log☇︎
77000+ entries in 0.634s
mod6: i thought you didn't want it to fail.
mod6: i apologize for this oversight about the WILD patches.
mod6: i proposed a fix for mine. i think it was ultimiately rejected.
ben_vulpes: i'm changing diapers over here, it's a wonder that even asciilifeform can make sense of what i'm saying.
trinque: and I was all hot and bothered
mod6: i think, he's saying, what is the benefit of V honking when it doesn't find a key in your wot that matches a seal in your seal dir, provided that you don't pull a mod6.
trinque: yes, so, how do I parse that statement.
trinque: otherwise I could swear that was the same thing twice
trinque: I put it there and chemical reactions happened and so on.
trinque: that is not what I said
ben_vulpes: i will motherfucking *not* shuffle both patches/* and .wot/* around when i want to press. this is stupid and carves off a whole space of adjacent possible.
ben_vulpes: i get the impression i disastrously fail to understand your point, trinque .
ben_vulpes: i reserve the right to hold onto gavins patches and never press them by use of .wot.
trinque: I see other folks here discussing in logs.
ben_vulpes: trinque: best i saw was that you want more than one seal and i'm content with one
asciilifeform: trinque: if you'd like to take a stab at a formal definition, i promise to read
trinque: but I cannot see *why* they should other than "I just want to"
trinque: if I am truthfully the only one present that sees parts of the hard definition of this thing falling off all the time I'll leave it there.
phf: ah, yeah i see. ok i'll keep funken one in experimental too, and move it to deprecated eventually
ben_vulpes: trinque: if all vpatches from genesis to HEAD carry a signature corresponding to a key in .wot, v presses. that signatures exist in .seals for people i don't choose to put the key for into .wot should not matter.
asciilifeform: that is, i know of no case where an unsealed, or invalidly sealed, or sealed by nonexistent pubkey, patch, would be pressed without the user having explicitly flipped the red cover and disabled the reactor coolant pump
ben_vulpes: i do not believe that mine did that.
phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate ☟︎
asciilifeform: i.e. the mechanism whereby you press a set for own consumption
asciilifeform: i dun recall anyone, any time recently, disputing the functionality of the latter
phf: ben_vulpes: well, the point of V that has been celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog. you say something, i make a response, etc. this thread was literally about three different versions, one of them is stale, one of them is unreleased. there's not really an easy way to point to the line and say "oh this is what this does" etc. i claim that the source of this problem is fear. the genesis has to be perfect for all
mod6: i like the idea that you've got 'mod6 & ben_vulpes' in your .wot, and that you hvae 69,000 sigs in your .seals dir, and only select out the ones that match the .wot.
ben_vulpes: i hold that exiting on discovery of a seal with no corresponding key in .wot puts an unnecessary burden on the operator to maintain system state.
mod6: And I'm happy to embark on a genesis once we resolve these current problems and the testing and review by lords is complete.
mod6: i do want that traceibility from V, of my V.
ben_vulpes: phf: i'm just wrong
phf: ben_vulpes: see i'm not even sure which one of you is kidding. ~possibly~ neither :D
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-24#1383818 << i believe some are laboring under the impression that eggog == hole ☝︎
asciilifeform: cost of failure, sometimes you simply live with. i signed FUCKGOATS, and it is a 'sapper makes 1 mistake' item, it is not possible to repair the units if i had made a mistake.
mod6: creating a genesis is a different thing too; v create a genesis of v. which i did work out, but alas, as you are eluding to, i never published because was nervous that it hadn't been very well audited yet.
phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress" ☟︎
trinque: and fwiw phf I merely said "do not come to me asking about phf", recently. I did not say further.
trinque: I have released several pieces of homegrown signed code
ben_vulpes: phf: asciilifeform signed his, iirc i signed mine
asciilifeform: phf: fwiw i signed mine on release
phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high. ☟︎
ben_vulpes: then i object to it now.
asciilifeform: i ended up turning that into a warning, vs fatal, but it looks like i never posted this variant. ☟︎
mod6: infact, i stole that error message.
mod6: i posit that it did indeed.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: did your v exit when finding signatures without matching keys? i do not recall.
ben_vulpes: which i wrote before putting down a single line of code.
mod6: i'm happy to re-write/overhaul/whatever this thing.
mod6: but i'm trying to get down to brass tacks as much as possible.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine. << this i dont agree with -- from a technical perspective. it looks to me that girl had "ascii and mod6" in .wot, and when it came across Mr. P.'s genesis .sig, it honked.
