assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00075923 = 12.1477 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1262 @ 0.00075924 = 0.9582 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10457 @ 0.000763 = 7.9787 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00076342 = 7.6342 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14250 @ 0.00076508 = 10.9024 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11600 @ 0.00076655 = 8.892 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00076844 = 7.6844 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.6799 = 1.3598 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00076944 = 8.8486 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P350T] 650 @ 0.2674139 = 173.819 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 27.06923527 / 42.61596516 / 44.80704907 (no shares, 12,332.19 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.19001, Best ask: 34.24800, Bid-ask spread: 0.05799, Last trade: 34.24800, 24 hour volume: 40994.03888350, 24 hour low: 33.15000, 24 hour high: 34.88000, 24 hour vwap: 33.96591
Bugpowder: I just wonder how much of the tracking of it to BTC price is due to the MPOE bot's algorithm vs. true market sentiment
Bugpowder: there is, of course, a limit to how far a put or call imbalance can push the OIX
Bugpowder: also, have you examined its predictive power?
mircea_popescu: actually, there was a point where the oix was pushed to like 90
Bugpowder: whatever you call the option market making bot
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder i think miodterm. i think it was on an otherwise empty book someone buying some weird far out call
Bugpowder: like at this time horizion out, even a 100-0 call put ratio can only push the OIX so high dependent on the call price
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 100 @ 0.0064 = 0.64 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: Is the OIX the like CO2? A trailing indicator?
mod6: ahh, its in the vwap now :)
Bugpowder: you, or someone (or me) should look at it's predictive power
Bugpowder: is there historical option trade data available?
mircea_popescu: tell you what, if you promise to write a good statistical analysis and publish it i'll send you the ~300 datapoints on that graph
Bugpowder: Let me consult with my statistical wizard friend
jurov: to me it looks more just glorified call/put sold ratio
Bugpowder: of course if there IS predictive power
jurov: because most of calls have same breakeven point, puts likewise
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder the thing is, my bet is that there is predictive power of arbitrary precision for contiguous subsets
mircea_popescu: it'd only be fair in the fucked sense that term takes in any natural science/
jurov: i found them being +- 1BTC
mircea_popescu: draw the graph if you will, it's a symetrical butterfly.
jurov: so,i remember wrong again.. maybe i considered just narrower range
mircea_popescu: O.BTCUSD.C290T = 0.32626257 ; O.BTCUSD.C590T = 0.06210314
mircea_popescu: there's a very speciffic=looking graph of the options breakeven points if you calc them all out
gribble: 1 BTC = 34.06157 U.S. dollars = 26.1649793 Euros
mircea_popescu: looking at it roughly : A totally took a bite of concrete, B sort of predicted something, but muchkly exaggerated.
gribble: 1 BTC = 34.02000 U.S. dollars = 26.1330466 Euros
Bugpowder: A lot of the option purchases occur when there is a large divergence between realtime spot price and 24hprc
Bugpowder: in which case, we might be able to say (the spot price predicts future 24hprc)
Bugpowder: as filtered through options purchases.
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.10101, Best ask: 34.20462, Bid-ask spread: 0.10361, Last trade: 34.02000, 24 hour volume: 40252.89496290, 24 hour low: 33.15000, 24 hour high: 34.88000, 24 hour vwap: 33.95090
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 500 @ 0.00073 = 0.365 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: the difference is small, yet i just sold 80% of the month's book
Bugpowder: that big option buy today is the exception that proves the rule
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 3 @ 0.67 = 2.01 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: many times it was the case that large buys didn't match the theory
mircea_popescu: moreover, there was a huge differential for days till yest
mircea_popescu: well it was a good theory, but i don't think it meets the data so far
Bugpowder: well MY options purchases occur during divergence periods
mircea_popescu: but sometimes you made and sometimes you lost on that strategy
mircea_popescu: so in short i doubt the short term anything but weakly predicts the vwap
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.BBET-PT] 94 @ 0.002125 = 0.1998 BTC [+]
gribble: 1 BTC = 34.12900 U.S. dollars = 26.2167768 Euros
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7549 @ 0.00077 = 5.8127 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: love getting SMS from localbitcoins.com
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7382 @ 0.00077 = 5.6841 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 6 @ 1.6 = 9.6 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: just waiting for coins to go up a bit more...
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 20 @ 0.674 = 13.48 BTC [+]
jurov: i'm just engrossed deep into taming mktdepth data to be used in google spreadsheet
jurov: since namworld failed in that
jurov: or he just exhausted all time in making pretty background, dunno
Anduck: remove 30btc fee and make it point + click
Anduck: and preferable drag&drop too
jurov: also, existing coinbr users may want to put their referral link there... but i may as well keep these 0.2% to myself :P
Bugpowder: I liked the previous one 100,000,000% more
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 110 @ 0.00610825 = 0.6719 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 500 @ 0.00610824 = 3.0541 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.00610823 = 0.6108 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1747 @ 0.00601401 = 10.5065 BTC [-]
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 34.00501, Best ask: 34.12401, Bid-ask spread: 0.11900, Last trade: 34.12401, 24 hour volume: 37039.65816349, 24 hour low: 33.15000, 24 hour high: 34.80800, 24 hour vwap: 33.87769
mircea_popescu: anyway, off to play path of exile with my all-female clan. bbiab.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00073887 = 11.8219 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5554 @ 0.00073886 = 4.1036 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 96 @ 0.00073315 = 0.0704 BTC [-]
jurov: fuck, i forgot to run monthly fee :D
Bugpowde_: Wonder how much time he spent on that
thestringpuller: You are my favorite scientist atm. Bill Nye ain't got nuttin on you.
