log☇︎
8700+ entries in 0.062s
mp_en_viaje: i do not believe such a thing as ~a~ cannonical copy may exist.
mp_en_viaje: now -- i did not do this because i was bored or lacking for activity. i did it because imo it's very constructive.
asciilifeform: the other side of this, is q of 'what is canonical log' . i.e. is it mp_en_viaje's terminal (runs for 3-4 hrs / d ? and where did not even notice index off, asciilifeform had to notice and ring alarm ) ? asciilifeform's term ? (runs 24/7, but down for maybe 10min / yr ) ? or dulap 's ?
asciilifeform: consider, erry prev. log operator has gone mad. i suspect that know why.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re the log indices, there's a deeper q, that i'd like to lay out and ask mp_en_viaje to actually take halfhr+ to think about, with brain in full throttle, before answering, cuz it is very easy to spec this in such a way that asciilifeform's (or anyone's) pair of hands will not in fact be long enuff or fast enuff to handle
mp_en_viaje: if i really manage to make the damn thing fit in a deck fo cards ima celebrate.
mp_en_viaje: (i suspect diff is because bv silently discards join/part spam, but indexes it)
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i considered also to put 'delta' integer column in the db, specifically for this.
asciilifeform: ( and is why i baked the 'raw export' knob, ideally this is to be semi-automated , i.e. logger operators oughta be able to look, compare to e.g. own local log, and resync if agree )
asciilifeform: this horror aint even rare exception, but as i understand has happened to each logger to date when 1) bot fell 2) folx continued to speak 3) bot stood up . i'd like to devise a deterministic algo for wat-do in such cases, they will repeat for so long as we inhabit fleanode
a111: Logged on 2019-08-14 16:26 mp_en_viaje: i dunno that they're synced
mp_en_viaje: i dunno that they're synced ☟︎
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm still waiting to hear from e.g. ben_vulpes re what he did when bot fell down, to sync the indices with phf's
mp_en_viaje: yes, i want. it will diverge, but wtf can we do.
asciilifeform: well the lines from yest. lobesbot , until when i have the fix tested & deployed.
asciilifeform: bot ate 100% of phf's log in testing phase w/out losing lines. but lobbes in fact discovered uniturds that break py's eater. i'ma implement the fix described by phf , but the q will remain re what, if anyffin, to do re the in-between.
asciilifeform: i'ma not attempt to do anyffin about this unless mp_en_viaje says specifically what ought to.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. mine is behind by -- of last count -- 6 , vs phf's )
snsabot: Logged on 2016-06-19 23:21:04 mircea_popescu: I myself used a Hole Hawg to drill many holes through studs, which it did as a blender chops cabbage. I also used it to cut a few six-inch-diameter holes through an old lath-and-plaster ceiling. I chucked in a new hole saw, went up to the second story, reached down between the newly installed floor joists, and began to cut through the first-floor ceiling below. Where my homeowner's drill had labored and whined
asciilifeform: former -- 'success', a la 'lamp. latter -- 'failure', i guess
asciilifeform: i recall a mp_en_viaje piece where explained which parts of vacuum cleaner are best for this
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 12:08:00 asciilifeform: and in short order you get the lemon market, where 'why should i pay a cent moar, i know i will get exactly same shit as from lolmart no matter how much i pay'
billymg: asciilifeform, mp_en_viaje: incidentally i recently stumbled upon that article myself and shared with pet -- was happy that she both understood it and enjoyed it
mp_en_viaje: nfi if i'll manage to finish it or scrap it, but we see.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, nb article, i had even forgotten it!
