined #bitcoin-anal
KRS1: <deego> KRS1: heh, wth is this channel? :))
KRS1: Finally, someone to idle in my new chan
MJR_: it is really really basic right now
MJR_: Scrat: the code you gave me was super awesome and got me on the right track
MJR_: KRS1: can you explain the purpose of bitcoin-anal?
KRS1: Yes, in a matter of words, I suppose. Maybe if I explain it to Mircea Popescu he can come up with a more simple way.
MJR_: is it for obsessive compulsive people? fans of bitcoins and anal sex?
MJR_: people who want to pay for anal sex using bitcoins?
MJR_: you should put some header on the site to kinda specify, and maybe throw up a webpage for that chan
Scrat: prepare thy anii
KRS1: ;;eightball what is bitcoin anal for
gribble: It shall be.
KRS1: ;;eightball what is bitcoin anal for
gribble: Yes!
KRS1: see :/
jurov: KRH1: let's make a bot that will autopost new /dntg stuff to #bitcoin-anal
MJR_: what is dntg?
jurov: thus giving it a purpose
KRS1: I guess the first rule of #bitcoin-anal is that we don't talk about #bitcoin-anal
MJR_: have i fallen far behind in IRC?
MJR_: i've been pretty busy lately lol
jurov: http://polimedia.us/dtng/ (nsfw)
Scrat: doh
KRS1: jurov: that might be just what #bitcoin-anal needs
Scrat: romanian /soc/ ?
MJR_: what does dtng stand for? oh...i feel dumb now
MJR_: dating
MJR_: whats new jurov?
MJR_: KRS1: so...using nodejs have you been able to clear the console?
MJR_: i am finding it kinda fun to see how javascripts origins shape nodejs
jurov: not there yet. it's at hello world etm.
jurov: *atm
MJR_: i really want to get around to building a site in angularjs. with node.js on the server
jurov: mjr_ so what new... user asked me to escalate a problem to mpex... that will be inevitably axed :/
jurov: a joy, indeed
MJR_: jurov: what problem?
jurov: i'll maybe publish it after i put everything together
Scrat: MJR_: build something for the sake of building it with angular?
Scrat: i still think it's a hassle unless you're dealing with tons of forms and dynamic data
KRS1: hai!
mircea_popescu: MJR_ http://trilema.com/2013/fire-in-alabama-lets-make-the-most-of-it/
mircea_popescu: that.
KRS1: MJR: I don't have functional knowledge of node.js..what i have seen of it is very kick ass though.
KRS1: This video is wrong on so many levels, including the random little black girl dancing https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JWKmEqKaX0w
deadweasel: mulatto-in-chief, that's awesome.
mircea_popescu: lol. what's the big deal.
gribble: There are currently 160463.16 bitcoins demanded at or over 50.0 USD, worth 14545877.0448 USD in total. | Data vintage: 114.7310 seconds
gribble: There are currently 44710.655 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 8024939.68883 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0034 seconds
KRS1: heh yea they're actually pretty good- south african group
mircea_popescu: KRS1 lol the two girls on the bed...
mircea_popescu: it's their first tiem.
KRS1: i had to watch that video at least 5 times til i caught everything..like when they're sitting down to eat..did you notice the pictures on the wall..
mircea_popescu: :p
MJR_: nice article
pizzaman1337: another bitcoin-central problem? I missed that
MJR_: besides the hack pizzaman1337?
pizzaman1337: https://bitcoin-central.net/
pizzaman1337: "We have been compromised, please do not send any funds to your wallet."
mircea_popescu: ovh took out slush and the frenchies.
pizzaman1337: submitted to reddit 15 hours ago
pizzaman1337: ah that still
mircea_popescu: this is your friendly warning, if you're using them move
pizzaman1337: ok
MJR_: yeah...i think OVH should be responsible
MJR_: can they sue?
pgp2: entertaining video
pizzaman1337: how do you handle servers mircea_popescu? do you have your own physical box somewhere?
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: a number of.
pizzaman1337: various locations? any kind of physical security?
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: physical security is not such a big deal, as i was saying yest
mircea_popescu: pretty much any dc offers lockable cages
MJR_: did you see roger ver's received extortion threat?
mircea_popescu: i've not read summaries today yet
mircea_popescu: tbh i'm kinda surprised nobody has taken me on that bet.
MJR_: hmmm
MJR_: check this out
MJR_: http://nashx.com/About
MJR_: interesting idea...
MJR_: but i think you still have to trust the guy running the exchange
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186945.0
mircea_popescu: so, betsofcoin w/e scamming, blockbet scamming, i guess bitbet marks a new record of market dominance
mircea_popescu: 99% or some shit by now
mircea_popescu: MJR_ seems it could be usable to troll people neh ?
MJR_: yes
MJR_: i agree
MJR_: and bitbet is the best so far
MJR_: i suppose if someone has money and feels like fucking over other people then it is fine
MJR_: but people with a ton of money will always have an advantage over people without
mircea_popescu: i shot the guy a tweet inviting him here
mircea_popescu: maybe he shows up, kinda curious.
MJR_: yeah, i appreciate it from a theoretical perspective
MJR_: you are changing incentives
MJR_: which i am all for...but i think i figured out the problem
MJR_: you don't account for all the incentives on both sides of the equation...hence trolling
mircea_popescu: indeed.
MJR_: trolling is a perfect example of not having a broad enough scope for defining "value"
MJR_: relates to my favorite economic thought experiment
mircea_popescu: but it should be he explaining his project rather than me possibly arguing with a strawman
MJR_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game
MJR_: hehehe
mircea_popescu: MJR_ reciprocation is the problem with that.
MJR_: yes
MJR_: they talk about that later on
MJR_: that specific experiment is limited to one round
MJR_: but they have others that ask about multi-rounds
MJR_: and they have done empirical studies to test what this means
MJR_: basically, the offerer can view part of his offer as accrued honor or fairness...which is worth something, the decider can view his role as a fighter of injustice as a value, and it is rare to find a society where an 80/20 split is accepted
MJR_: i find it mind boggling that people view this as "irrational behavior" it is perfectly rational...if you broaden the definition of "value"
mircea_popescu: well that's always the case
mircea_popescu: child rape is probably perfectly rational from the rapist's perspective.
MJR_: for example...almost any woman could prostitute...why don't they all do it (and not just in a metaphorical sense)?
mircea_popescu: because they perceive they can't.
mircea_popescu: those who have that perception corrected for them always do.
MJR_: it should be free money in their eyes...except it isn't...social stigma, laws, etc all change the value proposition
MJR_: meaning it isn't worth it at the prices they assume they would get
MJR_: no such thing as a free lunch...and morals have a dollar value
MJR_: just like anything else
mircea_popescu: how many prostitutes do you know ?
MJR_: personally...i never get their names
MJR_: so we aren't familiar socially
MJR_: truffles: point is just incentives can be used to create fair systems if you account for what variables people are weighing
mircea_popescu: it's quite well established that people don't do math.
mircea_popescu: this coming from the other end, ie, the deterrence effect of criminal punishment.
MJR_: i think the opposite may be true...we all do math subconsciously
mircea_popescu: people don't care WHAT the punishment is. the only thing that makes any difference is that there's SOME punishment.
MJR_: truffles: that misses the point, there is no bad and good, there is only perceived value
MJR_: in that specific example (screwing guy who tries to offer unfair deal)>(sum of money gained from unfair deal)
MJR_: it is a simple equation...you are deciding between two choices, whichever choice is more valuable is the choice you will make
MJR_: in this case, short sighted economists view it as a choice between $0 and $10, but that is not the whole picture
MJR_: it is actually ($0+punishing that guy) vs ($10+feeling cheated)
mircea_popescu: "I can assure you btcrow.com is not into defrauding anyone. We've processed transactions over 500 BTC at a time."
mircea_popescu: this is cute.
mircea_popescu: MJR_> it is actually ($0+punishing that guy) vs ($10+feeling cheated) << good point that.
MJR_: why thank you
mircea_popescu: however, it's hard to quantify. some men pay women to abuse them for instance.
mircea_popescu: a masochist could value the cheating.
mircea_popescu: most people in shitty countries (like the us) are taught not to punish
mircea_popescu: that's also a factor.
MJR_: but truffles also brought up an interesting question...what if it all seems to me to be roughly equal in value? that is where randomness and chance play a role, a role that we have tried to minimize (though people still flip coins from time to time when they can't decide)
MJR_: if i make an offer to you, you can ignore/reject or you can accept
MJR_: you will accept if it seems valuable based on whatever metrics you choose to use, the point is that if you accept, its the rational choice based on your perceived utility/benefit
MJR_: to some people, posting pictures of themselves online with sharpies stuck up their asses was the RATIONAL choice
MJR_: truffles: perhaps
MJR_: point was, if you don't account for "lulz" you will never understand trolling
MJR_: it should not exist...but it does...so wasting your time online making arguments you know to be false is worth your time
MJR_: why would it be worth someones time? they do it for the "lulz"
MJR_: so now that you have a more accurate picture of the value proposition, you can change the incentives to stop trolls
MJR_: i agree
MJR_: just saying without understanding the incentives in a situation, you can't change that situation in a controlled manner
mircea_popescu: except the main property of trolling is that it's immune to attempts at changing the value proposition./
mircea_popescu: this is in fact the best definituion of trolling, and it's ultimate reservoir : people's indomitable will to dominate their environment
MJR_: mircea_popescu: i've found "ignore" does wonders
MJR_: how much value does someone get in a chan where no one can hear them?
MJR_: exactly 0
MJR_: the funny thing is that most people do the opposite, they engage the troll
mircea_popescu: not exactly zero. for instance truffles is on my ignore, you keep talking to them, i'm like mmmmkay.
MJR_: mircea_popescu: good point
MJR_: although i did say if everyone ignored them
MJR_: truffles usually trolls mildly enough that i haven't ignored, but for example eskimobob or tiberiusiv
MJR_: they are not around very often...specifically eskimobob
MJR_: because no one will give them what they want, attention
mircea_popescu: hey, anyone want to make a birthday cake ?
MJR_: whose birthday?
