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mircea_popescu: can be as long and lettery as you want. still a hail mary string of no actual practical benefit.

trinque: it will until you hit a boundary and say "openssl" or "tinyscheme"

mircea_popescu: exactly how "search" is "a problem solved for all time", but when grep got implemented they... cheated it.

asciilifeform: i believe that it is possible to actually solve a problem in a permanent way.

trinque: it is a fucking lie; the category within which you're enumerating symbols is not delimited by file

asciilifeform: a tool for reusing timeless pieces.

mircea_popescu: a reliable tool to lie to management.

asciilifeform: trinque: #include <name> is bullshit. #include <HASH> is a reliable tool.

mircea_popescu: i personally never got the idea it's part of trb or anything. seemed to me more like a "alf's other project", sort of like the ffz thing.

asciilifeform: phf: it was specifically labeled as a dangerous toy. for the reason you described.

trinque: question wasn't (I thought) how V works, it's whether #include is a useful tool or a festering fucking sore

phf: asciilifeform: i understand that but you're missing what i'm saying. you yourself said that you're not particularly trusting tinyscheme. it has overflow bugs, it has all kinds of issues, and keeping its apartness insulates ~you~ from a certain amount of responsibility. it's no longer serving a purpose as part of a bigger trb patch, now it's this third party "pedigree" thing, that we can sort of rely on, but nobody's responsible for etc.

asciilifeform: you can't specify a 'all of asciilifeform's works' as a v-antecedent !

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wouldja think for a minute. if he trusts your key, to get stuff included up to X, he trusts your key, so ends up with stuff included past X also.

asciilifeform: is a total enumeration.

trinque: the include moves concepts from one place to another without enumerating them. it's in that sense a lie by omission

asciilifeform: reread must be a deliberate, conscious act, not 'hail mary'

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not in the slightest. you ever read a novel TWICE only to discover that hey, i hadsn't gotten it the first time ?

mircea_popescu: stick to one project at a time, you'll be happy enough that way.

mircea_popescu: you want to use a piece of code in your project, YOU REBASE IT.

asciilifeform: which, if strong, makes it safe in ANY case to '#include' a HASH

mircea_popescu: mno. ffz, a project you are working on now, has its own genesis. IT WILL BE REBASED in any possible tree where it appears.

asciilifeform: it uses nothing previously existing, and will be a genesis in any possible tree where it appears.

mircea_popescu: why'd someone make a new 0 diff patch instead of signing yours ?

asciilifeform: it is worth the mention when somebody else steals precisely same thing (because it was, say, hamlet) and stands a patch on ~it~

asciilifeform: but it is not outside. the signed pedigreed tarball is a vtronic creation (in the respective cases, mine and mircea_popescu 's)

mircea_popescu: there may not exist any sort of pedigree, even as a notion, other than from one of our genesis.

asciilifeform: and makes whole thing into a 'trust me plox'

mircea_popescu: it still has to either a) chain off an existing element or b) not be part of the story.

trinque: mircea_popescu │ the problems only begin when trinque goes on a jwz rampage "i only wanted the offspring to sprout, not rob the store". << I agree 100% that offspring are in any sane scenario mine to end

asciilifeform: as would be the case in a mircea_popescuated shiva trb.

asciilifeform: thing is, operator doesn't specifically start from anything. he specifies a press head (if that. in one variant contemplated earlier by mircea_popescu, one does not even specify press head, but instead walk longest chain having sigs S1...Sn)

mircea_popescu: mod6 : if you're building trb, you start from a trb genesis. if you're building V (via V), you start from a V genesis. and so on.

asciilifeform: mod6: per my v, that and only that is what a 'genesis' is.

mod6: in way that asciilifeform lays it out, in the sense that this vpatch would start from 'false' and end on 'SOME_HASH' and create a file(s)|directory(ies) that did not previously exist, then yes a 'genesis' but only on concept - not in name. as we shouldn't not confuse the two imho.

mircea_popescu: the problems only begin when trinque goes on a jwz rampage "i only wanted the offspring to sprout, not rob the store".