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P510T] 85 @ 0.71002991 = 60.3525 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P490T] 225 @ 0.64837795 = 145.885 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P470T] 450 @ 0.58814383 = 264.6647 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P450T] 675 @ 0.52952177 = 357.4272 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P430T] 815 @ 0.47272814 = 385.2734 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P410T] 680 @ 0.41800212 = 284.2414 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P390T] 445 @ 0.36560587 = 162.6946 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P370T] 295 @ 0.31582454 = 93.1682 BTC
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P350T] 105 @ 0.26896955 = 28.2418 BTC [+]
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg] [--currency XXX]) -- Return pretty-printed mtgox ticker. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure that the three letter code you enter is a valid currency (1 more message)
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg] [--currency XXX]) -- Return pretty-printed mtgox ticker. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure that the three letter code you enter is a valid currency (1 more message)
assbot: [MPEX:^OIX] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 28.20780706 / 40.92334054 / 44.82313733 (no shares, 14,082.43 BTC), 30D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC)
jurov: if i do split and short sell, that sell is counted in, no?
jurov: it should have no regard where the options come from
jurov: anyway based on my spreadsheet shenanigans, the breakeven point is a bit different from real profitability
jurov: from 44.80704907 -> 44.82313733
jurov: avg is the middle number? ah yes
Bugpowde_: Inhibitor23 reddit comment reeks of mp writing it
Bugpowde_: I never answer questions that end with "discuss"
Bugpowde_: Such a presumption that the question is worth discussion!
TradeFortress: Selling up to 100 ASICMINER shares, pm me with offers.
jurov: TradeFortress ask topace he's doing pt
thestringpuller: "mircea, if you were half as smart as you think you are, you wouldn't confuse coinbase and coinlab. you'd also have invented antigravity and a time machine, but that's beside the point." - whatcha have to say about that mr. popescu?
gribble: Error: "id" is not a valid command.
thestringpuller: jurov: is my account just inactive? I don't have to register and blah blah blah aain no?
jurov: you don't have to do anything. but it's good to check just in case
denialdenial: i havve a new nick so waht want to fight about it
jurov: i remember paying out s.bvps to someone who has withdrawn everything (perhaps thinking he'll avoid monthly fee which isn't the case)
jurov: ;;dox denialdenial
gribble: Error: "dox" is not a valid command.
jurov: as long as there's anything on your account (even if you have 0 btc), you pay
thestringpuller: congratulations! the first BTC Debt account ever created by moi cause I'm never logging back in if that's the case har har har
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C370T] 24 @ 0.20220992 = 4.853 BTC [-]
jurov: thestringpuller, i went to extra hassle to intimidate poor namworld into paying out
jurov: and this is the result. in the future i'll just terminate the asset without any recompensation >:D
mjr_: thanks for following me :)
jurov: and refer everyone to thestringpuller :D
mjr_: you are bets of bitcoins right?
mjr_: thought that was a nickname for bbet
jurov: thestringpuller, srsly. so you want to wipe the acct completely?
mjr_: yes, i see they are two different sites now
mjr_: hey jurov, sorry i am negative, should i liquidate a position or can we wait for s.dice dividends?
mjr_: i thought they would be in by now
jurov: they will be anytime till March 5
mjr_: k, if that is too long i can liquidate mpoe
mjr_: or i will just fund some more
TradeFortress: prehaps it's because S.DICE wants bigger dividends this month so they're delaying it until the 5th
mjr_: yeah, i'll fund some more, should be in by tomorrow morning, hopefully i can scoop up some more s.dice too lol
mjr_: TradeFortress: pretty sure they will just cut it off at the 28th and the rest goes toward next month
mjr_: i know that whole group is on a trip at the moment
mjr_: but from what i saw on a forum post, it seems they had a good month
mircea_popescu: <jurov> if i do split and short sell, that sell is counted in, no? << no. bot's sales only.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller : that's nice, my antigrav unit is humming quietly in the basement. now what ?
mircea_popescu: <TradeFortress> prehaps it's because S.DICE wants bigger dividends this month so they're delaying it until the 5th << that's not how it works, divs are for feb
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 38 @ 0.006296 = 0.2392 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: EDIT: I found a formula which is almost correct for WEIGHT > 3000, it is:
mircea_popescu: Reward = TOTAL * 0.99 * MY_BET * SQRT(LOG(WEIGHT))*WEIGHT^(1/6.0) / Sum_all(winning_bets * SQRT(LOG(WEIGHT))*WEIGHT^(1/6.0))
mircea_popescu: "This is awesome! I didn't even know such an exchange existed."