MJR_: also, i liked those meme pics
mircea_popescu: we could have it as the community cake so 1 year old services can put it on their site
mircea_popescu: i dunno, maybe it's a dumb idea
mircea_popescu: impossible to make something that'd work in all designs
MJR_: actually kind of cool
MJR_: a 3rd award?
kakobrekla: zomg
kakobrekla: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186998.0
MJR_: lol...
pizzaman1337: looks like they still want to do LTC
kakobrekla: price is going up
kakobrekla: ltc
kakobrekla: since teh news
MJR_: for you to say that they are "unworthy of my attention" is kinda silly since i have been nothing but actively talking to you
MJR_: the fact i haven't ignored you, and i don't really plan to, says that i listen to your questions
MJR_: and typically respond
MJR_: point is there is disagreeing, where their motive is to discuss, and there is trolling where their motive is to get an emotional reaction...
MJR_: fair enough
MJR_: in what sense?
MJR_: true
MJR_: and if i think they are it isn't worth my time...tiberius is a perfect example, he will recycle arguments, switch to ad hominem, it is very easy to spot
MJR_: you can judge people's motives based on what the probable outcome is...that is how we do it now
MJR_: he pointed the gun at me, then fired...i assume his motive is to do me harm
MJR_: but no, you are right, i couldn't read his mind
MJR_: anyway, the main rule for "valuation" is something is worth whatever i can sell it for
MJR_: that is its price...whatever someone is willing to pay
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186041.0
mircea_popescu: omfg all the fun!
mircea_popescu: and nobody here said anything!
mircea_popescu: maximian tradefortress etc!
MJR_: lol, that was a great thread, and i love erik's response
MJR_: please take me off your list
MJR_: ^^this
MJR_: lol, exactly
MJR_: jimmy hendrix was pretty cool
MJR_: anyway, the point is that people's genes don't matter, what they do matters
BTCOxygen: Anyone here interested in Investing on a 200% annual return asset ?
MJR_: OMG yes! tell me more!
MJR_: yeah, i really want to send money to someone online
kakobrekla: BTCOxygen do you have a skateboard?
MJR_: kakobrekla: YES
BTCOxygen: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=184305.0
BTCOxygen: ^^^^ This is what I am doing.
BTCOxygen: If anyone wants to Invest please PM me.
kakobrekla: imma go puke now.
BTCOxygen: Don't miss out the great Opportunity.
BTCOxygen: Opportunity only comes once.
MJR_: it sure does, you would be a fool to pass this up
MJR_: don't let this opportunity pass you by
MJR_: act now, supplies are limited
mircea_popescu: lmao this chan.
mircea_popescu: somebody was visiting and they were "why are you always on irc anyway"
mircea_popescu: i turn around, look at irc, it's... hey! read this! now you tell me.
mircea_popescu: BTCOxygen i detect insufficient yellow in your sale page.
BTCOxygen: mircea_popescu: I will add more if you want ...lol
mircea_popescu: also isn't it traditional to have a square box with shadow and reflection underneath ?
mircea_popescu: where is your box ?
BTCOxygen: Also the 2800GH/s is == 3000GH/s
BTCOxygen: I will be editing this in a few hours.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller lol that's one longass reddit post dood
kakobrekla: BMMO guy in otc?
kakobrekla: !l glbse bmmo
kakobrekla: o
kakobrekla: assy bitch
BTCOxygen: So anyone interested ?
ThickAsThieves: The more gradients, textures, and drop shadows, the more trustworthy
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hey, wanna go into that thread and be all like "o mem's totally right, we're boycotting mpex nao" ?
kakobrekla: ....
mircea_popescu: bitcoin is based on drama!
mircea_popescu: needs also trolling.
kakobrekla: but im a sloveny nigger
BTCOxygen: mircea_popescu: What does it take to launch an asset on mpex ?
Scrat: ThickAsThieves: i finally get it now
Scrat: thick ass thieves: bunch of bootycilious black chicks stealing your flatscreen TV?
Scrat: what do i win
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 10 @ 0.01629 = 0.1629 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: BTCOxygen a business plan is a good start. a wot presence is necessary.
ThickAsThieves: you win the privelege of gicing me lifetime free access to bitfetch!
ThickAsThieves: giving*
gribble: There are currently 158341.61 bitcoins demanded at or over 50.0 USD, worth 14196719.2615 USD in total. | Data vintage: 46.7810 seconds
gribble: There are currently 46909.977 bitcoins offered at or under 200.0 USD, worth 8370931.75556 USD in total. | Data vintage: 54.7003 seconds
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla slovenly somalian
mircea_popescu: could be like a band name
kakobrekla: lmao
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 1 @ 0.009996 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 3 @ 0.009996 = 0.03 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: kakobrekla sounds likea good name for a beastly street fighter character, much better than blanka
mircea_popescu: totally.
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.162 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.16101 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.161 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.16 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 13 @ 1.15 = 14.95 BTC [-]
ThickAsThieves: hey someone should tell evoorhees to get his act together
ThickAsThieves: just sayin
mircea_popescu: what he do now ?
ThickAsThieves: nothing
ThickAsThieves: that's the problem
ThickAsThieves: he keeps saying he's doing so much behind the scenes
mircea_popescu: he says they're working on things.
ThickAsThieves: so reassuring
Cylta: How much does cost 1 put or call btcusd option on MPEX? if price is fluctuating, give me aprx price, thanks!
damientrog: I just keep buying at this bottom price
damientrog: but I hope he does get his act together
ThickAsThieves: i've pretty much given up
ThickAsThieves: i so no reason not to
ThickAsThieves: see
damientrog: well I buy at 2.x
damientrog: and then resell at 3.x
damientrog: to cover for my losses
ThickAsThieves: yes i did that for a while
damientrog: but it should go up a lot more
ThickAsThieves: but its like swimming upstream
ThickAsThieves: feels cool to arb it up
ThickAsThieves: but then it never actually rises in value
ThickAsThieves: and divs are shit
damientrog: maybe next dividend makes it rise some more
ThickAsThieves: i guess at these prices it's not too bad divs-wise
damientrog: last one was complete shit of course
damientrog: I think we'll be getting 5x as much (my last calc using dooglus stats)
ThickAsThieves: erik argues away promoting the site a lot, explains away adding features, and barely communicates at all
ThickAsThieves: i know things take time
ThickAsThieves: but the whole thing is going stale
damientrog: hmm.. I'll ask him as well on Skype what the deal is
ThickAsThieves: carpe fucking diem plz
damientrog: it's a gold mine left to waste right now
ThickAsThieves: he's probly just enjoying the good life
damientrog: well hire someone to do it for you then
damientrog: if you want to enjoy the good life
damientrog: that's what I'd do
BTCOxygen: Whats the avarage annual return users are interested in ?
mircea_popescu: i wonder if anyone is noticing the striking similarities between the debates surrounding assignats back in 1790s France and the current debates re bond buying/tapering going on in the US.
error4733: ;;eightball coffee or double coffee ?
gribble: The outlook is poor.
error4733: ;;ticker m s.dice
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX]) -- Return pretty-printed mtgox ticker. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure that the three letter code you enter is a valid (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: https://bitcoin-central.net/ << updated.
error4733: !ticker m s.dice
assbot: [MPEX:S.DICE] 1D: 0.00299999 / 0.00339576 / 0.00349938 (2776 shares, 9.43 BTC), 7D: 0.0012 / 0.00275111 / 0.00371221 (72695 shares, 199.99 BTC), 30D: 0.0012 / 0.00318998 / 0.00449999 (1539370 shares, 4,910.56 BTC)
error4733: Yep, better communication this time
TomServo: mircea_popescu: I hadn't, but hadn't heard of assignats either. Does seem strikingly similar indeed. I need to read more.
mircea_popescu: do.
mircea_popescu: quite fascinating stuff for the troubles at hand.
TomServo: For sure, thanks for point it out.
TomServo: pointing*
kakobrekla: uh
kakobrekla: thats preety harsh
kakobrekla: the bitcoin central thing.
mircea_popescu: http://www.bitcoinnotbombs.com/ << who's this ?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla sucxks to be them
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8250 @ 0.00068248 = 5.6305 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 383 @ 0.00068428 = 0.2621 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9850 @ 0.00068711 = 6.768 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4699 @ 0.00069044 = 3.2444 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: closing down completley is bad
topace: !ticker h sdice
assbot: [HAVELOCK:SDICE] 1D: 0.28000003 / 0.29034105 / 0.29860000 (95 shares, 27.58240017 BTC), 7D: 0.12500000 / 0.25745377 / 0.34000000 (978 shares, 251.78978676 BTC), 30D: 0.12500000 / 0.32869628 / 0.47500000 (6867 shares, 2257.15735224 BTC)
kakobrekla: and its making the thing look worse than it is
mircea_popescu: i would guess they just need to do a complete audit by now
mircea_popescu: i can see it.
error4733: OVH as well
error4733: for small sum, it's perfect
error4733: for UE customer speaking
topace: its incomprehensible to me that anyone would use a shared/rented/vps hosting platform for anything bitcoin related
topace: if you dont own your own servers and have them locked in a cage that only you have access to, you're just asking for trouble.
mircea_popescu: topace only recently we became rich enough for most services rto afford this
topace: the iris scanners at my data center supposedly can even tell the difference between a dead eye and a live eye (so if someone kills me and takes my eyeball, tehy STILL cant get in :p)
mircea_popescu: and there's inertia in the world, people stick to what worked in the past
Diablo-D3: I have told people at least 9000 fucking times
Diablo-D3: not to do that
mircea_popescu: all iris scanners can tell that difference topace
mircea_popescu: iris scanning works by looking for pulse deformations.
topace: huh didnt know that
topace: i know very little about biometric identification, other than its fucking cool
mircea_popescu: when your heart sends a pulse the small vesells in the retina dilate.
topace: !ticker h him
assbot: [HAVELOCK:HIM] 1D: 1.44000000 / 1.54785357 / 1.84870000 (28 shares, 43.33990001 BTC), 7D: 1.44000000 / 1.70778165 / 1.87000000 (87 shares, 148.57700374 BTC), 30D: 0.75000001 / 1.66746181 / 2.08000000 (750 shares, 1250.59635382 BTC)
asciilifeform: an iris scanner is only useful if there is a man with a rifle standing next to it. otherwise the enemy can rip it off the wall and replace it with a doctored one, for replay attack.
topace: !ticker h vtx
assbot: [HAVELOCK:VTX] 1D: 0.40001000 / 0.45057476 / 0.46000000 (230 shares, 103.63219565 BTC), 7D: 0.31000000 / 0.43977087 / 0.49750000 (1237 shares, 543.99656624 BTC), 30D: 0.18000000 / 0.41107685 / 0.73925000 (6237 shares, 2563.88634246 BTC)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if there's a man with a rifle standing by it a hot chick wearing just a belt still can rip anything off she pleases.
topace: asciilifeform: the entrance to my data center is manned 24/7 behind bulletproof glass
topace: or lexan, or something
topace: and the walls and floor are 8 feet thick reinforced concrete
topace: i wonder what teh roof is like
topace: cant imagine its concrete...
asciilifeform: topace: ATMs encased in concrete (as bulletproof as it gets) are routinely stolen, using bulldozers. it might help for your cage to be several floors above ground.
error4733: everything is useless if it's a inside job...
error4733: or if your wife&kids are kidnap at house
asciilifeform: at any rate, it is much cheaper to have the owner of the servers "voluntarily" open the door. Let's say, with one of these: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/12/ff_collarbomb/ around his neck.
asciilifeform: topace: do you - personally - live, eat, work, etc. behind 8 feet of concrete? if not, the above link is relevant.
topace: hehe no, i do not
Scrat: you mean 2.43m of concrete?