billymg: mp_en_viaje: in theory we could write the tools that do what the heathen stack does, but i honestly think, given the intended purpose, it makes more sense to temporarily use them and then discard
asciilifeform: when 'be' was alive, could in fact edit film on (1990s! era) pc ! instead of on dedicated tape decks. as caught on only decade later, when microshit deemed it possible on their i-cant-believe-its-not-os
asciilifeform: here's another somewhat obscure example of the progression. recall in 1990s there were 9000 makers of pocket comps ? the kind could pull out on train and type into. all but 1 such, ended up in thralldom to microshit, and packaged (in rom!) winblowz 'ce', abominable liquishit, but somehow '100% market dominant'. the 1 holdout was a brit outfit, 'psion' . i have 1 here in torture room, it has better responsiveness than most pc ! the re
mp_en_viaje: billymg, i guess im stuck doing this, huh.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, btw, nice footer. i wonder how useful the random shooter will turn out
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:28:54 mp_en_viaje: linux-server-database-scriptglue. that's what it's gonna be. call them what you will, but try and remember : buying "alternatives" doesn't make you alternative. i buy rope from the rope store and server from the apache store because i don't wanna pay 5x for shittier rope bought at the "special bdsm store". it dun do nothing for me.
asciilifeform: and in short order you get the lemon market, where 'why should i pay a cent moar, i know i will get exactly same shit as from lolmart no matter how much i pay'
mp_en_viaje: i dunno about wwwtards! redditards i can see, but in the period between 93 and say digg days as the end, up to about 2010, having a website was rather a promise of sanity.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: if i find a piece by actual human being on subj, will post.
asciilifeform: somewhat retarded heathen 'threat or menace' piece re subj, for anyone interested. difficult actually to find detailed material on the net re this item, i orig. encountered it by chance, deep in the salt mines, in person.
mp_en_viaje: i kid you not. ask the haliburtons
asciilifeform: to pile on the upstack thrd tho : lamp, as i see it, was linux's great ~calamity~. w/out rise of www, linux (or, moar likely, the bsd's) would have stayed small, obscure ( like many of the other systems asciilifeform worked with , that actually work and mp_en_viaje never heard of, or heard of strictly in 'facebookized' variants ) but... working. i.e. remained a green shoot in the pavement, for however long .
mp_en_viaje: the example doesn't, but i recall seeing some other client also take out chars yes.
mp_en_viaje: though in fairness i should probably just fix my fucking client.
asciilifeform: i see the wwwism fad as tumour mass, rather than giraffe. yes from 'who's got the most cells, haha' tumour in yer chest the size of basketball is a 'success' .
mp_en_viaje: i don't even disagree with the broad model.
mp_en_viaje: i'm hanging out with chicks yest, "oh, websites are dead" "what do you do if facebook decides one day fire refereences forbidden on its platform ?" "uhhh
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:21:21 mp_en_viaje: so, not to put too fine a point on it : i really don't give so much of a shit what peculiar buttdildos you use in your own special universe to make yourself feel "different from the rest", "poetic", "not understood" and whatever other such highschooler personal investments. the fact of the matter is, linux exists for and through and by and because apache, mysql, and the glue gluing these together : php. that's wha
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:13:51 mp_en_viaje: i am aware various sysadmin-y folks flatter themselves that "something unixlike'd have existed anyway for our terminal&cmdline needs". this is utterly false, they'd have been clucking at GUI interfaces exactly like the medical profession / barristas everywhere, and been thankful when .jar finally rolled around.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:16:47 mp_en_viaje: the 1990s "tech support" kiddo (perhaps best typified by thorne, who is a faggoty "designer" ; though i'm aware everyone'd rather it be "BOFH" or whatever similar self-wank) running grep over everyone-workking-at-the-videostore's hoemdirs never had any say or pulled any weight. toxicfact or haetfact or wha
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:47:31 mp_en_viaje: i get it, the concept grates, "but mp, i could design so much better systems" no you couldn't. the linux thing was successful ~coincidentally~. a space of possibilities was explored, and this is what STUCK. you can't design a better pile of nonsense for the exact reason you can't design a better elephant trunk : it wasn't fucking designed! it's what stuck!