ben_vulpes: trinque: i don't follow either
asciilifeform: i was addressing mod6's 'damn, why did i even try' lament
asciilifeform: then i decided that it could be useful to glue these ops together, so that variant-wot operation is possible.
trinque: and what, I have to be drinking to see this? spent pages criticizing the horrible, accidental evolution of cat.
ben_vulpes: phf: can i get http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-November/000241.html in the experimental patchset in your viewer?
a111: Logged on 2015-12-21 22:15 mircea_popescu: so /me gives new girl task to press v, half hour ago. other than the url issue above, "hey what sigs should i put in here ?"
mod6: i am being punk'd
ben_vulpes: i'm pretty sure the design as described above is correct. the way i imagined this working in steady state is for patches and .seals to accumulate all of the patches and signatures thereof a user'd seen over all of history, and then the contents of .wot used to filter the patches and press used to pick a head.
mod6: i just feel like we've been here before. like i have some pavalonian response from this. ☟︎
mod6: i gotta dig through the logs now.
mod6: am i being punk'd?
mod6: what I should do, is ignore that sig, and continue iterating, collecting up all of the mod6 .sigs and then creating a v-tree from just those alone.
mod6: i could almost swear that we had a whole discussion on this before where we wanted it this way??
mod6: so let's back up a minute, cause i'm still trying to figure out what I need to do here...
mircea_popescu: that's ok, i'm just waiting for phf to say something so i unrate him
mod6: im like, mentally retarded. i need things spelled out in explicit, literal forms. :]
mircea_popescu: i agree with the notion .wot is supposed to be a filter over .seals
mod6: ok. see maybe there was something there that I didn't pick up on. :/
mod6: fwiw, and this may not be the correct way, but i think i just tried to clone alf's.
asciilifeform: and i certainly did not put it there directly by hand.
asciilifeform: i have nfi what the crapola in .git does.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i don't even want to open that discussion, it's fucking obvious they're equivalent but whatevers.
mod6: aside from the fact that I might have 69 people in my .wot, and 4000 sigs in my .seals dir.
mod6: and in the context of trb, I would end up with, currently, just genesis.vpatch pressed out in 'output_press_dir'
mod6: so what you're saying... is that i should be able to say "v press output_press_dir SOME_HEAD mircea_popescu"
ben_vulpes: *signatures* i actually mean to say
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i dun recall mine doing any verification
mod6: this is fair, and i agree. i do want it to work the way it it should work. not the way it does work if those are disjointed. no way to get there, except through these kinds of investigations.
mod6: i want it to work the way that it is supposed to work.
mod6: and not that it shoudn't anyway, there are some things about my implementation that i do not appreciate looking back on it.
asciilifeform: i'll point out that for so long as we have an agreed upon patch format, and can agree on a sigtron to use, with agreed pubkeys, 'each d00d has own vtron' worx fine
mod6: i gather, to implement what is sort of discussed here, will take quite an overhaul
asciilifeform: i wonder what was omitted there.
asciilifeform: but now i gotta try other vtrons! ben_vulpes's , for instance
asciilifeform: eh i'm not heated up
asciilifeform: this has been an interesting exercise, i had nfi that i was the only known user of most of the knobs...
asciilifeform: i must have been the only one who actually used the variants thing, to date
mod6: i suspect that it isn't written that way.
asciilifeform: again, i dun see why i should have to remove seals when i variant-wot
mod6: i can't recall.
mod6: i think it's fine. you make a testkey, you sign your test vpatches, you press & test, etc. then we're using encryption everywhere. and we fail fast.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> im not sure it has to die when it encounters malformed patch (be it not signed or whatever), but anyway. << i was thinking this was simple because of this:
mircea_popescu: yes, i know the thread, i was in it. feel free to address http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-15#1238752 at any point eh. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587680 << fwiw i stuck to using my old rusty one, until quite recently ☝︎
mod6: i need to dig into this a bit more, but the output flow is not necessarily the same order that the signature verification happens in.
mod6: consider the following paste I'll put together... stand by.
mod6: So I have a bit of code that I've inserted that will do what you ask.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 21:35 mod6: which basically means to me, either no one understands "vtronics" or no one who did ever audited the thing. and i'm clearly not qualified and shouldn't have written the fucking thing int he first place.
ben_vulpes: ftr i do not want to bin v.pl