Scrat: jesus fucking christ
error4733: you should ;)
mircea_popescu: whoa
mircea_popescu: this guy is like a repository of the obscure
asciilifeform: mirce_popescu: the damn collar bomb was front page news worldwide some years ago. and before that, it featured in two separate SF films, before some bastard actually built some.
mircea_popescu: i don't keep up so well with the popcult.
asciilifeform: my point, as always, is that Bitcoin users are, like it or not, playing the Big Game. and this game has rules very different from everyday "public" life, and it helps to be aware of them.
mircea_popescu: surely.
asciilifeform: I mention the collar because it is picturesque, and because it is a simple and elegant way to have a guy without a family to take hostage do something "voluntarily."
mircea_popescu: however, bitcoin users are the balding delivery man. the 5 inch gash is exceedingly more likely than the successful scavenger hunt.
mircea_popescu: s/a guy without a family/ a guy without a family who cares about you pointing guns at him/
KRS-1: 8 foot thick walls of steel reinforced concrete is a bit much to believe
asciilifeform: the idea is, if you have personal cryptographic control over serious BTC, you need to be ready (and physically equipped) to fight to the death.
asciilifeform: or partner with someone you can trust, who is.
KRS-1: i visited many data centers and the sales people at each one do a great job at making you think not even houdini could get in or out
mircea_popescu: KRS-1 all true bunkers smell faintly of pee.
asciilifeform: KRS-1: you know what routinely gets in (and out)? Replacement switches, routers, cables. That come from hell knows where.
mircea_popescu: (it's from sweat, not the actual pee)
Scrat: million tons of granite didn't help piratebay's servers from getting raided
Scrat: therefore
Scrat: granite sucks
KRS-1: haha
mircea_popescu: "Wells was a loyal employee—in 10 years, the only time he had called in late for work was when his cat died."
mircea_popescu: sucks.
jcpham: i think i'm going to change careers
jcpham: my new job requires police academy though
KRS-1: good luck if you are looking toward any kind of law enforcement or government job requiring law enforcement/police academy training.
mircea_popescu: prolly not worth the pay in the coming years.
KRS-1: They're taking all of the military personnel returning from overseas as preferential applicants by U.S. Law
mircea_popescu: ideally you want to be the fireman in winter, not dry late summer.
Diablo-D3: KRS-1: its a good policy anyhow
KRS-1: mircea_popescu: the pay was never worth anything ...I used to do it (won't mention what) but it was Government employment and the pay wasn't dick. I went back to college and entered the corporate world and never looked back. Tripled my income and wound up working less/less stress..etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: some people like fire.
KRS-1: Diablo: without a doubt.
mircea_popescu: KRS-1 now imagine all that + being paid in worthless govt script for getting quite really killed.
asciilifeform: KRS-1: this is why Blackwater (or Craft International) or who knows where else.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the people who do never work for govts.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mercenaries work for the highest bidder. at the moment, the fellows with the tinted windows are the highest bidder.
mircea_popescu: this is not even remotely true.
mircea_popescu: consider the easier and more familiar case of whores.
mircea_popescu: whores don't work for the highest bidder. they merely pretend to.
mircea_popescu: they work either for themselves, or for the coolest bidder.
KRS-1: Right, quite often not even market forces are at work with the mistresses for hire.
ThickAsThieves: what is a 'coolest bidder'?
KRS-1: heh
KRS-1: The dorky guy at the end of the bar who has the coke
ThickAsThieves: you mean the easy work?
assbot: [BTCTC] [PAJKA.BOND] 3 @ 0.09799 = 0.294 BTC [+]
KRS-1: What can I say its not hard to figure out. I frequent establishment such establishments.
ThickAsThieves: or like groupies?
KRS-1: sp. I frequent such establishments
ThickAsThieves: i know nothing of whores, but i'd assume they, like many, want the easiest work for the most pay
KRS-1: or coke
KRS-1: hell sometimes you can just buy em drinks
asciilifeform: The U.S. money printer can buy you all the coke you could dream of.
kakobrekla: ltc on gox could make for good bets
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves depends. it may be the coke, sure, but more often than not it's quite animalic.
mircea_popescu: whores are people too, they have their tickle spots, their likes, etc
ThickAsThieves: so they may prefer johns that look like good lays?
ThickAsThieves: for less pay
KRS-1: yep ..i dated a dancer or two in my time..they're fun but not worth the aggrivation most of the time
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 20 @ 0.01629 = 0.3258 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 1 @ 0.01304 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 3 @ 0.0125 = 0.0375 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: I imagine that working for Blackwater is less like being a normal whore and more like being the king's expensive mistress.
asciilifeform: At least, if you're somewhere above the bottom foot-soldier level.
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.1999 BTC [+]
ThickAsThieves: i imagine any job like that comes with a notable chance you;ll end up killed by your own too
asciilifeform: ThickAsThieves: Chris Kyle, etc
asciilifeform: it happens
topace: so kncminer announced a 6GH FPGA based miner, and a 250GH ASIC based miner ?
kakobrekla: urlpls
topace: http://www.kncminer.com/news/news-10
kakobrekla: smells scam
topace: at retail, the fpga chips from alterra are $$15k
topace: for 6GH
topace: heh $2795 for the FPGA, with "vouchers for up to $2000 off of any jupiter purchase"
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla wanna drive there ?
kakobrekla: lmao
topace: yea someone go visit them and see if they are real
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: $xxxx for ASIC; enjoying the same BTC yield as a cheap GPU today when every other chump has bought an ASIC: priceless.
kakobrekla: no loccation disclosed afaik
kakobrekla: cause its so locco
Scrat: ;;bids 0
gribble: There are currently 57729608 bitcoins demanded at or over 0.0 USD, worth 19687676.0833 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0139 seconds
Scrat: been a while since we dropped below 20M
lippoper: oh no
lippoper: we're going down?
asciilifeform: topace: the only sane place to get FPGAs is eBay or the equivalent. $100, instead of paying $XX,XXX for the same chip, because of "intellectual property" crapola.
asciilifeform: topace: you will need a reflow oven, though. (make your own.)
topace: hehe
topace: right, ill get right on that
mircea_popescu: lippoper http://trilema.com/2013/in-which-noobs-learn-lessons-and-pay-for-the-privilege/
topace: i hear bfl has fancy in-house machines
topace: that will let them ship next week
topace: :p
mircea_popescu: they can't because there's a shortage of fans
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no, shortage of Jolt Cola
mircea_popescu: they still make that ?~!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: AFAIK no, hence the shortage.
lippoper: mircea, that article you linked me to is almost a month old
lippoper: great stuff in there, but it seems out of date
lippoper: You should update and write about yesterday's bubble
kakobrekla: lol the original bitcoin-central announce ended with "We'll be back, also skateboards."
BTCOxygen: topace: Maybe you should just Invest with me and forget about ASICs :P
BTCOxygen: topace: 200% annual return is not bad tho.
mircea_popescu: lippoper it is not out of date inasmuch as btc price does what it says.
kakobrekla: love the meta debate https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=187378.msg1941436#msg1941436
mircea_popescu: so this is what they do with the milk!
kakobrekla: i added my reply.
KRS-1: BTCOxygen: I read your business plan if thats what it was- I don't see how investing with you can net more profits than if I bought some of my own units from Avalon batch 4 if there is a batch 4..considering management and Dev costs
KRS-1: Not putting your plan down or anything it does seem pretty solid
BTCOxygen: KRS-1: Management fee has been reduced to 10%
BTCOxygen: WIll update OP in a few hours.
BTCOxygen: KRS-1: The costs on our plan are similar to Batch #3 Avalon
BTCOxygen: Still with the re-investment plan the ROI is still above ~100% annually.
BTCOxygen: KRS-1: If there was Batch 4 It would be 75 BTC per unit.
BTCOxygen: plus 4 BTC for shipping
BTCOxygen: Total of 79 BTC per unit
BTCOxygen: Our operation will have 45 Avalon Units.
lippoper: that you'll be pulling from?
kakobrekla: ass.
BTCOxygen: If you buy 45 Units from Avalon it would cost 45 * 79 == 3,555 BTC
BTCOxygen: So please may I know where my plan is inefficient.
lippoper: the part where you say "If"
lippoper: ;-)
mircea_popescu: ;;getrating BTCOxygen
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. User BTCOxygen, rated since Sun Mar 10 14:32:15 2013. Cumulative rating 3, from 3 total ratings. Received ratings: 3 positive, 0 negative. Sent ratings: 3 positive, 0 negative. Details: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=BTCOxygen
mircea_popescu: now that's a first./
kakobrekla: yeah a suprise!
BTCOxygen: mircea_popescu: I Have not done much trading on OTC.
BTCOxygen: But read the Why trust us part on our thread.
BTCOxygen: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=184305.0
mircea_popescu: BTCOxygen in general people presenting themselves with a scammy nonsense thing tend to not be in the wot.
mircea_popescu: before you ask : offering to buy mining gear with opm is scammy by definition.
mircea_popescu: pretty much not one single attempt to date worked out.
BTCOxygen: Hey We have been Operating a pool since Octobor 2012.
