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ben_vulpes: "you're not a c programmer, you're a gcc programmer"

a111: Logged on 2016-10-03 15:33 asciilifeform: think 'old version.' if there existed a medieval gcc, i'd at least consider it.

asciilifeform: now ~how much retardation to create himself~ is often within his control, and sometimes he can manage a 0

asciilifeform: thing is, 'right way to do things' is not in practice available to engineer, who always and ~without exception labours inside a cage made of his predecessors' retardation.

mircea_popescu: there's a fucking right way to do things, and this arbitrary "i shall now be a becoming actress" ain't it.

asciilifeform: c ) get on a boat and MAYBE come back 20 yrs later.

asciilifeform: then menu is a) turnip b) dirt.

mircea_popescu: hey, you just wrote a c complier for addition above! :D

asciilifeform: to our grief, it is very very easy to write a (sad, inefficient, but working) c compiler.

mircea_popescu: so it's more of a fashion / kink high consensus thing than a real matter.

asciilifeform: point earlier was, the 'c is THE close-to-the-metal language' is a half-truth

mircea_popescu: (a demand for tobacco powered by europe's elite aiming to protect itself from diseases through smoke permitted richmond to be a thing.)

mircea_popescu: i suppose the solution everyone uses is to declare a special class made of arbitrary length bitfields and define procedures on it such as these.

asciilifeform: you get a carry bit set to 1, and [edi] is 0x557799ba .

asciilifeform: ( we are on a 32-bit box in this example ) and we add 0x12345678AABBCCDD , a 64-bit int, to another 64-bit int, to get a 128-bit result.

mircea_popescu: i spent 100s of engineer-hours fixing the idiocy of "int" not being 64 bit ; it's a disaster for human productivity directly comparable to the black death.

asciilifeform: ^ this is a personal hatred of asciilifeform's, when dealing with bignumatrons

asciilifeform: from comments, '...there are many processor features that are not directly available in C even though they are available in a wide variety of processors (the overflow flag is a prime example). A similar situation that comes to my mind now is that 32bit*32bit multiplication results in a 32-bit integer in C even though most processors yield a 64-bit result...'

asciilifeform: 'make a copy' and put it WHERE ??

mircea_popescu: because YOU MAKE A COPY and compare with it.

asciilifeform: e.g., 'Pointer arithmetic. In the good old times, an int and a pointer used to have the same size. People happily used ints as array indices. Array indexing is just pointer arithmetic, and in some architectures (like x86), you can often perform the pointer arithmetic plus load in a single instruction. Then came 64-bit architectures. For reasons I don't really get (compatibility?), on x86-64 and other 64-bit architectures ints remaine

mircea_popescu: no you don't understand, "Software, lingüística, mitologia nórdica e rock'n'roll". a true renaiswitter man.

mircea_popescu: you ever saw a "this should not be in c because it's stupid" in the past 30 or so years ?

mircea_popescu: i thought it was like the romanian language, a subjective superset of all languages.

mircea_popescu: i suppose a machete esp in the rula style as seen there is a very credible cavalry sword.

mod6: <+mircea_popescu> it's actually a very fine machete. hecho en colombia. << Very cool.

mircea_popescu: it's actually a very fine machete. hecho en colombia.

shinohai: I can't make it out, looked very close to a dried bovine penis for all I can tell.

mircea_popescu: it may be illustrative to point out at this juncture that well over half of player time in eulora is spent with the character superimposed on a very pike like thing.

asciilifeform: (who is actually king vlad himself, posting via a time wormhole)

mircea_popescu: alrigh alright, you're not a hater, you're just a strange lover.

asciilifeform: think 'old version.' if there existed a medieval gcc, i'd at least consider it. ☟︎

trinque: I have no idea whether ccl is a good idea (tm) (r)

phf: hmm, fair question, but i don't remember, i can't remember if tab even indents to the right place, i'll check in a bit

phf: fwiw they had a graphical editor going back to mit cadr, and it flashes and highlights

asciilifeform: phf: interlisp had a graphical 'structure editor', i have never used it, and now i wonder if the {} thing was slightly less braindamaged given the context of having it.