jurov: maybe that dude ran critticall over bbet data
mjr_: lol, this is the best irc channel ever
mjr_: someone should really make a tv show about bitcoin...the drama lol
mjr_: note to self: start writing pilot based on bitcoins
mjr_: pilot episode for people to watch and decide to buy a season
mjr_: not that i have ever done that
mjr_: but hey how hard can it be right lol
mjr_: maybe go straight to netflix or something
jurov: i recommend it to involve satoshi building it all only for him be able to raise money for clay mugs workshop and troll around
mjr_: you know what they say...
mjr_: the man who does what he loves never works a day in his ligfe
mircea_popescu: but srsly, the funny life of this guy who lives with like, 5 chicks.
mjr_: if anyone wants to see a really crappy website, feel free to check out btcshares.com
mjr_: its basically just a placeholder
jurov: and judging from the photos, never wear hair
mjr_: except for all the copying and pasting
mjr_: that is the service i provide
mjr_: a place to donate bitcoins to me
mjr_: which is extremely annoying to me
mjr_: like i said, placeholder
mjr_: i worked on all the backend stuff today
mjr_: tomorrow i try to do design stuff
jurov: data-address="1LokQrHj14NU93tC6pZfTZyyRHhAVakQmX"
mjr_: but i set up twitter, email, admin stuff...and got the website online
jurov: i stole ya address
mircea_popescu: TradeFortress just jabbing at you re your forum encounter
mjr_: oh for the donate button?
mjr_: yeah, well, i included that only to try it out
mjr_: and cuz i wanted to get the btcshares label for an address
mjr_: although maybe i will try to get a vanity address
mjr_: i made that site in under an hour just to test switching domain stuff and getting dns in order
mjr_: like 5 min might be more accurate as far as design and aesthetics
mjr_: i plan on just hosting my performance and financials there
mjr_: i am not as of yhet
mjr_: how do you establish trust though?
mjr_: i am not going to trade at all
mjr_: i just use exchanges
mjr_: oh, i am getting $ clients
mjr_: people who know about bitcoins probbably can figure it out for themselves
mjr_: but old people with cash can't
jurov: mjr_ if you use coinbr you can ask me to look up. i'll then rate you like "-10 did not pay coinbr monthly fee"
mjr_: although to be fair i paid most of it so far
mircea_popescu: mjr_ lisrten, that's half of the story. what do you do with the bitcoins ?
mircea_popescu: so suppose one day you loan some shares out to someone
mjr_: hopefully lend them
BitHub: i currently do this for older or newb people as well
mjr_: and i will probably eventually need a seat on mpex
BitHub: i charge a 10% helpers fee
mjr_: i also have a mining operation getting under way
mjr_: but not little puny ones
mjr_: hoping for 10GH per card
BitHub: make sure you try ordering from BFL labs today
mjr_: start with 3 cards...not the best, but still half an avalon almost
mjr_: way larger than spartans or altera's
mjr_: hoping for 10gh per
mjr_: maybe overly optimistic
mircea_popescu: but if used and a good price i guess may be a good deal
mjr_: free and sitting around
jurov: mjr_ there's sometimes a good deal on -otc too, i got amazon codes, small paypal payments and like
mjr_: 3 of those, plus maybe one virtex 5 if worth it
mircea_popescu: he has a point. also, you'd think i'd never trade. yet recently i got like a dozen sa gift certs.
mjr_: anyways, i have 3 small projects and one big one
jurov: the bitch ain't one
mjr_: the fpga miners, the boutique hedge fund, and a bitcoin horseracing sitte
mjr_: the big one...is big
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 6 @ 0.3 = 1.8 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ;;everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:651ee0e4570cc2d14ea53173c276c5bce82d794a92202d3779ffbf90
gribble: You are now authenticated for user mircea_popescu with key 8A736F0E2FB7B452
mircea_popescu: ;;rate kakobrekla 5 too much stuff to list. inquire within.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating for user kakobrekla has changed from 3 to 5.
gribble: You rated user nefario on Tue Sep 25 02:55:21 2012, giving him a rating of -1, and supplied these additional notes: runs a scammy btc securities exchange . associated with the bitcoin consultancy scammer group..
gribble: You rated user davout on Sat Dec 8 05:09:24 2012, giving him a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: bitcoin-central.net paymium etc.
jurov: mjr_ do you know about glbse? he was its owner
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating for user davout has changed from 1 to 3.
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 180 @ 0.006296 = 1.1333 BTC [-]
mjr_: asicminer is from there right?
mjr_: just starting to get everything back together from what i read
mjr_: mircea do you ever use btc-e?
mjr_: or anyone else for that matter...
jurov: mjr_ only for small litecoin trades
gribble: You rated user jurov on Fri Sep 28 03:13:37 2012, giving him a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: runs coinbr.com, MPEx broker website.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating for user jurov has changed from 3 to 4.
