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trinque: it is also not necessary to say that because ratings exist in the past I must care about them as much as those more recent

asciilifeform: or the d00dz whose keys i phuctored

asciilifeform: phf: i think we may have more fundamental disagreement:

trinque: before another bout of triggering happens, I think this well defines the debate

phf: well, if that's a common understanding, then i don't understand mp's what is wot article

trinque: if my dead grandfather hated someone, I would most certainly care about that given that he was a man I respected. ☟︎

phf: traditionally this is solved with "obama dun did it, i hear him knocking on the door"

trinque: if I say "I love my wife" in it, then I do; signing "wife exists" doesn't mean I love her

trinque: I see this as the meaning of a rating already. "This exists"

trinque: ended up with disclaimer at top saying "I do not love these; I merely state that they exist"

asciilifeform: danielpbarron , i think, also believes in mechanized shunning, but takes it further yet, and would like to deny enemy access to ratings also

phf: i think it's entirely petty and pointless to use wot as a weaponized shunning

trinque: there's all this theatrical "I rated X in public" and it's written with finger in sand

asciilifeform: i would like to hear some kind of logical counter to this statement. and still have not.

trinque: phf: I understood, and it would make more sense then to have a way of querying phf for his notebook

phf: asciilifeform: i understood your take and i think that wot is a poor defense against "good looking corpse" problem

phf: yes, but i understand you, and you don't understand me, there's really no point in sparing until there's a mutual disagreement over shared understanding. this is like sparring 101

trinque: works pretty well I hear

trinque: sure, I'm just sparring back!

phf: it's a metaphor, you can find all kinds of ways to invalidate it, i was hoping it might clarify understanding

trinque: it is not your notebook; I am holding it

phf: ~i~ see it as an equivalent of signing and stamping every page of notebook "for integrity"

trinque: if so, I say fine, I choose the tool called cryptography to do so

trinque: imagine I'm a bot saying why after every danielpbarron

danielpbarron: i agree the ratings should be signed when sent over wire (to preserve the text) but there is no reason the sigs need to be around each individual rating

trinque: and I already know, "because then people can grab an item from the trail and say that's HEAD"

trinque: that is a purpose. "so that I do not have an audit trail"

danielpbarron: ok. so then let eulora dump and sign its ratings periodically. i don't see why you shouldn't trust it to give you the correct data

danielpbarron: so i assumed people would still have to resister their actual key with the bot prior to getting their eulora account ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:21 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576279 << I'm certainly open to discussing this. I'll give it some thought and then raise the thread.

danielpbarron: i mean i'm not gonna put my key on a networked machine ☟︎

phf: i missed the part where wot was going to be integrated into eulora? i know that deedbot was mentioned

trinque: I'm not going to provide Eulora infrastructure with a standard of "if something fucks up, eh, we'll go back and fix it later"

trinque: great, but I'm discussing providing something as a service as a matter of business.

danielpbarron: i agree with that conclusion

danielpbarron: i've been reading the log for years. i'd very much like to see someone hack the bot and change ratings. let enemy make a fool of himself

phf: trinque: i ~understood~ what he said, and it's an additional point unrelated to his previous argumnt

trinque: it's just another ad hoc "I feel X"

trinque: phf: how the fuck do I parse a statement like that ^

trinque: what did I not hear, exactly?

trinque: this is emphatically "I just want to" use it the way it is

trinque: "meh, data integrity is your job :^)" << >> "alright, I want fucking signed material then"

danielpbarron: i think it's even dangerous to use sigs to preserve things in stone like that. shouldn't be more than a tool to ensure we're talking about the same text. tge signed material doesn't enforce itself. otherwise we're off into smart contract territory

asciilifeform: granted i can easily see how danielpbarron might have come upon his position, given as he practices a religion based on stuffing words into the mouth of long-dead fella

trinque: I am only interested in the hardening of the former

danielpbarron: i don't see how that's useful in the WoT

asciilifeform: here's where apparently i disagree.

asciilifeform: when i sign phf's patch, i have 'posrated' the patch.

trinque: I didn't hear a position other than "not needed"

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's original 'gossiptronic' argument -- and i suppose he can elaborate when he wakes up -- was that a signature is a kind of autonomous and indestructible truth-telling robot, that can be of use to the enemy if one is not careful about when you create it and out of what

trinque: what I mean is, you were not impaled.

phf: trinque: why not? my responsibility, the log, failed as a combination of things inside of my control and outside of my control. i apologized and tried better next time. it's not a bad system.

trinque: I'd have thought so.

trinque: phf: yeah I'm not taking responsibility for the next exploit in all this garbage tyvm

trinque: I am aware of how the bot works; answer my actual question

danielpbarron: trinque, not; at least in current model only the bot is the iffy part. my decryption of the string proves tothe bot that i am me

trinque: I am still waiting to hear why I shouldn't just rely on freenode's auth system to process ratings ☟︎

phf: what i got from the argument last time is that wot ratings don't need that sort of meticulous bureaucratic audit trail. my personal inclination is to of course specify and sign and process (plus it would be cool to have own fork of wot maintained by own means), but i'm not sure i disagree with the first point

trinque: danielpbarron: what if I just allow whoever currently is set as "nick" to rate as "nick"

asciilifeform: danielpbarron's argument, if i understand it, is that folx are doomed to have to ask, e.g., mircea_popescu directly, for mircea_popescu's ratings, because otherwise enemy can win against, e.g., danielpbarron, by locking him inside a bottle where mircea_popescu's ancient and long-revoked rating of magicaltux still stands because signed ??