asciilifeform: (in linked example, we get a transformation of commonlisp into a language with entirely different syntax and evaluation rules, 'while you wait!111')

asciilifeform: sometimes a localized bit of custom notation is the only reasonably-compact abstraction.

asciilifeform: and also because genera was a product of adults, rather than children, it is a sin specifically of the latter to obsess over very dubious 'optimizations' like 'super-paren {}'

phf: asciilifeform: well, in a sense that it wasn't immediately obvious that read-delimited-list is a fundamental concept

asciilifeform: now i COULD see mapping a key on kbd to 'shit out enough ) to balance'

phf: true, or the fact that simple half a second "match opening paren" is pain, when you're typing )))) in a row

phf: i think it was a thing in vogue at some point, back when fexprs were still in the back of everyones minds

asciilifeform: and it is a braindamaged idea

a111: Logged on 2016-10-03 03:18 asciilifeform: {a {b (1 2} (c d (e f} эквивалентно (a (b (1 2)) (c d (e f)))

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-03#1551486 << was it interlisp or maclisp that let you close multiple parenthesis with a single final one, like (do ((foo 1) (bar 2)) (blah (foo) == (do ((foo 1) (bar 2)) (blah (foo))) ☝︎

asciilifeform: i suspect that when mircea_popescu wakes up he will at least feel temptation to write up a 'modern school of comp sci' thing where 'you must find a paper and asciify it...' etc

asciilifeform: it is a curiously-inverted but still quite medieval situation, today we rescue ~paper~ by turning it into ascii.

PeterL: but it also gave a chance to thouroughly read paper

PeterL: well, I copy/pasted out of pdf, then with bare hands had to fix just about every symbol (and for some reason it lost all the "a"s)

adlai: /= is a [common]-lispism

trinque: guy even sent me a detailed email in response to a query.

mod6: trinque: good! looks to be a busy week.

asciilifeform: 'No FUCKING Windows updates! No VIRUSES! No blue screens. Not even a "Guru Meditation" or 3 bombs... Just a working horse. That's what a computer supposed to be for you.'

asciilifeform: 'This C64C used by a small auto repair shop for balancing driveshafts has been working non-stop for over 25 years! And despite surviving a flood it is still going...'

trinque: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-October/000237.html << seems like the ml eats "Re: " at the front of a message

shinohai: http://archive.is/X4eIQ <<< a poor copycat of http://trilema.com/2016/my-first-bitcoin-or-how-do-i-get-some-satoshi/, 4 of the entires are the exact faucets trilema warns of dicking around with.

asciilifeform: mepian: what i want to make is a ZERO-closed-vendor-turd machine, among other things. and no existing fpga gives you this.

asciilifeform: a subject which i wasted years on.

a111: Logged on 2014-12-11 01:52 asciilifeform: decimation: notice that all known fpga manufacturers (xilinx, altera, lattice, a few others) have the same business model

a111: Logged on 2015-06-17 13:17 asciilifeform: you can pick up a textbook and write a dram controller for fpga from first principles - and it won't work. because, for starters, only a small number of output cells in the chip can function on both rising and falling edge of clock cycle (what 'ddr' means) and only xilinx's closed turd knows where they are in the routing fabric;

a111: Logged on 2016-10-03 13:19 mepian: after reading about the plight of asciilifeform trying to implement a driver for gigabit NIC http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544183 I wonder if rolling your own NIC on FPGA in this fashion https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:19005/FULLTEXT01.pdf would be less insane

PeterL: ^ I converted lamport paper to ascii, took some hand cranking to clean up after the machine gave it a try.

mepian: after reading about the plight of asciilifeform trying to implement a driver for gigabit NIC http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544183 I wonder if rolling your own NIC on FPGA in this fashion https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:19005/FULLTEXT01.pdf would be less insane ☝︎☟︎

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/a-guide-for-torturing-cats-recently-voted-most-likely-to-psychopath-article-on-trilema-by-anonymous-and-otherwise-anodyne-romanian-speaking-derps/ << Trilema - A guide for torturing cats. Recently voted most likely to psychopath article on Trilema by anonymous and otherwise anodyne Romanian speaking derps.

