log☇︎
85900+ entries in 0.05s
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly tangentially, have you ever been tempted to distribute eulora as a physical device ?
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with that.
asciilifeform: 'explain' is muchly the wrongest possible word
asciilifeform: how the fuck do i even say обосновать in engl
mircea_popescu: the correct reaction re explanations is ~that the subject aspiring move inside the walls~, nothing else.
asciilifeform: speaking of 'explain' in ~your head~, not to hypothetical heathens
mircea_popescu: nor will there ever be.
mircea_popescu: there's no need to explain anything to anyone outside these here walls.
asciilifeform: sorta why asciilifeform pushed ave1 to cut down the gnat libs.
asciilifeform: reproducible bins are The Right Thing, but it is impossible to explain ~why~ outside of the context of hand-auditability.
mircea_popescu: and also, consider : eulora client is ~definitionally~ for all comers. these people won't run your toolchain anyway.
diana_coman is going to think some more on this
mircea_popescu: and the correct pill re understanding is to cut the examples out once and for all!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the correct pill re 'dynamic' is simply to cut the dynamic loader nonsense out of cuntoo once and for all.
mircea_popescu: ~something to talk about~. it can be many things, and most not even contemplable at the onset.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman note that "binary identity" is not even necessary a premise. you can go "hey shithead, why the fuck are you linking dynamic mysql when there's been a static one for five years". or w/e. ☟︎
asciilifeform: the other pertinent fact is that we don't have 'eternal' bins until we have a pinned-down kernel, and the latter requires pinned-down iron.
mircea_popescu: i didn't make this world ; i'm just trying to live in it.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
diana_coman: well, if he releases for windows, who the fuck see can't reproduce
mircea_popescu: which, i'm told, is the true basis of all happy marriages.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman you see the code he deeded and see can't reproduce. so now you two have something to talk about
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but i ~didn't propose that~ in 2016, either, did i.
diana_coman: yes, but how do you even know that the binary he releases is really the code he deeded?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well because say mocky does the release. ima frown if his release sucks, and he doesn't want that ; and his toolchain is to be expected better than literally rando camwhore's, "i dunno how kleopatra works". neh ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that so far, at least as visible from my tower, i've succeeded in this. whereas if i had distributed the whole kit in february of 2016, to kako et al, chances are that wouldn't.
phf: (my logotron has not been that way since the fateful burning man of 2 years ago, now "maintenance" involves adapting to changing landscape of e.g. freenode, etc.)
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, how do we "control binaries" though?
asciilifeform: it is specifically ~not~ meant to be modified and used as building block by folx who aren't asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: the other pertinent distinction is that phuctor is not meant as a building block to use inside other systems. pretty much whole rationale for asciilifeform's refusal to publish whole thing, is specifically to prevent/delay such attempts at use.
mircea_popescu: but even that aside, i still don't see wtf is wrong with "we'll produce sane binaries instead of waiting for whatever shit-kit rando luser has to spit out whatever it does".
asciilifeform: aha, with the steam valves.
mircea_popescu: this is no sort of life, incidentally. it's what the old "engineering" used to be, "construct complicated looms that are friable and hard to maintain so as to have an eat."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i suspect the folx who stole phuctor v.1 and v.2 src discovered, and prolly not much surprise to anybody else, phuctor is not a fully automatic mechanism. it requires asciilifeform's hands , applied on fairly regular basis, to function correctly. sorta like phf's logtron, for instance.
mircea_popescu: yet somehow ~there~ you see why this is not much of a concern.
mircea_popescu: for all you know, BingoBoingo hooked up the kvm while you slept and mod6 read your postgres code and is still laughing.
mircea_popescu: nevermind "shed some light". the point fucking remains, as long as secrets are kept secrets are kept, what the fuck.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: earlier in this thread i did shed some light re why.
mircea_popescu: and no, you've not published phuctor, nor liked the idea. shall i quote you or can you quote yourself ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because of the human element involved.
trinque: process might be to have l1 build, gossip about the hashes of build they produced, at which point who cares who built, that's the item
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if 'who leak to, goats?' then why spend even a penny on effort to pass around srcballs 'in confidence' ?
trinque: and then asked ave1 for binary-reproducible gcc as the logical next step
mircea_popescu: that's why i'm not fucking concerned of "l1 leaks". who the fuck are they going to leak TO ? the goats ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but these cotemplated here are built under control, of the only human invoplved in the relationship!
trinque had the cuntoo builder set aside bins for exactly this reason
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you not see a diff b/w bins that were built under your control, and those where not ?
mircea_popescu: "sure, ima totally take 88 hours to emerge world, AGAIN"
mircea_popescu: nobody does this ; you don't either.
mircea_popescu: i have to fucking compile every thing the 9000th time, i can't just put binary images on my 9001th rockchip ?! ☟︎
mircea_popescu: why the fuck not ?