mircea_popescu: mod6 it'd be a new genesis yeah.

mircea_popescu: there's a difference between "can not be cut apart" and "sometimes you get a hankering for bareback ; so you make sure the bitch's on the pill"

mod6: so maybe, everyone's call, including yours for a 'v-genesis' vpatch had me thrown that it should be a 'genesis' and not a simple vpatch to what currently already exists out there.

trinque has had a few beers, so let me be specific

asciilifeform: note, elementarily it finds its way back to the genesis (or dies trying) and there is never any need to ~specify~ a genesis or the like.

mod6: don't worry about that. paint me a picture on how you might go about the task - how and where does t.pl go? or v.pl ?

mod6: this would sit adjacent to the 'bitcoin' directory? (just trying to get a visual in my head here)

mod6: so what would your implementation look like here? a patch to a current leaf of the trb patches that inflates say t/t.pl from 'false' on the end of the trb 'light-code' ?

gribble: Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command.

mod6: so we are agreed then that things outside of the trb light-cone, get its own light-cone - a multiverse of things, yeah?

mircea_popescu: there is not nor should there be such a rthing as "dual headed".

mircea_popescu: actually : a v build that, upon pressing genesis, includes 1-of-2 is ipso facto broken.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the sense that it fails to attack to the tree it is very broken. i have no idea why a v build would even include it.

mircea_popescu: yeah ; well iirc that was a broken early experimental attempt by you ?

mircea_popescu: "a genesis" makes no sense ; vpatches with no antecendents are merely that - vpatches with no antecedents. the genesis is the first item.

asciilifeform: a genesis is simply a vpatch with no antecedents.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i don't see why a genesis with hash H has to be 'meta'-limited to only be antecedentable as 'part of project P'

mod6: let's say that i have this project called `t'. and I'd like to make it readily availble and a genesis for this specific tool.

mod6: let's paint a picture.

mircea_popescu: i didn't realise he saw this as a mistake either!

mod6: im fine with this too -- alf sees this as a mistake. so just thought I'd take a minute to address the alternative. unless there is something that I haven't considered? asciilifeform? suggestions?

mircea_popescu: that solves everything. and a different project will necessary have a diff genesis, so separated.

mircea_popescu: now, why not put its work product in a directory named for the genesis employed ?

mircea_popescu: yeah but i'm totally lost as to what you're saying. looky : v works by starting with a genesis. correct ?

mod6: mircea_popescu: well, i think it's a better, cleaner practice.

mod6: one inflates the trb universe into bitcoin, the other into v. i guess it doesn't have to be that way.. v-genesis could be added later on down the line as a leaf node. but then it probably shouldn't be named "genesis" as that seems to break the convention.

asciilifeform: hey that's lowball figure - a start.

a111: Logged on 2016-02-08 20:09 ascii_butugychag: i will half-seriously suggest that we refer to the ~set of patches, seals, keys~ that a particular vtron is aware of at his particular point in spacetime, as... his lightcone

mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "cannonical", but there is a "total patch universe".

asciilifeform: n a letter to Mr. Obama, Mr. Scott sought two forms of federal aid: “provision of health and safety measures,” as well as “management, control and reduction of immediate threats to public health and safety.” An emergency declaration would give Florida up to $5 million in initial federal funding.'

asciilifeform: 'Gov. Rick Scott of Florida said on Monday that he had asked Mr. Obama to issue a federal emergency declaration for his state. “Yesterday’s terror attack was an attack on our state and entire nation,” Mr. Scott said in a statement. “This morning, I have asked President Obama to declare an emergency so that the full resources of the federal government can be made available for all those impacted by this horrific massacre.” I

asciilifeform: 'When asked during the news conference if there was a chance that people might have been struck by friendly fire or in the crossfire, Chief Mina said: “I will say that is all part of the investigation. But I will say when our SWAT officers, about eight or nine officers, opened fire, their backdrop was a concrete wall. And they were being fired upon, so that is all part of the investigation.”'