mjr_: lol nice $17 spread
mjr_: i switched to dollars
mjr_: oh i get what you mean
mjr_: very small dollar volume
mjr_: ah yeah, their euro book is a lot better
mjr_: well yeah, but better than dollar for sure
mircea_popescu: but they seem to me more trustworthy than anyone else on the strength of actually getting the bank partnerships right
mjr_: well, i hope to change that
mjr_: working on an aggregated order book...and then hopefully a routing and matching engine
mjr_: that is the big thing
mjr_: hoping to get a big source of volume soon
mjr_: open up a new market
mjr_: and need to provide a steady access to all markets to convince them
mjr_: that is basically what my company already does for equity markets in US
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 20 @ 0.00996 = 0.1992 BTC [-]
mjr_: buy from this dark pool, sell on that one
mjr_: so if someone would just do that for btc it would make everyone's lives a lot easier
mircea_popescu: you can probably handle it on otc if you know the rifght people
mircea_popescu: which is what makes your wot suddenly crucial for your success.
assbot: [BTCTC] [B.YABMC] 7 @ 0.008299 = 0.0581 BTC [-]
mjr_: well, its all about automating it
mjr_: well, my partner is working on the order flow
mjr_: and we already have some sick back end infrastructure
mjr_: data center colocation etc
mjr_: and some really nice enterprise level matching engine and algorithmic trading unit
mjr_: can i work on it tomorrow?
mjr_: if you guys are around?
jurov: tomorrow is sunday, we're closed
mjr_: i mean, what address should i use?
mjr_: should i maintain a separate one for business and personal?
jurov: mjr_ i think most of us have one common address/privkey
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 15 @ 0.66 = 9.9 BTC [-]
jurov: and it isn't clear to me why/how would you want to manage separate webs of trust
mjr_: i mean as long as i run my business it would be important for me to have a high wot rating
mjr_: but if i were to leave...i couldn't leave it to someone else
BitHub: is your business pandering hard to the community or mainstream?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11129 @ 0.0007449 = 8.29 BTC [+]
BitHub: then i wouldn't worry about WOT so much
mjr_: well, still important
mjr_: even from marketing perspective
BitHub: mainstream have no clue about it
mjr_: but you know how people list stuff on websites
mjr_: and i may need to do stuff using otc
mjr_: but would rather my corporate persona was the one who had the trust
mjr_: i don't plan on doing a lot personally
BitHub: don't get caught up in a rating war tho
BitHub: could be damaging to business rep
mjr_: like i said, i haven't used otc yet
mjr_: and maybe i might toy with it
mjr_: but i want computers to deal with stuff like that
jurov: we'll see how it goes. dunno if there was anyone who maintained corporate persona on wot
mjr_: the matching engine and such
mjr_: yeah, i kind of like how it is very personal here
BitHub: better off having a customer feedback thing on your site or osmething
BitHub: quotes from mainstream professionals
mjr_: well, as i said, my goal is to be a layer between a big mainstream source and a bunch of exchanges
BitHub: "wow this site is really good" Mark Cuban
mjr_: ideally the mainstream end users wouldn't even be aware of me
BitHub: +1 yeah we had a good trade - BitHub
mjr_: there are some companies that have 20-30k accounts
mjr_: and all those guys do is trade forex
mjr_: but they would need a STRONG source of liquidity
mjr_: and the best bids and asks
BitHub: BitHub is currently building infrastructure, investing and networking within the Bitcoin community and the Mainstream to bridge the two together to provide a very straight forward, trustworthy, professional services.
mjr_: and enterprise level hardware with some big financial people behind it
mjr_: yeah that is the goal right
mjr_: i have been disheartened by how hard it is for people on wall street to get in the game
mjr_: traders at my firm have half a mill to play with at work
BitHub: isn't it about to get alot easier for them
mjr_: yeah...believe it when i see it
BitHub: or tell your wall street buddies to buy into a bitcoin company
mjr_: not to mention...it would just be a mt gox pass through
mjr_: they don't own their positions
mjr_: and they trade with high leverage
BitHub: that's where you come in my friend as a Bitcoin Broker and you do it for these people and charge them a broker fee
mjr_: they couldn't invest outside of work
mjr_: but they can't press buttons to make bitcoins appear on their screens
BitHub: outsource some helpers from china
mjr_: and till someone makes it so that you can use etrade (def not what we use) or like a sterling or laser type platform
BitHub: they don't need to, they just go to your site, type in a code or whatever and can see their balance
mjr_: professional traders can't get involved
mjr_: i mean, their accounts with their money can't connect to my website
mjr_: and it isn't really their website
mjr_: they get to trade with 20x or more leverage
BitHub: cant you set up your own bank account and get these people to dump the fiat in there?
mjr_: but they leave all that at the office
BitHub: and then you make the bitcoin buys for them?
mjr_: basically they have to use their trading accounts
mjr_: and their trading accounts connect to nyse, nasdaq, edgea, edgex, bats etc
mjr_: so they can buy stuff from there
jurov: mjr_ have you seen bit4x.com or 1broker.com ?
mjr_: and that is how most of finance is
BitHub: so you need a bitcoin platform that can kind of plug into that exisiting platform?
BitHub: because they're using their coporate trading accounts
mjr_: i need them to be able to plug in bloomberg
BitHub: which is like really big money
mjr_: if they open up their own accounts it might be 500
mjr_: their professional accounts might be over 1 mill
mjr_: traders don't do it at home
mjr_: but again typically with their 401k or their investment account
mjr_: the goal for me is to not make them open up a new account
BitHub: hmmm follow the coinlab stuff
mjr_: but rather give them something to buy with their existing accounts
BitHub: maybe you can act as a broker for them via that site
BitHub: so they only have to deal with you
mjr_: too long; didn't read: wall street professionals don't open up new accounts for all their trades, they use their existing high margin accounts
mjr_: that's the goal for the platform, plug into existing infrastructure
mjr_: and become the gateway for that infrastructure to the bitcoin world
BitHub: but the exisiting infrastructure its not like you could plug gox right into it yeah?