trinque: meanwhile there may be place for a solution better than "go use satan's gcc / gentoo livecd / etc to bootstrap
asciilifeform: trinque: i fully expect that when we finally get the hell off c , there'll be no moar of 'distributing bootstrap bins'
trinque: the open problems are facts of life today
asciilifeform: trinque: this is to be seen as ~open problem~, not 'fact of life'
asciilifeform: the sad folx in microshit-land feel this on their skins ~daily
asciilifeform: sure, but i gotta point out that the proposed win from distributing bins, is illusory.
mircea_popescu: we're not in the business of guarantee.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot' ☟︎
mircea_popescu: they too are someone's children, you know.
mircea_popescu: do you not care about the machines AT ALL ?!
asciilifeform: for all i know, somewhere there exists a d00d who tried to build e.g. trb on a vax. and thinks asciilifeform is idjit, because it dun go. how's that skin off my back.
mircea_popescu: situation 2, as contemplated : you release a binary, which mp like an idiot runs, and that's that. the machine no longer has cause to think alf's an idiot.
mircea_popescu: dude. situation 1, as currently : you release code, mp like an idiot compiles it on ubuntu, jnow your code exists as a drepper mockery of itself. as far as the machine can tell, you asciilifeform are an idiot.
asciilifeform: what is gained from having there exist a drepperized systemd thing ? or what am i missing
mircea_popescu: so then ? is this not a gain ?
mircea_popescu: but i mean... lookit, the author will make a static binary ; and who the fuck is going to make a drepper systemd thing ?
mircea_popescu: now, do you dispute that it permits control of the released binaries ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: 3. very clearly quashes the idiocy of rms-ism AND ers-ism ("open source" bla bla), and makes the strong political statement that indeed there is a difference between nose breathers and mouthbreathers and so on.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: this release paradigm has the advantages that 1. permits us to control binaries, which means stuff like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834888 (which i'm very much impressed with, btw) ; 2. permits to reserve some interest for the author, because the strategic thinking over at minigame is that we'll want client competition (from skinning all the way to all the way) and remuneration by installs (hence all that hash dance in
asciilifeform: if you dun care for the metaphor -- there's the old and continuing promisetronics discussion.
mircea_popescu: well... there are engines that work by soaking. moreover what is this, metaphore exercise hour ?
asciilifeform: crypto is a thing; secrecy has a place, like lubrication oil; but you wouldn't build engine that relies on being soaked in oil at all times, errywhere, steering wheel , pedals and seats included
mircea_popescu: this much is true.
asciilifeform: organizations that try to keep long-lived secrets, inside groups with changing membership, are more or less the star clowns in the heathen circus.
asciilifeform: relatively compact -- and, more importantly -- short-lived -- seekrits -- are practical. e.g. i send BingoBoingo a qntra item, gpggrammed so as not to get scooped by heathens. next hour it gets published openly.
mircea_popescu: but we've done l1 releases in the past, neh ?
asciilifeform: i'm struggling and failing to come up with a scenario where it doesn't ultimately land you in the same hot pot of ridiculous boiling oil as usg boils in.
mircea_popescu: but the "keep magic coad from heathens" is your contribution to this discussion!
asciilifeform: not the same item at all as 'keep the magic coad from heathens' is it.
mircea_popescu: like i dunno, don't up all idiots so they shiot the log. thart's not a confidence ?
asciilifeform: even if the arithmetic is on the surface transitive.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is possible to have confidence with individual people , but imho a mistake to operate on same model with group.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform really ?! we have all sorts of things in confidence i thought!
asciilifeform: the illusion that something given to, e.g., 7 people, is reliably in confidence . the next kako or whoever, releases the seekrit at a time of his choosing, for maximum damage, and you get to run around making faces like usg
diana_coman: asciilifeform, as I understand it, this is first and foremost a political statement; the gains are not from "oooh, you don't know my ugly code"
mircea_popescu: but what is the illusion ?
mircea_popescu: how is the described process cost anything ? i dun get it. because deedbot ends up storing tons of loc ?
asciilifeform: i don't specifically know how mircea_popescu proposes to limit distribution of src . but , say, l1-ciphered encyclicals would count
mircea_popescu: are you talking to what i'm saying or to what some other guy mighv'e said that was also an idiot ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it gained whatever cost was saved by not screwing around with encrypted downloads or whatever other futile attempts to make water unwet
mircea_popescu: well it can't, server is the heart of things.
asciilifeform: did e.g. 'blizzard' take it and make own fraudulent pseudo-eulora ?
asciilifeform: let's rephrase the q -- to date , eulora published client src ; what did it lose thereby ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't take my meaning.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman that part is coincidental ; it just happened that the first candidate for testing this paradigm happened to be owned by minigame.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, q really is why l1 ? basically what does l1 have to do with eulora directly?
mircea_popescu: that's how you fuck women, yes ? they keep secrets and the verifying is impossible ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure . but what does it then mean to ask someone to keep a secret, if even verifying the keeping of the promise is impossible ( much less 'enforce' ) ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a) there's no practical possibilty for collective answerable ; b) as discussed in previous thread (when you were trying to make up contest rules), it's not possible to prove the owner himself didn't leak.