log☇︎
77100+ entries in 0.526s
a111: Logged on 2014-07-30 13:57 asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
mircea_popescu: anyone happen to recall the trilema article in which i explain it's a fucking stupid idea to shoehorn female sexual choice into a source of male hierarchy because it puts all sorts of problems in the lap of young sluts they have nfi how to resolve ?
mircea_popescu: they can start with the m3, any time they grow a pair.
ben_vulpes: wyrdmantis: ffs get a bouncer
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what i mean to say is that it's about the only thing one could deploy around that many folks, is something that goes blooie in the air rather than a zillion rather-fast bullets most of which will come back down at lethal speeds
mats: yes, there is a proximity fuse that disperses shrapnel
asciilifeform: or the jew from mircea_popescu's old tale, who dropped a cheque into a grave
mircea_popescu: this is why you get a russian, gets the soak done.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: these 'motherland cried TO US, HER SAVIOURS!' clips are a dime a dozen.
mircea_popescu: he's added a third to his harem, she came in the mail.
mircea_popescu: i've yet to find a hitler servant that fucked anything.
asciilifeform: historically accurate to the point of wtf -- even radio controls (what good are they in a sim?) are there. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: whence it comes is not really my concern, for all i know it is running a charity on mars for poor usian children.
mircea_popescu: the currency of the reich is, as the original hitler well observed, a sort of sweat.
mircea_popescu: the "money" is not a point of interest here.
mircea_popescu: to which mp reacts with http://trilema.com/2014/an-era-ends-today-a-new-era-starts-today/ ; which is notable in the form, but not in the result. hitler gets to do his usual manipulation, and "win", but a) hitler is stuck denying the venue where he won exists, and this hurts him so bad he spends a year trying to get kakobrekla to eventually agree "fiat is a better deal" and whatever other "modern science & democracy" nonsense
mircea_popescu: that "and them only" trailer is mostly why we haven't had the pleasure. just as soon as hitler figures out how to remove it, he WILL burn his citizenry into a crips, as he always does.
mircea_popescu: no, actually - a forest fire that singes every ~law abiding~ participant and them only.
asciilifeform: it is best-case. average-case will also involve a forest fire that singes ~everybody.
mircea_popescu: this is a best case view not supported in practice (by which practice we mean the repeated etherape, symbolic as it is of the chances of the premier science and technology institution in the world in front of a loose assemblage of things that don't, supposedly, exist.)
asciilifeform: (specifically, a node where somebody touched the hot wire, will accept blocks that other, traditional nodes, will not. and/or reject blocks with they ~will~. definitionally - forktronic.)
asciilifeform: that may or may not get forked at a particular time, but now ~is~ forkable, leaving you and anyone dumb enough to use your patched btctron on the -- almost certainly -- losing end.
asciilifeform: as soon as you touch the hot wire, you now have a 'schrodinger's blockchain'
asciilifeform: davout: see a few min ago. link. it was not touched in prb10.
mircea_popescu: there should be a word for computer code that does the opposite of what it "appears" to be wanting to do.
davout: so a block doesn't pass AcceptBlock if one of the transactions has nLockTime > blockHeight
asciilifeform: davout: all tx that live in a block must be 'final' yes
ben_vulpes hands davout a beer
davout: so it appears I'm a fucking idiot here
asciilifeform: and observe, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-27#1510563 , the prb idiots did not ever dare to introduce eggoging-on-locktime-violated. because that there'd be a phork ☝︎
asciilifeform: nor a block containing said 'violator' tx.
asciilifeform: ergo no trb node will ever reject a tx for reasons pertaining to 'locktime' garbage.
mircea_popescu: but as far as software design and business risk planning goes, importing any prb means locking in a certain future loss.
mircea_popescu: sooner or latter prb WILL be unwound. this is a certainty. just a matter of when.
mircea_popescu: davout trb does not implement any of the prbisms. this means that ANY innovation included by the power rangers is a "while it lasts" thing, and building on top of it is setting one up for tears.
davout: asciilifeform: so you're saying a block including a transaction with locktime > block height is considered valid by trb ?
asciilifeform: the locktime thing is simply a hint that says 'usg-compliant miners, PLEEEZ dun mine this until block X'
asciilifeform: anybody with a few mil. usd to burn could rent the hash tonight to thermonuke it.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-30 20:16 asciilifeform: theoretically a 'will go in node xxxxxxx --- yyyyyyy inclusive or NEVER' field in tx, would have been sane. but it is too late, this is not in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: to mine a block you must have decided what it contains a long while in advance.
asciilifeform: theoretically a 'will go in node xxxxxxx --- yyyyyyy inclusive or NEVER' field in tx, would have been sane. but it is too late, this is not in bitcoin. ☟︎
phf: asciilifeform: a log is just push-vector with checkpoints. entire thing barely takes up 200mb of in memory data
davout: why would a lord want to live without at least ~some~ peasants around?
asciilifeform: davout: they'll pick up high-S tx also, and sit on then RIGHT UNTIL you broadcast a doublespend with correct chirality
asciilifeform: phf: i thought your logtron was fed by a standard db..?
asciilifeform: somehow, this profits somebody, somewhere, or is perhaps a side-effect of some other idiocy.
phf: ftr, least i somehow become sql acid proponent, i'd like to point out that i'm the only person running tmsr infrastructure ~not on a sql database~
asciilifeform: davout: for whatever reason, there exist miners who SIT on a tx, right until the very millisecond that they see a 'doublespend' OF it, and then IMMEDIATELY mine the ~first~ one.