BTCOxygen: And have been in the bitcoin community for a long time.
kakobrekla: so you put down 0.1 btc of your own money? https://blockchain.info/address/1VbWxiGEa1d89ZigFuWWeP5CjDJSK6Xdi
kakobrekla: lots of confidence
BTCOxygen: kakobrekla: Thats done for testing purpose.
kakobrekla: O_o
kakobrekla: to see if bitcoin works?
mircea_popescu: BTCOxygen yes i get it, since oct 2012. nevertheless.
mircea_popescu: this mining farm thing doesn't work. people who can afford asics can just get them
asciilifeform: Somehow, all the ASIC "shares" schemes remind me of American chumps buying refrigerators on installment plans, with the payments totalling to the cost of a car.
mircea_popescu: people who can't aren't numerous enough to make anything of the sort you're contemplatin workable.
asciilifeform: "The miser pays twice."
mircea_popescu: there was some marginal business sense in the old gpu days, because running a large gpu farm was non trivial
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, people still chose to pocket the investor's hardware.
mircea_popescu: i think the skepsidyne integrated node is pretty much the obligatory blueprint for all such pooled mining farm ventures.
BTCOxygen: kakobrekla: That was sent to my offline wallet.
BTCOxygen: Was testing that.
kakobrekla: so you are putting down 0 of your own funds for this
mircea_popescu: well he got the idea...
BTCOxygen: kakobrekla: I will put my funds into this once I see some interest.
kakobrekla: lol ok.
BTCOxygen: I will be the second investor.... lol
kakobrekla: glwt
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 801 @ 0.00069044 = 0.553 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2550 @ 0.0006914 = 1.7631 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6699 @ 0.00069443 = 4.652 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 5 @ 1.7999 = 8.9995 BTC [-]
BTCOxygen: kakobrekla: Still the ROI is very good on this.
kakobrekla: pirate had better roi
BTCOxygen: kakobrekla: but pirate == Scammer.
kakobrekla: hey paid yesterday
kakobrekla: he
BTCOxygen: lol.
kakobrekla: yea he came on a skateboard
kakobrekla: dropped the bag.
mircea_popescu: no, pirate was just a guy trying to leverage "lot of trust" into "give me money", with no businessm odel.
mircea_popescu: just like you.
mod6: holy shit i always forget that you can use `openssl dgst`
mod6: these damn vsphere instances dont have any one-way hash bins on the local fs :/ -- openssl to the rescue ftw
asciilifeform: oldie but goodie: http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/01/31/stone-soup-for-the-capitalists-soul/
asciilifeform: "You are fair game for hustlers who understand your wealth better than you do."
mircea_popescu: i prefer to express that idea in the terms of the converse perspective.
mircea_popescu: your wealth is, much like your mistress, always ready to ditch you if you suck.
asciilifeform: "fool and his money soon parted", etc
KRS-1: mod6: we have much in common
kakobrekla: http://www.asicrigs.com/
kakobrekla: lol?
kakobrekla: no i aint driving.
deadweasel: i ain't swimmin
KRS-1: mp: you always have such great ways of putting things lol nice
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 650 @ 0.00068032 = 0.4422 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20600 @ 0.00067869 = 13.981 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6550 @ 0.00067663 = 4.4319 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.00067399 = 6.5377 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5292 @ 0.00069443 = 3.6749 BTC [+]
deadweasel: &avg
gribble: Error: "avg" is not a valid command.
deadweasel: $avg
mpexbot: deadweasel: 151.30
topace: BTCOxygen: i already do have 20BTC "invested" with you :p gonna make another paymetn soon ?
kakobrekla: O_o
BTCOxygen: topace: Yea, Very soon.
BTCOxygen: topace: Do you want to invest those into Our Project ?
BTCOxygen: Then you would have 40 BTC :P
mircea_popescu: topace ok, wut ?
BTCOxygen: secret. :P
mircea_popescu: did you default on some obligation and end up with a payment schedule sort of arrangement ?
BTCOxygen: mircea_popescu: No, He is still getting payments. Buts its secret.
BTCOxygen: but*
BTCOxygen: topace: btw... I have sent you a PM.
seongyupyoo: hello?
kakobrekla: yes, this is dog.
seongyupyoo: dog?
kakobrekla: http://pigroll.com/img/hello_yes_this_is_dog.jpg
seongyupyoo: lol
topace: mircea_popescu: not really secret, i started mining with btcoxygen when he first started to help "test" his site... I asked for payment on the account from the hashes i contributed, but he didnt have the btc, so he's paying me slowly as he can.
kakobrekla: which site?
topace: btcoxygen.com
seongyupyoo: is mircea here? I got a tweet from him asking to join this chatroom about nashx
kakobrekla: he is around
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo heya
seongyupyoo: hey! sorry about 5hrs late
mircea_popescu: topace you mined on his pool yet he didn't have the btc ?! odd. anyway, thanks.
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo so we were discussing your idea earlier, the nashx
kakobrekla: which idea is that
seongyupyoo: yeah
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla nashx.com/about i think
mircea_popescu: one major question is how do you deal with trolls ?
seongyupyoo: yes
topace: mircea_popescu: yea, guess he didnt find a block for a while, but was still doign PPS
topace: and didnt have a "float" to cover bad luck
mircea_popescu: say I just make a deal in order to destroy opm. just for the kicks.
mircea_popescu: topace ah yeah. i see.
mircea_popescu: isn't pps kinda a bad model for mining ? as in, high risk of pool bankruptcy ?
BTCOxygen: topace: Yes, Also the mining server was not funtioning correctly at that time.
kakobrekla: only for small ones
seongyupyoo: you understand both parties of the trade risk same amount going into a deal?
BTCOxygen: It was a bug that never sent in blocks to bitcoind which is fixed now.
topace: yea, a few days of bad luck can bankrupt a small pool that doesnt have a good float
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo yes.
asciilifeform: NashX seems like a pretty good idea. It reminds me of my "Shitcoin" proposal (http://www.loper-os.org/?p=988). The real problem is that the "destruction" isn't real destruction - somebody ends up with the BTC. Moral hazard.
BTCOxygen: But I have been paying you from my pocket.
seongyupyoo: i don't think there is anything that can be done about those types of people who don't mind just throwing away money for kicks
topace: too bad you didnt pay it all back at $8/btc :p
mircea_popescu: ok, another question seongyupyoo
seongyupyoo: i was thinking there won't be any
mircea_popescu: suppose i want to sell 100 btc.
mircea_popescu: someone wants to buy just 1.5
seongyupyoo: ok
mircea_popescu: can we deal or does he have to do 100 specifically ?
seongyupyoo: in that case, he or you can make an offer for 1.5 for certain amount, and you should require both risking 3
mircea_popescu: so i would need to make a new offer basically ?
mircea_popescu: MJR_ ^
seongyupyoo: yes
seongyupyoo: why what do you think might be better?
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo atm just trying to understand the system in my head.
seongyupyoo: you would not be making a 100 btc sale offer i don't think ever
mircea_popescu: what about the byzantine problem ? ie, we both satisfy trade, i wait for him to release and then
mircea_popescu: i destroy his coins anyway.
seongyupyoo: when one decides to destroy, all risked funds get destroyed including your own
mircea_popescu: how do you implement this ?
seongyupyoo: well all funds are at risk as long as both have released it, and when anyone destroys, it destroys all funds
mircea_popescu: yes but i mean... this is all handled at the website level ?
mircea_popescu: ie, your own software does this ?
seongyupyoo: yes
asciilifeform: seongyupyoo: using the word "destroy" when the BTC ends up in your pocket is disingenuous
mircea_popescu: how is the destruction actually implemented ?
seongyupyoo: yes, i won't be keeping in in the near future
mircea_popescu: sent to 10000000000000we ?
seongyupyoo: it will be distributed to active traders
mircea_popescu: o
mircea_popescu: well wait.
mircea_popescu: if im the most active trader i have a perverse incentive to scam ?
seongyupyoo: i just don't want to go into coding all of that without knowing that this app will get any traction
seongyupyoo: so i just wanted to get something working out there for people to see
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo it's got my interest, which as anyone will tell you is darned rare.
seongyupyoo: gather feedback and go from there
seongyupyoo: that's pretty cool :)
mircea_popescu: so suppose i do 80% of trade on yoru site. does this mean i get 80% of all "Destroyed" funds ?
seongyupyoo: well sounds like you're exactly the type of person i would want trading on nashx, so let me know what you think, and i'll try to make it work for you, and that should work for everyone
mircea_popescu: lol that's an idea.
seongyupyoo: that is an idea... i was originally thinking i would just see past few days logins and distribute evenly, as that would be the easiest to implement
seongyupyoo: but what you're suggesting is possible
mircea_popescu: i was asking because i think it's a horrible idea.
seongyupyoo: not sure if it's better idea though yet
seongyupyoo: why?
asciilifeform: why not use actual destruction (send to a blackhole address) ?
mircea_popescu: because it gives people perverse incentives.
seongyupyoo: how so?
seongyupyoo: i thought about giving it to charity also
mircea_popescu: in your model (active logins) : suppose you have 100 users. i make 9900 spam accounts and log them in daily.
seongyupyoo: but then it gives them bad incentie
mircea_popescu: if i scam someone i get ~99% of the funds ?
seongyupyoo: yup, you're right
seongyupyoo: didn't think about that
seongyupyoo: guess i won't be doing that
mircea_popescu: yeah.
seongyupyoo: thanks!
mircea_popescu: the volume one is very bad but slightly less bad than the active logins
seongyupyoo: volume one doesn't sound bad
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform's solution is arguably better than both
mircea_popescu: even if it is still very bad i think (because bitcoin destruction is bad imo)
seongyupyoo: yeah but really destroying money?
mircea_popescu: ikr.
mircea_popescu: still,think : in the volume approach, i can wash trade myself into the 99% position.
seongyupyoo: i could do like a pick your own charity also
KRS-1: heh
mircea_popescu: o i got an idea :
seongyupyoo: what?
mircea_popescu: send it to s.dice.
mircea_popescu: if you win then you have enough money to repay both
kakobrekla: ipo and release that as dividends.
mircea_popescu: if you lose, fuck them, do better next time
mircea_popescu: or that, yeah, maybe. bitbet is doing something similar for bad bets.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this just shifts the moral hazard to the SDICE people.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how ?
seongyupyoo: that's giving sdice bad incentive to do odd things on nashx
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: now if I run SDICE, I have the incentive to siphon BTC by triggering "destruciton."
asciilifeform: *destruction
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why, for the 1.9% margin ?!
asciilifeform: yes. free money is free money.
mircea_popescu: maybe you're right.
mircea_popescu: well fuck lol
mircea_popescu: i never thought we'd have the problem of what to do with moneyz
seongyupyoo: well i think my margin would be higher than that
seongyupyoo: if the bet wins, it comes back to me right?