BitHub: there's alot of licences, government approval wallstreet approval etc etc
Ukto: BitHub: I wouldtn btoher with coinlab
mjr_: but it is mostly a matter of getting the deal
Ukto: there will be other options for gox
Ukto: before their thing hits
Ukto: trust me on this. ;)
mjr_: my point is that everyone doesn't use nasdaq to trade aapl
BitHub: we talked about it yesterday
mjr_: even though aapl is listed on nasdaq
mjr_: i can buy aapl on any one of a ton of differrent venues
mjr_: and they all have different fees, volume, prices
mjr_: so i can pick and choose
mjr_: so someone has to offer choices and volume
mjr_: its a long tough road i think
mjr_: which is why i am more excited abvout my small easy projects
mjr_: which are already coming together
mjr_: when i showed a trader what i was doing, he was like "why aren't you scalping this all day, like do it right now"
BitHub: so i dont understand the problem
BitHub: why they cant buy bitcoins using their coporate accounts
mjr_: of course they have no way of sending an electronic order
mjr_: so let's say they call me
mjr_: because they trust me
BitHub: or do an order via your site
BitHub: if you had a live chat option like i do
mjr_: and say hey, i wanna get 1000 btc right now, what kind of price am i looking at?
mjr_: let's assume i actually had the market data to tell them
mjr_: looking at all the exchanges and finding the best price
BitHub: it would probably just be based on mtgox price
mjr_: ok, well, i have to wire the money out of my account, and then i have to wire you the money
mjr_: ok see you in 5 days then
BitHub: you cant float it for him?
mjr_: but not at that amount
mjr_: and not in any way that would make me money
mjr_: the point is to be able to use the existing accounts so i don't hve to worry about their funding
BitHub: start with 1000 dollar limit maybe
mjr_: since funding is always the worst part of bitcoin trading
mjr_: mt. gox...10+ days to verify using dwolla
BitHub: let me tell you a secret
BitHub: i buy outside of mtgox and its always cheaper than the current market price at that time
mjr_: and again, they just did a trade with their own money and it didn't really relate to their job at all
mjr_: but speed is the key here
mjr_: and also, your P&L will show your account
mjr_: not what you do with some person outside of the system
mjr_: ie. you want to have this be a trade done as part of their profession, not as a side job or something
BitHub: you need direct relationships with miners
mjr_: that is the synergy with the fpga project i have going on
BitHub: or set up a seperate branch to your company that's strickly a bitcoin mining company
mjr_: if i can get the equivalent of half an avalon
mjr_: it'll be a nice little start
mjr_: but suffice it to say
BitHub: and you can start writing off equipment and electricity against your bitcoin mining company
mjr_: lol, no cost equipment or electricity
mjr_: what i am planning on doing
mjr_: and what we are working on
mjr_: is a symbol on a platform where people already trade dollars, euros, pounds and yen
mjr_: so now it is dollars, euros, pounds yen and bitcoins
mjr_: ie. i don't have to worry abourt your funding, or settlement, i just worry about executing orders against the bitcoin exchanges
mjr_: and collecting fees
mjr_: their forex company, who has said they are interested, would take care of the accounts, but they would offer one more symbol for their traders
BitHub: so you're actually working on software?
mjr_: we have a top tier software system in place
mjr_: my boss at my day job called it "a ferrari on a dirt road" lol
BitHub: sounds good and a bit crazy what you're doing, keep my updated :)
mjr_: yeah, but it basically would have like a matching engine so say account #25671 wants to buy and account #12543 wants to sell, it can match them internally, saving us the fees from mt. gox or wherever
mjr_: that is internalization
mjr_: with 30k accounts...we can prob do quite a bit of internalization
mjr_: and with volume, we can lower our rates at gox, and cut better deals with others
BitHub: just you know whatever you do, don't let those guys ruin bitcoin hey?
mjr_: i want them to see this as an introduction
mjr_: so they start using it in everyday life
mjr_: AND, if it works, get interviewed on CNBC
mjr_: my little boutique tiny hedge fund will post some amazing gains
mjr_: well...not sure, we got the software and the servers and the location
mjr_: my partner/boss is meeting with those guys for our company (day job) but also selling them on this idea (our own side thing)
mjr_: so, if our deal goes through
BitHub: yeah of course heh nyc exchange
mjr_: it is fairly reasonable odds that this other thing goes through
mjr_: providing we can deliver a stable good source of liquidity to them
mjr_: so i am mostly working on that right now
mjr_: i think its probably 50/50 at best that it'd done in a year
mjr_: depends, i am not exactly sure what the demand would be
BitHub: i'm still a startup myself trying to figure this stuff out, based in Australia / Asia check us out sometime - bithub.asia bithub.com.au bithub.biz
mjr_: but ideally, they could move large amounts of money relatively quickly and without too much slippage
mjr_: i'm definitely hoping to partner with people in some way or another in the future
mjr_: if they can provide access to markets
mjr_: i would really like to work with bitfloor since they are NYC based, but i would like to have routes everywhere
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 6 @ 0.3 = 1.8 BTC [+]
mjr_: also i could hopefully leave orders on bitfloors books to get liquidity rebates
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 250 @ 0.006296 = 1.574 BTC [-]
BitHub: btw does anyone have any of those ASICMINER shares?