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Choppied that piece up a bit.

mepian: I was reading Trilema for a while and decided to visit you here

deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/10/02/on-the-ultimate-justification-of-the-ethics-of-private-property-by-hans-hermann-hoppe-adnotated-part-4/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - On the Ultimate Justification of the Ethics of Private Property by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, adnotated. Part 4.

mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "Hillary Rodham-Clinton after putting the few remaining working Americans in a basket labelled deplorables during the weekend her legs buckled at Ground Zero, was discovered to have earlier alleged that many young American leftists were basement dwellers." << huh ?

asciilifeform: {a {b (1 2} (c d (e f} эквивалентно (a (b (1 2)) (c d (e f))) ☟︎

asciilifeform: there is also apparently a http://flibusta.is/b/298985 , recent, but i have not read it.

shinohai: Yeah those are definitely fix-a-flat boobs

shinohai: I'm detecting a theme here.

mircea_popescu: ahh, document registration within like an hour, for like a cent. such lovely republic.

asciilifeform: eh we had a couple of'em

mircea_popescu: took a while to find. makes a nice counterpoint for all the 2kb long ones

jurov: https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_crash_systemd_in_one_tweet a chuckle

mircea_popescu: znort987 there's been a bot control code standardization. you prolly want !~ (see also bots.contravex.com )

deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/10/02/on-the-ultimate-justification-of-the-ethics-of-private-property-by-hans-hermann-hoppe-adnotated-part-3/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - On the Ultimate Justification of the Ethics of Private Property by Hans-Hermann Hoppe, adnotated. Part 3.

adlai lazily types up a smoke

shinohai: so naturally it makes sense to pay from a wallet you control, or it does to me anyway

shinohai: But bitpay invoices have a 15 minute window

shinohai: http://archive.is/MoEpk <<< lolzworthy, is complaining because paid a bitpay invoice from a coinbase account and wonders why it didn't arrive.

mircea_popescu: in other news i just produced a 65 item stack trace

shinohai: +adlai cool, i'll see if my tulpas can crowdfund this <<< alice_ might like to have a word with you

mircea_popescu: adlai post an address, i'll send you a coupla hundred so you can buy it and do something useful with yourself.

mircea_popescu: guy writes trading bot, spends half his time explaining how mpex is broken because he's making a living, has to crowfund a probe. nuts.

adlai has been following along, question can be rephrased as "is gizmo appropriate as My First Debugger a la https://www.amazon.com/Plan-Toys-My-First-Camera/dp/B00BJKW8U0 except 'for children aged 18 years and up'"

a111: Logged on 2016-10-02 06:11 adlai: asciilifeform: how much value is there in getting the Gizmo Explorer as a first educational toy in this field, given that I currently have no idea what to do with it other than pilling and whatever else you suggest?

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-02#1551344 << anyone who claims to be doing os or bios dev and does not have this instrument is deaf and blind. but if you aren't into either, then it is just a very threadbare comp. ☝︎

adlai: yeah i'm thinking of getting me a birthday present for the qlc

mircea_popescu: adlai sounds like a lot.

thestringpuller: I'm srsly tempted to pull a Danny Glover in "Good Fences" and burn their house down.

adlai: asciilifeform: how much value is there in getting the Gizmo Explorer as a first educational toy in this field, given that I currently have no idea what to do with it other than pilling and whatever else you suggest? ☟︎

BingoBoingo: I was applying a healthy dose of priviledge to my lawn today and the idea came to me.

mircea_popescu: good for a minilol.

mircea_popescu: and ftr this mentoring session in hardware fucking has been a treat to watch :D

asciilifeform: or that it does not contain subtle lie (this is a problem with every single example extant, including the one linked earlier, they have subtle deviations from what the actual silicon does, we know this from YEARS of thankless sweat by various linux folk)

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-01#1551269 << it is not clear that anyone knows how to do this without simply becoming a toilet for disinfo, with rapidly thinning wallet to boot ☝︎

asciilifeform: i have a gigantic collection of working and nonworking ones