trinque: or for that matter verify anything I got from assbot or prior

trinque: how do I currently know by looking at my database that no item in it was altered by somebody spraying bits into my server via network card -> dma ☟︎

trinque: which does not invalidate that at the time of signature they were precisely the statement I made

trinque: if I go change them, yes, signed material does not update

trinque: danielpbarron: I recently signed my IPs for various servers

danielpbarron: i thought this was already done in the log : suppose i give +5 one day and -10 the next? without the latter it would appear i trust the guy -- WITH SIGNATURE!!! ☟︎

asciilifeform: i dun see the 'win' from encouraging people to byzantiate and twofaced lie and give different answer to X and to Y regarding how they rate Z. ☟︎

danielpbarron: i don't see the benefit in signing the rating string; if it gets mitm'd it won't match on the bot's end and the user will clearly see something is amiss

trinque: but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing ☟︎

trinque: I understood it to be able to do both attributable and non-attributable statements

danielpbarron: this is counter the the gossipd model of "i heard so-and-so said whatever"

trinque: under the present scheme I could do the same, but have to trust the wire to be honest, or find a better wire, which proceeds towards dragging gossipd in as a dependency

trinque: if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>" ☟︎

trinque: but I like the stardate being present

mats: i grew up violently scolded whenever i'd leave meat on bones, grains of rice behind on the plate, and i've carried this discipline through to adulthood

trinque: I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP" ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 14:56 mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)

trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576279 << I'm certainly open to discussing this. I'll give it some thought and then raise the thread. ☝︎☟︎

mats: i mean specifically the folks ~in space~ rather than those on earth, aspiring to be there. no longer taking free air, water, food for granted, cooperating to survive in vacuum or organizing as a society to terraform $planet

mats: this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost ☟︎

mats: i have half a dozen of them hanging and another ten or eleven in a crate

mats: i'd have asked that canadian fella to print all the spacex and nasa sets on canvas but he had to go and be retarded, so...

phf: trinque: yes yes that's why i prefer going sporting with rednecks and southerners, they don't cry about things

phf: when i came to u.s. my biggest surprise was that locals are into neither. you try and rough them up they think you some kind of crazy person, you try and get them into a debate they get all scared and confused.

asciilifeform: i thought that all children played like this... ☟︎

phf: people i knew back home were much more into verbal sparring, but following the same principles, you enter into dialog take a lot of abuse hope to come out on top, but at the end everyone's friends

phf: i met this small family of germans on a vacation growing up, and they were very visceral, roughing and tumbling with each other, and when i joined in their play, it was tough, they'd punch hard and try and sink you in the pool, but they acted same way with each other and just generally enjoyed what was happening. in fact i'm pretty sure they took it easy on me. i remembering thinking that they were like wolf cubs (they were from Dresden

mircea_popescu: "i got a bun in the oven, or maybe i'm just late, does ivan still drink ?"

phf: "i have this idea for a project, maybe i'll complete it by the end, or maybe i won't even start, so what are you working on?"

mircea_popescu: the focus moves from achievement to "we were physically together tapping keys for a time" i nthe exact same sense iranian women hang out together in the kitchen. "participative experience".

mircea_popescu: i see! heh.

mircea_popescu: i can't say i ever used either that much to tell, but i did fuck around with art studio a lot as a 6 yo

asciilifeform: (with possible difference that, last i heard, shanghai flat doesn't always come with breathable air)

phf: but i was going to say, amusingly enough the whole "cyberpunk/cypherpunk/whatever" thing came from san francisco, and that's what all the jwzs grew up with. "mondo" which later became "boing boing" (and had a blog with same name in the early 2000s) http://theendofbeing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/defd4d784f2e7c1978d81b99904c7869_large.jpg http://sangbleumagazine.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mondo-1.jpg

phf: i remember taking linear algebra course in u.s. college, sort of mildly excited "finally learn this shit proper!" just to realize that my level of knowledge by then was grad research level. stopped showing up half way through, just taking tests..

mircea_popescu: "Keep in mind we do all this, because we can and because we like the thrilling excitement of winning over the other competing groups. We absolutely don't do all these releases, to please the general user that rather want to spend their cash on updating to the latest hardware, and see's the scene releases as a source to play all these games for free." << all the way down to despising the consumer / i just want to jwz.

phf: i might've seen that, but i don't think i saw it until after i moved to u.s.

asciilifeform: phf: actually i had ~standard~ deluxepaint for msdos

asciilifeform: nothing was wasted, one of the pins controlled ultra-cheap tape deck i/o, the rest - banked addr space

phf: i mean all the tools were ports from amiga. "nah, you don't use photoshop, here's this thing that we ported from amiga"