mp_en_viaje: and i'm not saying you did anything wrong
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm not about to defend individual pieces of the rusting junkyard from which built e.g. logger;
asciilifeform: ty phf , i'ma try said algo
phf: i even explain how to do it in python http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-21#1546421 ☝︎
mp_en_viaje: yes, i'm aware, if you made the giraffe it wouldn't have the laryngeal branch of the vagus go a mile around the heart. whopee for you, but do you know what ? galen was fucking aware this is happening in people too! it's called ~recurrent~ because it goes away and comes back, this is the case in all fucking mammals, equally "for no reason".
mp_en_viaje: i get it, the concept grates, "but mp, i could design so much better systems" no you couldn't. the linux thing was successful ~coincidentally~. a space of possibilities was explored, and this is what STUCK. you can't design a better pile of nonsense for the exact reason you can't design a better elephant trunk : it wasn't fucking designed! it's what stuck!
mp_en_viaje: python/perl/whatever are not "better php". they might be more comfortable php, which is exactly like "i feel weird buying condoms otc, i really need a brown paper bag". fine, whatever works for you. don't tell me though stories about "the really cool store with the really better condoms". they're not better just because the clerk awkwardness-matches you and the SAME EXACT fmcg offering is proffered in an extra brown paper wrapper.
mp_en_viaje: linux-server-database-scriptglue. that's what it's gonna be. call them what you will, but try and remember : buying "alternatives" doesn't make you alternative. i buy rope from the rope store and server from the apache store because i don't wanna pay 5x for shittier rope bought at the "special bdsm store". it dun do nothing for me.
mp_en_viaje: the fucking design of ~everything~ linux is always the same, and always this. divergence from this is neither clever nor ever functional, it'll always reduce to "i'm running LPyFFF because I don't understand why F has to come before the alt-P".
mp_en_viaje: i don't give a shit what you tell the orcs back home, or your crying inner 6yo at night or anything else -- buy the ticket, take the ride.
mp_en_viaje: so, not to put too fine a point on it : i really don't give so much of a shit what peculiar buttdildos you use in your own special universe to make yourself feel "different from the rest", "poetic", "not understood" and whatever other such highschooler personal investments. the fact of the matter is, linux exists for and through and by and because apache, mysql, and the glue gluing these together : php. that's what it is, that's what it's for, th
mp_en_viaje: the 1990s "tech support" kiddo (perhaps best typified by thorne, who is a faggoty "designer" ; though i'm aware everyone'd rather it be "BOFH" or whatever similar self-wank) running grep over everyone-workking-at-the-videostore's hoemdirs never had any say or pulled any weight. toxicfact or haetfact or whatever, fact stays fact.
mp_en_viaje: i am aware various sysadmin-y folks flatter themselves that "something unixlike'd have existed anyway for our terminal&cmdline needs". this is utterly false, they'd have been clucking at GUI interfaces exactly like the medical profession / barristas everywhere, and been thankful when .jar finally rolled around.
mp_en_viaje: since i exhausted him, i will now bark into the ethers (until someone wakes up), in the form of the following consumer computing likbez that we can all discuss once everyone else is sober -- im having second thoughts as to whether i ever want to be sober again.
mp_en_viaje: look at that, "the pellets project" (apt name if i've ever seen one) has documentation of this geficktzug or w/e it was.
mp_en_viaje: or wait, i got them wrong didn't i. kunstjig and zugkammer ?
mp_en_viaje: i like how it's "oh, mp is drunk". wth did i do!
asciilifeform: ok i'ma come back to this thrd when erryone sober.
asciilifeform: i have 1 piz box. wouldja rathet have no logger ? or 'circus'
mp_en_viaje: could just do port forwarding i guess.
mp_en_viaje: ill say ftr what while ~decade ago this was actually standard deployment, i've not been bothered to have it for a long time now
asciilifeform: aha! hence my 'i have nfi what is going on'
mp_en_viaje: god lov'em, cuz i sure as fuck don't.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 13:33:53 asciilifeform: so i still suspect it aint the pipe ( diana_coman lives at piz )
mp_en_viaje: you never mentioned this ? did i miss some log parts ?