jurov: here someone was offering just few hrs ago
jurov: <TradeFortress> Selling up to 100 ASICMINER shares, pm me with offers.
mjr_: actually talked to him too
mjr_: i would love to pick up some
mjr_: lol whats funny is that that company is more like a private equity thing than public company
mjr_: people always making back room deals and stuff
BitHub: mjr i'm all about partnering up and collaboration if you want help or access to australian/asian markets in the future, lets hook it up :)
mjr_: good talking to you all
mjr_: best channel on IRC bar none
mircea_popescu: jurov for my curiosity, the guy on reddit that "couldn't waiot" till another nonfee exchange opened
jurov: maybe, he did not let me know
mircea_popescu: twitter "Why do the same people that say A baby in the womb is not life Say bacteria is considered "life" on Mars?"
mircea_popescu: me "Because there's plenty of wombs and scarcely any bacteria on Mars. Abundance cheapens."
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 2 @ 0.3 = 0.6 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 24 @ 0.00643 = 0.1543 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 1 @ 0.34 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1000 @ 0.00580008 = 5.8001 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 500 @ 0.00580007 = 2.9 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 500 @ 0.00580006 = 2.9 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 38 @ 0.00580004 = 0.2204 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 500 @ 0.00580004 = 2.9 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2000 @ 0.00580002 = 11.6 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 5000 @ 0.00580002 = 29.0001 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2000 @ 0.00577614 = 11.5523 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2000 @ 0.00569655 = 11.3931 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1000 @ 0.00550002 = 5.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 50 @ 0.0055 = 0.275 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: maybe that ian baked got some shares to sell
Ukto: kakobrekla: he wants a large price :)
Ukto: was very high is what I was told
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00077011 = 7.7011 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 500 @ 0.00077012 = 0.3851 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 400 @ 0.0055 = 2.2 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1900 @ 0.00076144 = 1.4467 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.0055 = 0.55 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2000 @ 0.00500051 = 10.001 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 23879 @ 0.0050005 = 119.4069 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 600 @ 0.0055 = 3.3 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.0055 = 0.55 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 16121 @ 0.0050005 = 80.6131 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 300 @ 0.00500002 = 1.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 400 @ 0.00500001 = 2 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 40000 @ 0.0050005 = 200.02 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1000 @ 0.00500002 = 5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX:S.DICE] 1D: 0.00500001 / 0.00529899 / 0.0063777 (116945 shares, 619.69 BTC), 7D: 0.00500001 / 0.00595337 / 0.0063799 (353812 shares, 2,106.38 BTC), 30D: 0.0042 / 0.0060038 / 0.007395 (6898878 shares, 41,419.50 BTC)
Bugpowder: Even with no whale, I think S.DICE is worth .005
kakobrekla: at least mpex is not closed on the weekend, right pizzaman1337 ;)
pizzaman1337: is that what percentage the dividend will be if the price is at 5?
Bugpowder: I also believe that the whale lives
Bugpowder: with a different address allocation strategy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.00500001 = 0.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1900 @ 0.00500001 = 9.5 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: someone really wants to dump a big load
mircea_popescu: ya seems like someone putting in a wall at 50 would prolly get a good chunk
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "How you gonna choke a legend ? You don't think I want to choke people ? You can't just choke all your problems, it takes hard work. If I had my way, I'd never work. I could stay home all day watch Scarface 50 times, eat a turkey sandwich and have sex all fuckin day. Then I'd dress up like a clown and surprise kids at schools. Then I'd take a dump in the back of a movie theater and just wait til s
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 4 @ 0.66 = 2.64 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: I'm gonna be sad if he drops to .004
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4537 @ 0.00077012 = 3.494 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5963 @ 0.00077014 = 4.5923 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.00500001 = 0.5 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: quick someone by the fucking x.idiff.mar
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1900 @ 0.00500001 = 9.5 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: it has one retarget till then, and it's not going up 200%
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.6431 BTC [-]
gribble: Next difficulty estimate | 4555697.65506 based on data since last change | 4400318.08082 based on data for last three days
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.00500001 = 0.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1900 @ 0.00500001 = 9.5 BTC [-]
gribble: Error: "nextdiff" is not a valid command.