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo s.dice takes 1.9% of bets is what i mean.
seongyupyoo: so i would have incentive to try to increase destruction
mircea_popescu: yes, say two people each put 1 btc in. they destrouy
mircea_popescu: you send 2 btc to sdice, get 4 or w/e
asciilifeform: Shitcoin wins, because everything is 100% voluntary. You don't even see the burned coin as burned if you don't use it.
mircea_popescu: and you use that 4 to split among them
kakobrekla: lol
mircea_popescu: (because now they both have the original results they wanted)
seongyupyoo: ahhh....
mircea_popescu: sorta like "Saved by god"
seongyupyoo: interesting... so that would drive scammers to scam more for a chance to undo their scam for free
mircea_popescu: hm... fuck.
mircea_popescu: no wait.
mircea_popescu: that's not a problem. scammers are already 100% driven to scam 100% what they can
mircea_popescu: not like there's a scammer anywhere going "o, you know what, let's just do 50% of scamming"
seongyupyoo: maybe it could temp regular folks to take the money and run a little more?
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 1.1647 = 2.3294 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: i guess that's possible tho.
seongyupyoo: it's definitely interesting idea i'll keep in mind, so far one of the best and most unique
asciilifeform: you might as well suggest that banks should play in casinos to recoup bad debts. it is nonsense to use SDICE as part of any kind of rational system (other than a chump harvester, of course.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but this is the irrational part of reason : disposing of "bad".
mircea_popescu: like, putting peiople in jail. this is jailed money as it were.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't disposal if you give it to a third party.
seongyupyoo: these are very interesting questions... banks playing in casinos lol
mircea_popescu: my original inspiration was purely greek.
asciilifeform: see this: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
mircea_popescu: you'd have a "gods call it" tyope of thing
mircea_popescu: but i think it's fully argued, i don't see anything more for it than what;s been said.
asciilifeform: fines have to go to /dev/null to be truly fair
mircea_popescu: you're just a humourless protestant that's why you think so :D
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo why you say people woudln't use this for 100 btc ?
seongyupyoo: is there no party who can take this money and not be incentivized to do bad?
asciilifeform: funny that, I'm an ethnic atheist. but I do see the spice and humour in "trial by combat."
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo btc is pseudonymous, remember ?
MJR_: i was thinking of scamming but only wanted to do 50% of my possible scamming
seongyupyoo: well, if you want to make 1 transaction of size 100, then you need to be risking about 200 btc
seongyupyoo: as opposed to
KRS-1: someone just dropped 192 BTC on litecoins
seongyupyoo: if you're making 100 transactions of 1, then you only need to be risking 2btc
asciilifeform: seongyupyoo: /dev/null is a perfectly disinterested third party who will never do you ill.
mircea_popescu: ya, and i'll be managing 100 txs x.x
MJR_: i like systems based on mutually assured destruction
mircea_popescu: anyway, the wrap-up for me seongyupyoo : it's certainly an interesting concept. it brings however very deep philosophical questions to the fore. impossible to know if it'll acrtually be a productive business at this point
seongyupyoo: yeah that's another thing i have to think about also
MJR_: his inspiration was mexican standoffs in movies LOL
mircea_popescu: so something worth doing with your time if you're in a research mood. if you're in bread earner mood dunno.
MJR_: yes, it is interesting from a theoretical standpoint
asciilifeform: other thing is that a scheme like this has to rely on an open/verifiable crypto-contract protocol, rather than some guy's phone app
mircea_popescu: i think that's not so hard to do tho.
mircea_popescu: m/n keys etc.
seongyupyoo: well that's been brought up a lot on reddit, but issue is
MJR_: yeah, is bitcoinity working correctly for everyone?
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 154.03650, Best ask: 155.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.96350, Last trade: 154.03649, 24 hour volume: 122998.14095664, 24 hour low: 140.96635, 24 hour high: 162.00000, 24 hour vwap: 152.51401
asciilifeform: seongyupyoo: what's the advantage of your scheme vs. Shitcoin, in your view?
mircea_popescu: i see it.
seongyupyoo: if you start getting in the middle of transactions between traders, it starts becoming really difficult when you try to get in the middle of the USD transactions
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i confess not knowing wtf shitcoin is or how it works.
seongyupyoo: i don't know shitcoin
asciilifeform: Shitcoin: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=988
MJR_: his exchange seems to be based on a ltc to btc model...which could work if i didn't find ltc useless
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo that is a big problem. i imagined you'd only allow people risk btc, and so your service couldn't be used for 1st time btc buyers
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17650 @ 0.00069521 = 12.2705 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: Shitcoin was my own modest proposal for MAD/Nash equilibrium reputation management/bonds
seongyupyoo: well i'm not sure what you're saying
seongyupyoo: NashX doesn't answer any transactions
seongyupyoo: just the risks
mircea_popescu: "to collectively specify the least-significant digits of the total amount" ahahaha ok mpex lives!
mod6: (10:11) < KRS-1> someone just dropped 192 BTC on litecoins << o.O
mod6: haha wow
asciilifeform: I wrote that before I was told of mpex (and before I was really 100% clear on how the BTC protocol works.)
seongyupyoo: so once a deal is made between two parties, it's completely up to them to do whatever they need to do to make their deal
mircea_popescu: One potential problem with the scheme is that innocent receivers of bonded bitcoins would suffer if the shitcoins attached to said bitcoins are invoked at a later time. The obvious countermeasure is for would-be receivers of a particular bitcoin to check (using automated means, of course) whether an unexpired Shitcoin bond is attached to these coins at the particular time they are about to receive them.
mircea_popescu: this is bad tho. you can't refuse a tx.
asciilifeform: sure you can. bitbet does all the time (send it back.)
mircea_popescu: bitcoin isn't universally compatible with this sendfback thing tho
mircea_popescu: but maybe
seongyupyoo: i have no idea what shitcoin getting attached to a bitcoin means
asciilifeform: also, since you can have infinitely-many addresses, being sent shat-on coins doesn't hurt you (you will need to come up with clean ones to post a bond, but for other purposes dirty ones will do fine)
mircea_popescu: i know it'd piss me off if i had to check all incoming mpex funds for this tho
mod6: ^^^
asciilifeform: clean coins can be thought of as "eating sardines"
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo http://www.loper-os.org/?p=988 we were discussing that
asciilifeform: the best part is that shitcoin can't do anything whatsoever to you if you don't use it.
asciilifeform: you can simply carry on pretending it doesn't exist (of course, at present it doesn't exist at all, and isn't likely to)
ThickAsThieves: with nashx, the main problem is just deciding how to handle "destroyed" btc, is that right?
MJR_: taint is an interesting idea
MJR_: ThickAsThieves: he said for now he keeps them, since he doesn't see that happening
ThickAsThieves: surely itll happen
MJR_: but he would implement a distribution system if it turned out to be a problem
MJR_: equally pay out all participants i guess
ThickAsThieves: could there be tx fees that were somehow porportionate to the amount of destroyed btc?
seongyupyoo: shitcoin sounds like an overall bad idea... not sure what purpose it serves to have metadata on how dirty a coin is, an dwhat makes it dirty and who decides
ThickAsThieves: to create a balance without incentive to game it
MJR_: the point of metadata is that you can ignore it...
MJR_: if you don't want to participate in the system, it doesn't matter to you
MJR_: so since its voluntary, all the best, have fun
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.125467 BTC [-]
seongyupyoo: i see, but still out of curious what purpose does it serve?
ThickAsThieves: serves to distract us from nashx
ThickAsThieves: ;)
MJR_: trying to make coins which are used illicitly be tracked
seongyupyoo: yes two problem i see with nashx now is destroyed coins
MJR_: for example, pirate's coins would probably not be spendable
MJR_: under that system
seongyupyoo: and how to handle big transactions or allow many quick small transactions
MJR_: seongyupyoo: he doesn't actually destroy them
ThickAsThieves: can large tx initiate large, but resolve in chunks?
MJR_: he just doesn't give them to the people actually wanting them
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: hahaha. I'm sick of the retards.
asciilifeform: you have to destroy coins for real (that is, threaten to) to punish without creating perverse incentive for the party triggering the punishment.
MJR_: i personally like bitcoin just the way it is, i haven't seen another system which brings anything valuable to the table in my opinino
mod6: i hate the idea of coin 'taint'
ThickAsThieves: what if you donate the destroyed coins as TX fees into blockchain
MJR_: asciilifeform: "destroy" "me not get" same difference
MJR_: his plan was to give it to market participants
seongyupyoo: yes, that would still mean they each have to make many transactions
MJR_: dividend of sorts
mircea_popescu: <ThickAsThieves> what if you donate the destroyed coins as TX fees into blockchain << this may work
seongyupyoo: because transactions are done by the traders themselves, not by nashx
mircea_popescu: it will be difficulty to argue that miners are extra incentivised thus
MJR_: ok...and whichever coins you want to lose, you can just lose?
ThickAsThieves: :)
seongyupyoo: that would work
seongyupyoo: kind of still similar to putting it in blackhole
ThickAsThieves: except it gets redist at least
seongyupyoo: yup
seongyupyoo: so it is better
MJR_: it gets redist right now...
kakobrekla: basically you are giving them to pool ops
kakobrekla: most ops take those fees in the pocket
seongyupyoo: i think that may be the answer
MJR_: ^^ true
seongyupyoo: hmm..
ThickAsThieves: kako that is a pool problem
ThickAsThieves: not a nashx problem
MJR_: i think the major problem with all these decentralized exchange ideas is that they have no concept of fiat money, and do nothing to solve that problem
seongyupyoo: still pool ops are incentivized to destroy
ThickAsThieves: yes, but
kakobrekla: ThickAsThieves its nashxes since it cant be used as solution
MJR_: that is why its best to distribute to people who are using nashX
ThickAsThieves: if there is great incentive for tx fees
ThickAsThieves: then a pool that shares them will win
seongyupyoo: what do you mean no concept of fiat money?