mircea_popescu: mats was that a quote ?
davout: asciilifeform: this ended up never being a problem in practice
asciilifeform: because they are a malignancy.
davout: nevermind that this transaction not only carried a fee, but also resulted in a net cleanup of the utxo set
davout: asciilifeform: because it apparently didn't match whatever prb thought was a "minimum fee"
davout: a couple of days ago
asciilifeform: a doublespend is, in sane planet, STRICTLY attempt to spend coin that was already spent IN A BLOCK
davout: mircea_popescu: yeah, i meant it as a separate, user-initiated step
mircea_popescu: which may be "all" or a subset at your option.
mircea_popescu: no, actually, trb should apply the above scheme EXACTLY like how v applies patches : you populate a wot with acceptable addresses
mircea_popescu: and incidentally "knapsack" problem is a fucking overstatement. here's a very simple strategy : 1. sort available inputs by size ; 2. if current step != last step, select first input that is smaller than tx going out else select the input right before that ; recurse to 1.
phf: everyone sensing there ought to be a fight, but everyone's agreeing
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: we're cramming a year+ of wallet into davout's head now that he's paying attention again
ben_vulpes: fine i'm going to go scream in a corner where i'm sure i'm the only one listening
a111: Logged on 2016-12-30 19:46 davout: trb being able to list utxos given a bunch of addresses would be pretty obviously needed
ben_vulpes: 'inspected for pertinent-to-me tx' is a subset of 'index blocks sanely'
a111: Logged on 2016-12-30 19:43 davout: imho a "warn-if-insane-fee" config knob is largely sufficient, and would allow removal of the "output selection" nonsense from the code
asciilifeform: index'em however you like, if new blocks aren't inspected for pertinent-to-me tx, the thing's a turd
davout: trb being able to list utxos given a bunch of addresses would be pretty obviously needed ☟︎
mircea_popescu: davout it is a good starting point yes.
davout: imho a "warn-if-insane-fee" config knob is largely sufficient, and would allow removal of the "output selection" nonsense from the code ☟︎
asciilifeform: unless there is a clear and fully-capable replacement.
asciilifeform: there has to be a basic mechanism where the thing can be used, in anger, 2009-style, sans perl/python/etc.
asciilifeform: my contention is that a trb with entirely removed unspent-selector is not usable-naked.
davout: in the same way a gun is usable "naked", just don't point it to your face!
davout: such a setup ~is~ usable naked
asciilifeform: not a ~reference~ !
asciilifeform: but there is no reason i ought to have to enter 8 decimal points BY FUCKING HAND 10,001 times to make a tx.
mod6: yeah, a valid rawtx is valid, but yeha, should be approved, somehow by user, before sending.
asciilifeform: but the probability of 'txtron suggests 'send all money to karpeles' or 'send a million btc as fee' ought to be 0.
asciilifeform: mod6: 'create a tx' is np-complete (knapsack problem) so you can potentially end up with strange solutions. user MUST approve before firing.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: error can be tolerated in ~autopilot that user can disable at all times~, i.e. it ~recommends~ a tx, user can review before firing << umm, i dunno about this.
mod6: "build" a rawtx by hand, send it.
mod6: im not fixing the wallet, in this case, ftr. i'm just putting in the ability to create and send a raw tx.
asciilifeform: mod6: error can be tolerated in ~autopilot that user can disable at all times~, i.e. it ~recommends~ a tx, user can review before firing
mod6: anyway! glad to have the help, and the experience from someone who uses this end of bitcoin quite a bit.
mod6: no room for error here, lest someone sends all their coins out as a large fee, or some crazyness.
ben_vulpes: davout's a rubyist, don't expect rigor in terminology from him mod6 :P
mod6: i think over all it's a decent approach. have some pre-crafted transactions, and see how it goes. this is minimum. i wanna make sure we don't just capture "happy-path" but, all edge cases too.
davout: yeah, that's something that seems to me pretty easily testable in a "isolated unit tests" way
davout: try to craft a bunch of transactions, sign them, it either works or doesn't work, testing this functionality doesn't seem to depend on a lot of external, hard to reproduce, state
mod6: well, ... feel free. but i think the coding part aside, which isn't going to be horribru, since a lot of it is backport anyway. but the testing is gonna be gnarly.
davout: yeah, ben_vulpes told me in your very chan, if i can help it i'd be happy to, it does sound like a pretty good starting point for me to hack on trb
asciilifeform: davout: why do you have a prb node, out of curiosity?
asciilifeform: but i saw no reason not to give it a red flip cover.
asciilifeform: eatblock is a specialist tool
a111: Logged on 2016-12-30 19:04 davout: asciilifeform: why is there a specific -caneat flag? is there something specifically dangerous about eating blocks?
davout: also i'm getting a "Flushing wallet.dat" after each eatblock, eats ~50ms each time
mod6: jurov: in that howto, you'll find a series of both offline steps, and online steps. you can choose your own adventure.
davout: asciilifeform: why is there a specific -caneat flag? is there something specifically dangerous about eating blocks? ☟︎
trinque: you otherwise get a case where one user can't submit his form, because mismatch between UI and acceptable-insert
mircea_popescu: phf yes, but a fine approach to answering "what is the basis of alf's value as an engineer" is pointing out that he runs phuctor on the phuctor box, which fails to cost 5k/mo.