kakobrekla: well maybe he is going to lose patience
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.643 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.642001 = 1.284 BTC [-]
pizzaman1337: let's have some fun, I put 1 S.DICE buy on the book... maybe he'll take it :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1 @ 0.00500001 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 99 @ 0.00500001 = 0.495 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1 @ 0.00500001 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 900 @ 0.00500001 = 4.5 BTC [-]
gribble: Current Blocks: 223988 | Current Difficulty: 4367876.000842196 | Next Difficulty At Block: 225791 | Next Difficulty In: 1803 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 0 hours, 28 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 4550550.25106 | Estimated Percent Change: 4.18222
mircea_popescu: i wonder if like 20 years from now when s.dice is like better than microsoft
Bugpowder: 500,000 shadow S.DICE shares being sold at .005
pizzaman1337: nobody is keeping track of trades, are they? Besides on twitter
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.00500001 = 0.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 400 @ 0.00500001 = 2 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.00500001 = 0.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 900 @ 0.00500001 = 4.5 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: that cocksucker leaves 100 shares there
kakobrekla: i wanted to get mine hit and cancel it
kakobrekla: somebody placed it after me and mine leftover was hit
pizzaman1337: I wonder if the seller is in this room, watching amused
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 400 @ 0.005 = 2 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1 @ 0.00499999 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1 @ 0.00599993 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: scalpin the mpex spread with 1sd share
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1 @ 0.0048 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1 @ 0.00599994 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: except keep the proceeds for buying ho's skimpy outfits
pizzaman1337: you need to distribute those outfits among shareholders
mircea_popescu: that's a thought, somebody trying to cause a panic to load up
Bugpowder: I dumped my dice when I figured out no whale
Bugpowder: I bought some back when I found another network of 10,000+ coins
pigeons: it probably is him cause the other 500001's were me and this one isnt
mircea_popescu: law here is you can use receipts for deductions if < 100 lei per.
mircea_popescu: so i told the waitress to split up my bill accordingly.
pigeons: i figured i'll buy at that price and take the div
Bugpowder: 69 is a restricted number on california license plates
Bugpowder: I learned this today when checking custom plates
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 100 @ 0.00550001 = 0.55 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: he seems awefully well informed for not being on irc
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder pretty much the only guy with a clue outside of irc
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 1 @ 0.00996 BTC [-]
runeks: Bugpowder: yes, I was going to get H8RSGNH8, but there's a 7 character limit
runeks: mircea_popescu: I bet that wouldn't be allowed. I mean if they ban 69...
runeks: mircea_popescu: dunno. I'm just guessing.
swhitt: there was some dude that had CUN7 or something in west virginia
swhitt: crazy west virginians.
runeks: it's always west virginians
mircea_popescu: there should be a law all virginians must be named Ian
swhitt: Ian doesn't sound very west virginian
mircea_popescu: anyway, what's the big deal, some dork has CUNT on his license plate. so who cares.
mircea_popescu: "yes officer, i saw it, was a pink and green 1971 pontiac with CUNT license plates"
swhitt: it's america so everyone without anything else to do decides they have to care
swhitt: and start a crusade against it
mircea_popescu: women that don't get fucked often enough and raw enough get bored
swhitt: you'd do wonderfully in american politics :)
swhitt: probably'd get ~50% of the vote
swhitt: blame it on the hanging chad
swhitt: anyone have any bets on whom one should bet ~$20k on for asic hardware (actual hardware, not shares)?
swhitt: foregoing the fact that it is still a gamble at this point
swhitt: I have a cilent or two who are interested
runeks: If I had $20k to invest in Bitcoin it wouldn't go to any ASIC company
swhitt: runeks: yeah, I said "buy bitcoin, throw some at SDICE but keep most of it in BTC"
runeks: swhitt: I think that's good advice.
swhitt: but they are interested in hashing etc.
runeks: swhitt: what do you mean? are they interested in making money or supporting the network?
swhitt: what's ltcbtc fx rate now
swhitt: the guy's loaded and wants to geek out
swhitt: plus the prospect of making money makes it more fun I guess
swhitt: 1 ltc is only 0.0024 via btc-e now...
runeks: I have a hard time believing BFL will deliver within the next two months. but on the other hand Avalon won't either, probably (for new customers). so it doesn't look too good.
mod6: that was an awesome hockey game
mod6: missed the s.dice sale 'eh
swhitt: when is the march dividend out?
swhitt: i thought it was supposed to be today.
pigeons: complete and accurate Statements of Profit and Loss for each calendar month will be published by them no later than by the fifth day of the new month.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.642 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 8 @ 0.64 = 5.12 BTC [-]
Bowjob: i cant seem to access my coins
Bowjob: When I double click on the .exe, it doesn't start
Bowjob: I'm redownloading electrum to see whats up
mod6: did you try rebooting
Bowjob: I have the seed so I'm good
mircea_popescu: "Electrum is an easy to use Bitcoin client. It protects you from losing coins"
mod6: does the process show up in the running executables list?
Bowjob: funny, I re downloaded it, doesnt open up
mod6: what if you try to execute it from the command line, what happens?
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-TRADING-PT] 1 @ 0.0919 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3713 @ 0.00076397 = 2.8366 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 787 @ 0.00076396 = 0.6012 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: “I really have no idea how money works or budgets work.”
Zedster: do you always pat yourself on the back?