MJR_: how do i do a p2p transfer of $155?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 11 @ 0.4551 = 5.0061 BTC [-]
MJR_: i want to trade! i will roll up the bills and push them through ethernet?
ThickAsThieves: i didnt even know most pools dont share tx fees, is that true?!
seongyupyoo: how to distribute among nashx traders is another issue,,, like it was brought up before people can make fake accounts and many face transactions
kakobrekla: no im just making shit up as i go
MJR_: lol kakobrekla
seongyupyoo: that sounds about right that pool ops wouldn't share
ThickAsThieves: surely there are pools that do
MJR_: you can look up a spreadsheet that tells you each pool's rules...also, who cares
ThickAsThieves: also, the coins dist by donated tx fees could easily be spread out thin
ThickAsThieves: and over time
kakobrekla: that solves the problem! not.
ThickAsThieves: even if pool ops gain, they have no way to game it
ThickAsThieves: are there not pools that share collected tx fees?
MJR_: the entire idea is only interesting as a theoretical philosophical exercise
seongyupyoo: so what is this chat room
ThickAsThieves: i dunno, i'm all for a distributed exchange
seongyupyoo: how many people here actively?
ThickAsThieves: maybe 15-25 are active
kakobrekla: philosophical masturbation seongyupyoo sometimes even physical
seongyupyoo: yeah i'd like to see a distributed exchange also
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/regarding-money/ < if anyone feels like a read
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.455 BTC [-]
seongyupyoo: anyways, i enjoyed chatting with you guys
seongyupyoo: i will come back if i ever have any questions
mircea_popescu: seongyupyoo don't listen to kakobrekla and trolls
mircea_popescu: this is the place for bitcoin biz.
seongyupyoo: lol
seongyupyoo: does red mean private message?
mircea_popescu: no, you were highlighted
seongyupyoo: anyways take care
mircea_popescu: if someone says your name.
seongyupyoo: oh i see
MJR_: great article...think the same thing as far as its all about the value
MJR_: not the money
MJR_: total money = total value
mircea_popescu: but why should these be distinct ?
MJR_: anyways, lunch time, cya later
MJR_: mircea_popescu: they are one and the same
mircea_popescu: im going to cook! so... later.
MJR_: currency is shifting, "money" is 100% of value...semantics i suppose
MJR_: but yeah, how much of the value of the world do you have under your control = making it rain on bitches or not
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 17 @ 0.4055 = 6.8935 BTC [-]
tk993: War starting to rage over bitcoin price.
mod6: starting?
tk993: toche.
tk993: Perhaps I meant a little battle.
mod6: mircea_popescu: i saw that 'dawn' deleted all those tweets. glad you followed it up with this: http://trilema.com/2013/fire-in-alabama-lets-make-the-most-of-it/
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 1 @ 1.7999 BTC [-]
mod6: jeeze people over here are just a bunch of fake-it-till-you-make-it phonies
jborkl: https://twitter.com/BFL_News
jborkl: BFL sends a demo unit to Wired
mod6: well, at least these people in the MSM certainly all seem to be
topace: so, question - my webserver ie behind cloudflare, but it sends emails, the receiving SMTP server adds a "received from:" header to the message, revealign the IP of my server..
jborkl: assholes
topace: whats the solution to this? dont send emails? lol.
ThickAsThieves: dont send emails from your server?
Scrat: topace: I can still find your ip
topace: scrat yea probably
ThickAsThieves: dmca request?
Scrat: (not with a fake dmca)
ThickAsThieves: hrm
topace: Scrat: pelase let me know my IP, im changing it soon as i get the email thing figured out www.havelockinvestments.com
Scrat: you can query all 4 billion IPs on port 80 within a day
Scrat: one of them will present a http 200 for the host header havelockinvestments.com
topace: ahh
topace: i guess thats one way
topace: heh
assbot: [BTCTC] [CRYPTO-TRADE] 1 @ 0.1998 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: mod6 was funny lol. she beleeeted it!!1
Scrat: akamai can setup a custom X-Header so you know it's them, you check for it and show vhost not found if it's not them
mod6: haha! i'm getting so sick of these clowns
Scrat: no idea if cloudflare does that
ThickAsThieves: heh, check ou this spike http://bitcoin.clarkmoody.com/
mircea_popescu: <jborkl> BFL sends a demo unit to Wired did wired say anything yet ?
mircea_popescu: topace ouch. that';s no good.
ThickAsThieves: wired tweeted the delivery
Scrat: ThickAsThieves: sponsored by jesus himself
mircea_popescu: Scrat try this on mpex ?
ThickAsThieves: i should have clarified to look at the M1 chart to see the spike
Scrat: mircea_popescu: are you implying that it doesn't work? it can be avoided however if reverse proxies have set IPs and your webservers whitelist said IPs
mircea_popescu: im just curious.
Scrat: no anti-ddos service has set IPs, they juggle them around, nullroute them ,etc
Scrat: takes a few ec2 machines to do it in a few hours, at a minimal cost
topace: actually, simply setting Allow from IP's in apache should fix that problem scrat
topace: so apache wont reply to any host thats not cloudflare
mircea_popescu: i'll save you the 4bn lookups : mpex.co. 474 IN A
topace: could even firewall out all other IP's
Scrat: topace: here's the problem, they don't have set IPs
topace: yes they do
topace: https://www.cloudflare.com/ips
Scrat: they change netblocks
Scrat: how often does that list change
topace: very little from what i can tell
topace: im sure they add/remove occasionally
ll: the ips are in your spf record
topace: ll: only if you put them there
topace: ill obviously be removing them when i switch IP's
topace: and leaving it as just the mail server im sending out from
topace: but i still need a way for tha tmail server not to add a "Received from:" header
Scrat: topace: would be a good idea then (to whitelist these blocks)
ll: can get it from your dns servers too
topace: ll: nope, dns is cloudflare
ll: no, your dns server
ll: dig havelockinvestments.com @ns1.lightbox.org
topace: heh, forgot to deconfigure that
topace: its gone now, try again
ll: yep
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.125038 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 2 @ 1.125037 = 2.2501 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.125036 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.12501 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 8 @ 1.125 = 9 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.123011 BTC [-]
topace: so i can deal with a bruteforce scan of the entire ip4 range on port 80, by whitelisting/firewalling the cloudflare IP's
topace: but i still dont know what to do with the damn "received from" header
topace: i guess insert emails to send into a database, and have another server pull them out and send the mail from there
Scrat: what do you use to send emails
Scrat: is the smtp server yours?
topace: yes, i would send through my business mail server (mail.lightbox.org)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4100 @ 0.00069521 = 2.8504 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21050 @ 0.0006973 = 14.6782 BTC [+]
Scrat: managed email delivery isn't such a bad idea
Scrat: sendgrid, postmark, whatever
Scrat: also, prettu sure most SMTPd's can remove the from IP
Scrat: i know postfix can
topace: hmmm i use postfix
mircea_popescu: even better, point it to wh
topace: wh?
Scrat: even better, have a stunnel on the smtp machine that points to it
Scrat: encrypted sending :)
Scrat: (useless but meh)
MJR_: stunnel nice
mircea_popescu: lol
MJR_: i like pgp plus stunnel...
MJR_: pgp is more important, but i think stunnel is good protection from ddos
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu I just realized you can use options as real insurance
thestringpuller: slowpoke meme
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.12201 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.122 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.1151 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.11 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 5 @ 1.11 = 5.55 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 5 @ 1.106 = 5.53 BTC [-]
MJR_: whats up with the OIX?
mod6: no options bought or sold
mod6: and today is options expiration
mod6: err tomorrow.
mod6: my guess is that the OIX return to its normal state of tracking pricing via options once the book rolls over for next month. every since the correction on the 10th it's been pretty minimal for options.
mod6: i dunno. *shrug*
mod6: $vwap ^OIX
mpexbot: mod6: ^OIX 1 day: no data 7 day: no data 30 day: no data
ThickAsThieves: gribble always amazes me
ThickAsThieves: [15:00] <+Rav3n> ;;8ball am i screwed?
ThickAsThieves: [15:00] <gribble> The outlook is poor.
ThickAsThieves: [15:01] <+Rav3n> ;;8ball does that mean I'm gonna lose big time?
ThickAsThieves: [15:01] <gribble> It is so.
ThickAsThieves: [15:01] <+Rav3n> fuck
ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash
gribble: 73122.7340805
jurov: reading it all up... i thing i got a plan to boycott mpex.
jurov: CoinBr is boycotting racist exchange!!!
jurov: (*)Balances will not be refunded.
jurov: i like that plan, what do you say?
mod6: heheh. i just smh at stuff I read on btctalk
mod6: most of it anyway
mircea_popescu: mod6 quite likely.
mircea_popescu: also pls don't boycott mpex
mircea_popescu: every time you boycott mpex I whip a kitten.
mod6: haha
mircea_popescu: mine are freshly shaved
mircea_popescu: http://reason.com/archives/2005/08/01/who-killed-paypal/print
mircea_popescu: this is a good lol.
jimbo2k: is there a way to short bitcoins?
mircea_popescu: while one Silicon Valley lawyer wrote in the California legal publication The Recorder that PayPal was an ideal money laundering mechanism for "drug dealers and domestic terrorists,"
mircea_popescu: jimbo2k you can buy puts/sell calls short on mpex.
jurov: seongyupyoo, what about sending the btc to *minable* blackhole and publish the challenge?
jurov: oh hes away
jurov: interesting stuff happens when i;m not around, as always
kakobrekla: go away
kakobrekla: joke
kakobrekla: (jurov)
kakobrekla: fyi that is a hug.
ThickAsThieves: mp I am interested to know what you think about Gov Rick Scott, FL, wanting welfare recipients to take and pass drug tests to qualify
assbot: [BTCTC] [ASICMINER-PT] 1 @ 1.178799 BTC [+]
MJR_: ThickAsThieves: YES, i am curious too
kakobrekla: ;;goxlag
gribble: MtGox lag is 0.517559 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.00103718244112 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin to the other side of the Earth, along the surface (0.0001339 AU).
MJR_: but, if i had to guess, why are we giving them anything drug test or not...do drugs all you want and support yourself...
MJR_: however, i think that they should do this to any ceo or board member of a company that needs a bailout
MJR_: since they will also be accepting public assistance, we want to make sure they won't spend it on drugs!