asciilifeform: if we duplicate shithub, it will be a loss.

a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 23:43 mod6: Which also means, it almost makes no sense to even publish the v-genesis.vpatch that I currently have as it is no use to anyone if they can't grab a canonical version from the mirror. All they'd be able to do is get it from the mailing list, with the seal, and drop it into their local working directory as one would expect.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-13#1481822 << mircea_popescu made a very convincing argument in favour of ~not~ having a central repo of any kind, but rather - if anything - a streamlined mechanism for each lord (including mod6 & ben_vulpes under the banner of trb foundation) to put ~his own trb~ in usable format on ~his own~ www ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 00:48 mircea_popescu: hey asciilifeform got a link to where you made the point in the log that most of what sane people do consists of cleaving the practical from the metaphysical or such ?

phf: i rarely have an inclination to bring rifle to burn like events, and the kind of events that allow rifles are a bit too beer&jesus for my taste. or whatever jesus substitute they do dawkins science.

phf: i think that's a pretty common transition

ben_vulpes: my multiple-week-summer-vacation is now to a house on the sound side of vancouver island where we play music extremely loudly eat all sorts of interesting things and motor about on each others motorthingers

phf: in any case portland to nevada looks like a great drive, i think i'm going to do a purely recreational drive from colorado or wyoming

ben_vulpes: just looks like a decommissioned avis bus with a platform on top during the rainy parts of the year

phf: but yeah i don't imagine any of that stuff is reusable after a burn

phf: i've been building with the same master carpenter so we usually start with a pile of wood, pile lag bolts and dodgy plans from various artist friends, so speed and malleability are prime considerations

ben_vulpes: i learned on the mutant vehicles before doing any pyreworks, so have a built-in preference for reusable steel stuffs

phf: but ultimately cuts my build time. there's only so many days you can spend building a wood structure in 50 degree direct sun desert hit

phf: well, since it sounds like we're both talking from burn build experience, some people get impact drills and some don't. if i overtorque i just put a second one next to it. it's not pretty, but it ensures that bunch of drugged out hippies can do somersaults on the thing

ben_vulpes: pff if you're a girl

phf: pfft put a second bolt next to first one :D

ben_vulpes: phf: naw i mean like overtorquing and wallowing out a destructive fastener hole.

ben_vulpes: one does not haul a thing to the playa unfurled.

ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: perhaps, but my pyres held numerous people and were assemblableable by noobs on drugs with a minimum of oversight.

ben_vulpes: vibration drops your axial friction, and to a degree your planar friction.

ben_vulpes: useful when you have a nut on the far side. the hammer helps to overcome static friction on the bolt/nut planes, thereby letting you twist the bolt a little further.

BingoBoingo: Seriously though who the fuck decided to use loctite to secure a wear item

phf: basically that rapid torgue will help where you need torgue (like with a stuck bit), but hinder where you need precision, like if the end started running you'll scrape whatever

phf: another. it's definitely harder to make a precise hole with an impact driver too.

phf: BingoBoingo: i think there are cases where impact driver applies, like if your bit gets stuck in metal, and you want to power through it, but like others said, don't drill metal with general bits. i've used impact driver on large wood builds and it's a joy to use, the torgue makes for a very rapid but controlled coupling. i think i might've grabbed one to do drilling in a pinch, but i wouldn't say i noticed much difference one way or

trinque: when you sit down to take a shit, but there's no paper, that's ISIS!

mircea_popescu: hey asciilifeform got a link to where you made the point in the log that most of what sane people do consists of cleaving the practical from the metaphysical or such ? ☟︎

mod6: arg. what a long day. can't believe it's already the thirteenth

mod6: %a t F "Add Long Notes Feature" "Implement functionality so that users of T can create notes longer than 300 chars if necessary."

mod6: %a t S "Update tb0t with Long Notes" "After the implementation of the Long Notes feature, roll out new version of tb0t."

mod6: %a v T "Publish V-Genesis" "Publish V-Genesis post 99994 release." 1