mp_en_viaje: https://i.ibb.co/qrLBqY1/29749622-1589941137741526-5385020322950181210-o.jpg << item
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i have no desire for 'improved apache', any more than for 'improved ms vb'
asciilifeform: ( i'd rather paint grass green, if have any say, than to continue fiddling the knobs )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: if yer happy to live with 'teletype' i'ma entirely happily leave it entirely alone
asciilifeform: i suspect at this pt apache absorbed moar hrs than pyramid of cheops. and will welcome proof of 'yer hands grow out of arse, turn this-here knob and the 6s will become 0.2'.
asciilifeform: i don't presently know why mp_en_viaje makes special pleading for apache et al to exempt'em from 'software is univerally shite'
mp_en_viaje: you're approximately the equivalent of that one guy nobody heard of from the manhattan project who decided early on to re-design cars because his window crane nubbin kept falling off. "dude, they already have cars" "yes but they're not right" "we're doing something ELSE here!" "i can't get there, my car's window's nubbin keeps falling off"
asciilifeform: proggy -- is published. if no one sheds light on e.g. how to banish the spurious delay, will have to approach the q with whatever method i know of ( or live with it )
mp_en_viaje: "box is not doing, routerallah is doing", how shall i put this. there's no way to prevent a stampede as the guy being stampeded, it should be self-obvious
mp_en_viaje: in general, fwis, it's ~always much better to do the "use apache for threading and fs-as-cache" model than anything else. but then again i'm not the hacker, don't let me keep you from your destiny.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 13:55:23 asciilifeform: i'm beginning to suspect that nginx, apache, etc. are intrinsically dead weight, when sat in front of a programmatic html shitter
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928274 << i expect this is not even wrong ; apache exists to spit out filesystem to port 80 ; was then extended to spit out cgi and eventually mod php, but same principle.
asciilifeform: (i suspect answer lies deep in the CL libs that he used tho, and not necessarily in head.)
a111: Logged on 2019-08-14 02:31 lobbesbot: Logged on 2015-08-26 20:04:33: <mircea_popescu> "Or in my case, re-write a cooking book. So ladies and gentlorans, I give you Foxy’s Euloran Cookbook V1.1,"
asciilifeform: if i don't find a mechanical method of somehow 'dwim'ing out the intended orcograms, i'ma have the bot replace'em with hammer-an'-sickle . unless someone has better idea.
asciilifeform: i.e. we have a http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928340
lobbes: asciilifeform: I mis-typed; I meant to say that *my own bot echoed* and it does not show in the log. (6 lines up from this line; from lobbesbot)
lobbes: errr lobbesbot's readout. anyways I'll bbl as well
lobbes: asciilifeform: unrelated, but I noticed logbot's readout above is not showing on http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13 O-o
lobbes: I curled that very .log file just now and ran it through hexdump -C. Here is the result of that line (Hex comes out to "92") >> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SSSVY/?raw=true
lobbesbot: Logged on 2015-08-26 20:04:33: <mircea_popescu> "Or in my case, re-write a cooking book. So ladies and gentlorans, I give you Foxy’s Euloran Cookbook V1.1," ☟︎
asciilifeform: i for instance have only the foggiest notion of why cssism does what it does and when/where
lobbes: would be a good discovery in any case. at this point I just wanna know why/what it is specifically
lobbes: of course, now I can't find the example haha. But okay, I'm going to go back and take another look with hexdump in-hand
lobbes: lemme see if I can get a good example
lobbes: may be a better way to check bitrot, but I am pretty novice at this stuff
lobbes: well, I definitely saw some oddities in the raw logs on my end (as in, some of the problem lines had e.g. apostropies rendered as '?' when I viewed them through the 'more' command, for example)
asciilifeform: lobbes: a++ . i'ma try it in coming days ( need #a , #p eaten )
lobbes: No rush to sign anyway. Main reason I even published was mp_en_viaje's solid reasoning >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-11#1927639