ThickAsThieves: i cant pinpoint why i dont like perfectly
ThickAsThieves: it just seems like mixing issues to me
MJR_: jurov: that is a great idea...i like the idea of remining coins
MJR_: ThickAsThieves: i think its abhorrent, but most people would say that the issue is not drugs but rather welfare...that is where the issues mix, what does drugs have to do with welfare? (you could argue that one leads to the other, but i think that is a simplistic, facile argument)
ThickAsThieves: and where do you draw the line?
ThickAsThieves: if they gain 40lbs do they lose welfare?
jurov: as soon as you want to assess welfare recipient eligibility, you sow the seeds of potentially unbounded bureaucracy
jurov: so let's have equal minimal income, or no welfare at all
ThickAsThieves: if they get a parking ticket do they lose welfare?
ThickAsThieves: its too much like parenting or something
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9157 @ 0.00069843 = 6.3955 BTC [+]
joecool: jurov: that's about the best way to look at it, the muddy middleground always ends up bad
jurov: topace, amazon offers SES service for email where any received from: headers are all unroutable private IPs
jurov: i plan to use it
jurov: and the port 80 problem can be solver by using another port and telling cloudflare to use it
jurov: increases portscan complexity 65000x
asciilifeform: The proposal to test welfare recipients for drugs reminds me of:
jurov: omg, i was only admin for 7 years in a little company
asciilifeform: " It is a curious fact that in America public assistance is only made available to the miserable and the downtrodden, not to those who are in need of some free money but are otherwise perfectly content. Although it is just as possible to be poor and happy in America as anywhere else, here one must make a choice: to avoid any number of unpleasant situations, one must be careful to hide either the fact that one is
asciilifeform: poor, or the fact that one is happy."
asciilifeform: (http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/08/miserable-pursuits.html)
jurov: don't tell me nobody other can think about such things????
jurov: perhaps everyone aho should be thinking about practical security is jerking off about taxes and welfare???
topace: http://www.businessinsider.com/canadian-banks-closing-bitcoin-businesses-2013-4
jurov: like yesterday. i had nice talk about how to be safe in bitcoinland and about all the heists
kakobrekla: !sell vtx -all
jurov: but had to wait for libertard who expounded for hour and a half
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves well... i don't have an opinion.
jurov: and drove half of audience away
jurov: /rant
mircea_popescu: jurov was this your conference thing you were going to ?
jurov: it was this: https://www.progressbar.sk/calendar/bitcoinove-trhy bitcoin markets for newbs
mircea_popescu: aha
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dunno about that theory rly. burning man is all about showing off how poor and happy you are
mircea_popescu: chicks apparently dig it.
ThickAsThieves: you dont have an opinion?
ThickAsThieves: really?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: burning man is full of "marie antoinette poor", not actual poor.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves well yes.
ThickAsThieves: how about a anthropological or philosophical perspective then
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the difference matters.
mircea_popescu: it's catch-22. allowing idiots to use drugs is certainly going to lead to this business-enforced drug policy. because it's cheaper to pay crackheads and who the fuck cares they die in five years, all the better.
mircea_popescu: disalowing it is too much like parenting.
ThickAsThieves: i also find it to be in contrast to the current republican agenda
ThickAsThieves: gov is telling people how to live
ThickAsThieves: i guess they hate gays too...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nobody would bother testing the poor for drugs if they didn't need to work.
mircea_popescu: here's the thing : there's always going to be a class of people who need to be told how to live.
mircea_popescu: be it roman empire slaves or contemporary us social media crowds,
mircea_popescu: it's a fact.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: Aristotle's natural slaves?
ThickAsThieves: is that a need or a preference?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they only test them at the workplace cause that's the food dispenser.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves it's simple inability.
mircea_popescu: motherfucker. got a new camera, has EVEN SMALLER USB
asciilifeform: (re: slaves: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/03/sam-altman-is-not-blithering-idiot.html)
mircea_popescu: aha! at least they include cable. way to go sony.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hmm... i think i wrote an article about altman recently
ThickAsThieves: now we're gonna get even more MP self-shots
mircea_popescu: what, is the modlbug reading me ?!
asciilifeform: drug testing is a multibillion-dollar business in the U.S.; arguably it is the employers who are the chumps here (they are bamboozled into thinking that it matters whether the fry cook smokes dope.)
ThickAsThieves: can we get a picture of you taking a picture of you taking a picture of yourself?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the us employers are forced into being a sort of government subsidiary.
mircea_popescu: they implement govt policy, handle the herd, get some trimmings.
ThickAsThieves: god forbid they put the money into improving education
asciilifeform: AFAIK testing mcdonalds cooks isn't mandatory (vs. truck drivers etc)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: altman is an infamous social butterfly / master investor milker. most of his success is from being chums with paul graham.
mircea_popescu: aka the freakshow.
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves education can not be improved with money.
mircea_popescu: the only way to do it is if you take the urban poor, beat them and starve them.
mircea_popescu: that doesn't take money, that takes the will to do so.
jurov: mircea_popescu does any research at least marginally confirm this?
mircea_popescu: yes, my own.
mircea_popescu: afaik nobody has done research on beating people.
ThickAsThieves: i am skeptical the money cannot be used to improve american education
jurov: no, but they did on literacy/math skills
ThickAsThieves: there are many ways to throw money at education the dont work
ThickAsThieves: that doesnt mean it cant be done
jurov: and it isn't so much about money. but not about beating, either.
mircea_popescu: listen, it's very simple. kid today as 5000 years ago has to answer a simple question : why the fuck am i learning all this ?
mircea_popescu: "because if you don't i'll fucking beat you to death" is an excellent answer.
mircea_popescu: find another.
ThickAsThieves: so the money goes to determining better ways and things to educate
asciilifeform: the urban poor are a tremendous profit making engine for various industries (e.g. pharma: http://partialobjects.com/2011/06/staggering-thought-of-the-day/) into which oceans of money are funneled through them.
ThickAsThieves: when i was in school i was smart enough to know i was not being taught the way that suited me
ThickAsThieves: the way we teach is not optimal at all
mircea_popescu: that's the point of teaching
mircea_popescu: to change you.
ThickAsThieves: some teachers reached me
ThickAsThieves: others annoyed me
mircea_popescu: until you're optimal for it. not the other fucking way around.
ThickAsThieves: also, we already require too much parenting by teachers
ThickAsThieves: now you wanna beat the kids
jurov: there certainly is research about punishment to performance. on better statistical sample than mircea's
asciilifeform: any system of organizing society (education, work, whatever) that doesn't include a hard mechanism for separating actual people from meat puppets is doomed.
ThickAsThieves: its not hard to prove that beating someone gets them to do what you want...
ThickAsThieves: stats not needed
mircea_popescu: jurov punishment only works if the punished literally perceives there is no alternative and his life is forfeit.
ThickAsThieves: you cant jump to extremes
mircea_popescu: otherwise it's dicking about.
jurov: where we left the saying you can't make horse drink ?
mircea_popescu: o but you can.
ThickAsThieves: to say somehting is not absolutely solvable, therefore why imrove it
ThickAsThieves: imprive*
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of power in the conservation instinct.
ThickAsThieves: improve*
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves well... you can't improve it the way you broke it i think.
ThickAsThieves: and you cant solve it by resorting to the lowest common denominator either
asciilifeform: you can make the horse drink. but sometimes the horse is Munchausen's horse: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/munch/cruik4.gif
ThickAsThieves: not solve // improve
mircea_popescu: the problem kids face, especially while small, is that they have no clue. that's why they're in school, to figure shit out.
mircea_popescu: you can't expect them to self-motivate. if they had enough of a clue as to what's what they wouldn't need school.
ThickAsThieves: yes, and we can do a better job helping them to do so
jurov: punishment works if kids know what they are punished for
mircea_popescu: there's nothing to help. all you can do is "learn this!" as an absolute imperative.
jurov: but who'll bother explaining to them?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they're in school to figure out hierarchy/obedience.
ThickAsThieves: we cant make an increasingly complex society without taking responsibility for ushering people into it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform these two are not distinct.
ThickAsThieves: well, we shouldnt
kakobrekla: ;;ticker --last
gribble: 133.01000
ThickAsThieves: 133, heh
mircea_popescu: as it should be.
ThickAsThieves: admittedly i'm a bit more of an idealist, evolutionist
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 5 @ 0.2975 = 1.4875 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.29769999 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.29789999 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 4 @ 0.29809999 = 1.1924 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 3 @ 0.29829997 = 0.8949 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.29849997 = 0.597 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.29969999 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.29989 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.2999 = 0.5998 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: but explain this to me. kid's nine. he should be learning multiplication table. how does that get done ?
ThickAsThieves: i do think we can steer our path
mircea_popescu: he has no way to know why it's useful.
mircea_popescu: what now ?
ThickAsThieves: good example
ThickAsThieves: use a more applied way of schooling
ThickAsThieves: that was my problem
mircea_popescu: age honored way is to go "either you learn this or i mash you into a pulp"
ThickAsThieves: i learn by doing
ThickAsThieves: not by being told
mircea_popescu: this has had kids know multiplication for ~2500 years.
Uglux: huuuge dump
mircea_popescu: the recent method of i dunno wtf it is... has kids... not able to multiply.
ThickAsThieves: i remember i had this huge mental block learning geometry
MJR_: yeah, that makes sense...kids (and many other people in society) won't understand why things are necesssary....that's why you say because i told you so
ThickAsThieves: yet i got a job that involved it and took to it quickly
mircea_popescu: MJR_ for that matter, people keep going "o, i dunno what good a philosophy degree would be IRL"
jurov: parents heavily involved... and i knew it is useful
mircea_popescu: and i usually go "ya douchy, i own you in any way and you dunno what my degree is for. wd."
asciilifeform: the kid is taught the times table to see if he is trainable. as witnessed by the fact that the times table continued to be taught, even in times and places where the people running the show don't give a damn whether anyone actually knows their times table.
jurov: if they just threatened to pulp me if i don't learn... then i;m not sure i'd really learn
mircea_popescu: jurov not as a theory.
jurov: some other things i knew i did not need, i did not learn
mircea_popescu: in practice. you get as many lashes as you can take.
jurov: no matter whet. and just got bad grades
Scrat: ;;goxlag
gribble: MtGox lag is 50.300903 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.100802446415 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin ten times between Saturn and Titan (0.0802 AU).
mircea_popescu: not bad grades dood.
mircea_popescu: pain until you faint
ThickAsThieves: lol
mircea_popescu: cold water, rehash.
mircea_popescu: at some point you either beg to be allowed to learn it
mircea_popescu: or just die.