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 500 @ 0.00073 = 0.365 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 5 @ 0.349 = 1.745 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-TRADING-PT] 3 @ 0.0919 = 0.2757 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [LTC-MINING] 1 @ 0.398 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 2 @ 0.00999 = 0.02 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 2 @ 0.00999 = 0.02 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 16 @ 0.00999 = 0.1598 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: last saturday john wells had no idea bitcoin even exists. this saturday he's asking his guests cogent questions about it.
mjr_: lol what up everyone
mjr_: this is too funny, every month you have people running away from s.dice's money
mjr_: quick guys they are about to pay us, sell sell sell
Bugpwoder: In a mature, efficient market, the stock price generally drops by the amount of the dividend upon dividend payout. Last two months, this anticipated drop did not occur with S.DICE.
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 2 @ 0.349 = 0.698 BTC [+]
mjr_: in fact it drops right BEFORE dividends
Zedster: anyone aware of BTC-e having problems taking deposits?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 17 @ 1.56 = 26.52 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: lottoBTC read chan rules and obey them, if you wish to stay.
kakobrekla: you can also pay me 1337 btc and ill leave you alone
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 100 @ 0.00591 = 0.591 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 85 @ 0.0059 = 0.5015 BTC [-]
topace_: anyone know when the sdice dividend is going ot be paid?
Eduard_Munteanu: Weird, I remember there was a list of exchanges in the topic, where is it?
mjr_: should be by tuesday the 5th i think
Eduard_Munteanu: kakobrekla: does bit4x provide a web interface for trading? I'm on Linux.
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 5 @ 0.29 = 1.45 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: Eduard_Munteanu, no, you need to use MT4, you can use it in virtual machine
kakobrekla: google says its possible but i havent tested how well it works under wine
mjr_: does MT4 have an API?
kakobrekla: you can code your stuff there with MQL
mjr_: i'm working on plugging different exchanges into a smart order router/virtual crossing engine
mjr_: i'm installing it now, to play around with it, looks like a cool piece of software
mjr_: looks like a really cool app, who do you set up an account with exactly?
kakobrekla: i open live accounts in btc denomination
jurov: aka siren-maintained corporate identity xD
jurov: lol, looks even better with these rounded corners
Eduard_Munteanu: Hm, what other broker is there for MPEx, other than nam's?
dub: gah what happened to rule 1 of -assets
jurov: there are also options and futures
jurov: but were not so often trade to make this type of graph usable
Eduard_Munteanu: Hm, I suppose I can't see a list of assets until I deposit some BTCs?
jurov: yes, new order screen is accessible only after initial deposit
jurov: but it's the same list as mpex.co
error4733: F*** the bast*** playing less than 2000 on SDICE... 2x 15 BTC to 955 BTC
Zedster: mirc won't let me list my touring polka band
Eduard_Munteanu: Why are those options so cheap? E.g. strike price 19USD/BTC, valued at 0.566 BTC.
Zedster: every 5 mins and nothing else?
gribble: 1 BTC = 34.24860 U.S. dollars = 26.3086496 Euros
dub: Is it racist of me to ignore SebastianJu purely because I can't parse his linglinglish
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.DICE-PT] 150 @ 0.006 = 0.9 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 150 @ 0.0059 = 0.885 BTC [-]
jurov: Zedster, try btct for the polka band
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7000 @ 0.00077843 = 5.449 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 2 @ 0.349 = 0.698 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 1 @ 0.000745 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 30 @ 0.00076 = 0.0228 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 20 @ 0.00077 = 0.0154 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 20 @ 0.00078 = 0.0156 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 40 @ 0.00079 = 0.0316 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [S.MPOE-PT] 278 @ 0.00079 = 0.2196 BTC [+]
dub: heh just got expense report for a week long road trip with 5 friends last month
dub: more of a historic pub crawl, wine tour and whiskey binge
assbot: [BTCTC] [RSM] 1 @ 0.00505 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [RSM] 70 @ 0.00504 = 0.3528 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 1 @ 0.0059 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: finally about to break out of this channel
Zedster: bugs gotta do whats bugs gotta do
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 4 @ 0.6745 = 2.698 BTC [+]
dub: comment win: Occams Taser 3 minutes ago Now try building yourself a girlfriend...
gribble: 1 BTC = 34.34800 U.S. dollars = 26.3850054 Euros
dub: Diablo-D3: beserker punch doom style
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1000 @ 0.00550004 = 5.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 700 @ 0.00550003 = 3.85 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 700 @ 0.0055 = 3.85 BTC [-]
jurov: pre-divs sale goes on
Diablo-D3: dub: the only thing I remember from doom is the fucking lobster claw
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 6 @ 0.00999 = 0.0599 BTC [+]
dub: I wish I was a little bit shorter, wish I wasnt a baller, wish I had a girl who looked bad, I wouldnt call her?
dub: wish I had usagi in a hat with a bat and a '84 skoda
dub: the fuck is going on
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1150 @ 0.00076889 = 0.8842 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21495 @ 0.00077069 = 16.566 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 500 @ 0.0055001 = 2.7501 BTC [+]
gribble: Next difficulty estimate | 4663223.55823 based on data since last change | 4470188.64953 based on data for last three days
jurov: iDiff-E selling for 6.1 now for beliebers ;)
jurov: *no, it's iDiff-O March
gribble: 1 BTC = 34.36999 U.S. dollars = 26.4018974 Euros
Ukto: First backed asicminer shares trading live
dub: strangely that word (as much as it is worth) doesn't appear in the profile