MJR_: eh, you learn if you want to learn
mircea_popescu: either way, we pre-dig the graves.
MJR_: grim
mircea_popescu: indeed.
asciilifeform: times table and lashes plus a real person = educated, functional; times table and lashes plus a meat pupper: expert at dodging punishment.
ThickAsThieves: mp your approach is simply too primitive for me
asciilifeform: *puppet
ThickAsThieves: i can rationalize it n all
mircea_popescu: there's this VERY grim undercurrent in education people never wish to face.
ThickAsThieves: but cmon
mircea_popescu: education in fact has death in it.
jurov: then i'll be unlearning obedience not 15 years, but 30 if ever
ThickAsThieves: life has death in it
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves yeah.
mircea_popescu: jurov shockingly obedience is very easy to unlearn if you're trained properly
mircea_popescu: (ie, no excuses are ever made)
asciilifeform: "with an ugh and a groan and a click of the heels, death comes quiet or it comes with squeals..."
ThickAsThieves: everything we do could be called a big distraction from self-awareness of our own mortality
jurov: mircea_popescu: do tell, and how many of teachers/parents can actually do it properly?
mircea_popescu: virtually none.
mircea_popescu: i don't propose this as a practical solution, mind.
MJR_: i learn without threat
jurov: you don't seem to have any other solution
MJR_: i learn for incentives
MJR_: and i would say i learn more and faster
ThickAsThieves: i enoy learning on my own terms
mircea_popescu: jurov im just saying, this is the way things'd work absolutely. that it's not implementable... not my problem :D
jurov: fkn hipster... not his prob
mircea_popescu: ehehehe
MJR_: well, take 3 steps back...is learning necessary? not always
mircea_popescu: it's never necessary. it's always useful.
MJR_: if it is necessary, there are two paths
ThickAsThieves: yes but you maintain that money cannot be used to improve the overall education level of the US, no?
MJR_: one is disincentive for not learning...punishment
mircea_popescu: but in poihnt of fact you can always survive w/o knowing shit.
MJR_: the other is incentive for learning, reward
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves my idea was that the reason us edsucation is fucked atm is exactly the misuse of money.
mircea_popescu: adding more won't credibly help.
MJR_: ^i'd agree
MJR_: its cultural...and hopefully changing for the better
mircea_popescu: heh. notrly.
MJR_: when people say that asians are good at math...its cuz their parents make them good at math
MJR_: they do not have the choice to NOT be good at math
mircea_popescu: kids learn from whoever they respect. in the 1850s that was the teacher.
mircea_popescu: by now it's some gang leader guy, with the charisma and the requisite qualities.
mircea_popescu: MJR_ azns get the stick. a lot.
ThickAsThieves: thats two diff problems
ThickAsThieves: how we spend money and what to spend it on
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves the unions have a great idea on the subject.
ThickAsThieves: yes we waste shit tons of cash
ThickAsThieves: our priorities are all fucked up
mircea_popescu: notice that you pose false questions. the us govt has absolutely no choice on who and what to spend.
ThickAsThieves: the people within it have power to steer the cash
mircea_popescu: it's a "rational agent", ie, like water : can be dammed, can be piped...
MJR_: yes
mircea_popescu: will sit patiently in a glass waiting
MJR_: but my point is, if you "say" you value education but don't, you won't get education
MJR_: if you actually value education, you will get education
MJR_: if your children are in school on saturdays for 8 hours...you value education
mircea_popescu: ya but the problem is there's no way to value education w/o the markings on your ass.
MJR_: yes i agree
MJR_: even if just metaphorically
mircea_popescu: even if.
ThickAsThieves: i didnt need to get beat to value learning
punkman: saturday school? fuck that
MJR_: hehehe, yep
mircea_popescu: problem is, cultures which have this ethos don't need the pathos
MJR_: exactly
mircea_popescu: but americans are disused. they will need to re-learn the hard way
MJR_: exactly
mircea_popescu: so their grandkids might not need actual whippings
MJR_: that is the point
MJR_: you want education, you have to value education
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves well i thouight we're discussing statistics.
MJR_: but when parents basically have the attitude of 'not my problem' or "just play along till you get out of school"
MJR_: that is not valuing education
mircea_popescu: indeed.
MJR_: that is paying lip service to education
MJR_: wanting the benefits without the actual work
MJR_: nowadays you go to school so you can say you went to school
ThickAsThieves: i'm not discussing stats, nor last resorts
MJR_: quite tautological
MJR_: i am educated because i got education
mircea_popescu: very weak society, one that wants the benefit but doesn't enjoy the labour.
ThickAsThieves: i'm saying we need to at least figure out how to figure out improving education
MJR_: point is, you have to learn because you want to know
MJR_: and you want to DO
MJR_: not because you want others to give you credit for having attended a school and paying tuition
ThickAsThieves: as a species we are capable of absolutely anything, it's just a matter of when we decide to do so
MJR_: its the biggest example of the free rider problem ever
MJR_: think of it this way, if schools produce education, i can go to one, and rely on the fact that i will be assumed to be educated
MJR_: without actually learning
MJR_: so if you take focus away from what school you went to etc, and on WHAT YOU ACTUALLY KNOW
punkman: well assumptions don't last long when you actually have to go to work
MJR_: that is a good first step
asciilifeform: "education" is a seriously abused word in application to the schooling of the masses. The root 'educe' being == 'to bring out.' There isn't usually much to bring out.
mircea_popescu: MJR_ then you're a gypsy racist
MJR_: eh, incompetence is everywhere
asciilifeform: "The world's best magician cannot pull a rabbit out of a hat unless he is already in the hat."
MJR_: i agreer
MJR_: totally
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at the risk of sounding insufficiently misanthropic, i beg to differ.
mircea_popescu: you'd be amazed what an excellent cocksucker sleeps in any random chick.
asciilifeform: time to call it what it is: obedience training. like the dog kind.
MJR_: point is, i want the person at mcdonalds to know the difference between "only lettuce, tomato and ketchup" and "no mustard, onions or pickles"
MJR_: they don't have to be geniuses
MJR_: but they should not be complete retards
MJR_: because that negatively impacts MY quality of life
asciilifeform: MJR_ the solution is pictograms. or ditch the clerk and install robots.
mircea_popescu: i don't think you can safely identify someone that way.
MJR_: this is the non altruistic argument for why education is important for all
mircea_popescu: my cto used to drive a truck for instance.
MJR_: i usually find that i learn the MOST when i have to solve a problem...no problems, no learning
asciilifeform: well yes, and at one point I ran cables. there needs to be an escape hatch, and the process is rather inefficient right now
MJR_: i figured out how to use *nix systems because i didn't have a computer and wanted my iphone to do everything a computer could do
MJR_: so i figured out symbolic links (this was before iOS 1.1) and i figured out filesystems, etc
MJR_: i figured out package management...and all the other things, to get what i wanted
MJR_: just a small example
mircea_popescu: sounds like a beating.
MJR_: i suppose...but now i welcome challenges
MJR_: i only feel happy when i am overcoming something
MJR_: figuring out something
kakobrekla: ;;goxlag
gribble: MtGox lag is 118.574281 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.2376215315 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin between Earth and Venus at their closest approach (0.254 AU).
jurov: typical #assets .. everyone talking about themselves and their beliefs, just mircea about sex
kakobrekla: look, they fixed it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: don't know about you, but I would prefer a system that is up-front about the goal of separating people from meatpuppets, rather than pretending to do a million other inconsequential things
MJR_: ^^agree
mircea_popescu: fu ju rov :D
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't believe that separation is a matter of fact.
mircea_popescu: i've never met actual meat puppets.
MJR_: lol
kakobrekla: jurov my belifs are that is not the case! urlpls mircea
mircea_popescu: http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/src/136667640924.gif
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the "people who must be told how to live"
mircea_popescu: make it last im running out.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this includes most researchers you know ?!
mircea_popescu: fuck, rms needs to be told to take a bath.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.4892 = 1.4676 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: most researchers are meat puppets (with good calculating and recall ability)
mircea_popescu: ya well you sound en route to the party of one
Scrat: can't, the bath is proprietary
mircea_popescu: ahahaha
jurov: lol
mircea_popescu: scrat wins interwebs
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.4251 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 6 @ 0.42500001 = 2.55 BTC [-]
MJR_: hehehe
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 7 @ 0.425 = 2.975 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: I'm more of a "reich der zwei" sort of guy
mircea_popescu: even so.
MJR_: anyway, people either avoid challenges or welcome them, that is a great heuristic for separating out those who will learn and those who will do what they are told
mircea_popescu: i avoid most challenges. what nao ?!
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 7 @ 0.425 = 2.975 BTC [-]
jurov: yeq. i went into bitcoin in hope to avoid some challenges, too :D
asciilifeform: sort of how cats spend most of their time sitting around. efficient predators.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.42 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: with cats its prolly the conspiracy of being cute.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla got a better one for you : http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/src/136685028116.gif
kakobrekla: lol
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 3 @ 0.415 = 1.245 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: "honey... gotta put these in water"
jurov: i see the roses i bought were put to good use
mircea_popescu: lol
MJR_: lol
MJR_: mircea_popescu: avoid challenges that can't be avoided...hard to explain i guess, but some things have to be done, not talking about wasting effort
mircea_popescu: yes. sometimes hard to distinguish from outside.
asciilifeform: rms above is a bad example. he has a "mad hermit" image (external and internal, as well) to maintain.
mircea_popescu: tbh i think he's just mildly retarded.
asciilifeform: his unbathed carcass and rags are as important as an actress's manicure.
asciilifeform: even if he's a natural.
kakobrekla: ;;goxlag
gribble: MtGox lag is 2.923985 seconds. During this time, light travels 0.00585963320143 AU. You could have sent a bitcoin from Jupiter to its largest moon, Ganymede (0.007155 AU).
mircea_popescu: dude everything's a conspiracy with you.
jborkl: oh lol 134
jborkl: 131
asciilifeform: more like "prospiracy" (things that happen a certain way, because it actually makes sense, but having the appearance of purpose.)
mircea_popescu: jborkl there was a dude earlier telling me my article is out of date
mircea_popescu: rather than updating the article i updated the price
jborkl: oh my people running at the door screaming
jborkl: good call on that