log☇︎
76700+ entries in 0.476s
asciilifeform: the one thing i don't quite grasp is why a heavy calibre d00d like the one described, would take the job of ambassador
phf: i'd make a "my lawyer's jewish, i know, i'll make im speak to all other jews" joke, but so far trump's appointments that i heard have been very competent :o
asciilifeform: btw i wonder what a 100kw laser, of the right wavelength naturally, would feel like to the occupant of the windowed tank.
asciilifeform: i'd seriously like to see what happens with, say, the lexan window, vs 'lahti' antitank round from ww2
asciilifeform: i'll pitch in to cover cost.
asciilifeform: aha, i rode in such a car, was crudely made, i could see why it weighs.
asciilifeform: the sysadmin d00d in benghazi, i am told , was also quite surprised in his last 5min of life.
asciilifeform: i did meet a d00d who ~did~ get the job, turns out those containers ain't bulletproof, whod'vethunkit.
asciilifeform: i actually applied
phf: back during iraq war the salaries for ~sysadmins~ were way above what you could get on the market (i remember looking at listings and vaguely contemplating doing it because it ~looked~ like fun), i.e. 100-150k for 6 month of deployment. i think now because of vc money it has switched.
mats: where do i sign up for this sysadmin job in pasadena than pays more than 200k usd
asciilifeform: or i ~would~ burn it
asciilifeform: even in piddling civilian postbox i get aaaaalmost enough crapolade to stoke a furnace with.
asciilifeform: i went on airplane in october and there were signs hanging of 'if you have this-here, put it in this fireproof rubbish bin before boarding, or go home'
mircea_popescu: i don;'t get it, wtf is the problem with the string "Galaxy note" whatever.
mircea_popescu: and just move the whole tree over there, and claim i made it. what stops me ?
mircea_popescu: suppose i make an bitcoin.mp.1 which is like bitcoin.asciilifeform.1 except it includes #alf stole my girlfriend!
mircea_popescu: huh ? i can just make a new patch off genesis.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in general this "make new path and claim the work of others" is always available. i can make new path and claim the work of everyone right now, what's to stop me.
asciilifeform: if i had any reason to think that turning v tree into a forest of vertical stakes , exponentially crowded with IDENTICAL payloads that cannot be machine-compared , would make it easier to tell friend from foe and wisdom from folly -- i would agree with mircea_popescu's algo. but i do not. ☟︎
asciilifeform: i do not see this hypothetical world, where it is unclear who is who.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was discussinfg an imaginary case where "resolution" actually means what it says.
mircea_popescu: why can't it converge, i don't get it ?
asciilifeform: this ~is~ a solution to 'i never again want to lose the key'
mircea_popescu: i also dun get such grumbles ? apparently there's a lot of divergence to be discussed here lol.
asciilifeform: i already get grumbles that trb is an asciilifeform-vertical.
mircea_popescu: well i dunno, the idea of code kinda is to be massive verticals. it;s unclear to me whence this "Signing entire project" comes from either.
mircea_popescu: i don't see this impossibility you discuss.
asciilifeform: if each patch nails down an explicit 'and on top of THIS' press sequence, it drags the entire universe behind it, all of a sudden there is no such thing as 'sibling', i.e. a thing that goes from same ancestor to a different but nonconflicting place.
asciilifeform: so i hand-cranked the sequence using mircea_popescu's method, to agglomerate, forever, a record of the path through the tree. and he is right that this will keep the toposort from detecting a loop. but this is rather like whitening an rng, it confuses only the machine, but not the reader, who will see that the ~output~ resulting from following the path is identical.
mircea_popescu: i am saying however it makes cycles impossible, so let's see that part.
mircea_popescu: yeah, i'm not saying this is some sort of great improvement.
asciilifeform: but now i can also make 10,000,001 paths that lead to the same press, and cannot be easily distinguished by machine. which is a headache that normal v does not suffer from.
asciilifeform: i can still make you a cycle.
asciilifeform: (which is what i gather mircea_popescu intended to do in his paste)
mircea_popescu: note that "insert random garbage" has not actually been proposed as far as i know.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what i'm looking at here ; none of them correctly reference their antecedent hashes, so it's just random garbage
asciilifeform: the example i just posted involves two people, 'a' and 'b', who follow entirely different paths, come to same place, because they do not know about one another and there is no clock. now you can give them a place to put magical comment, but again they have to have a drumbeat or agreement method of one kind or another, or they can still follow this same path.
mircea_popescu: did i miss anything ?
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, two different solutions have been considered. one is to attach an outside clock to the process. this has the obvious disadvantage of attaching an outside clock to the process. the other is to modify the indexing process for the set, from the current "index is hash of textual content" to a more advanced "index is hash of textual content + its context". as an exemplary poc it was proposed that this change may be i
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you mean that you and i both sign the same patch text in the same tree context, the result here has been the very common, and very benign, MULTIPLE SEALS. which we currently have.
asciilifeform: i.e. identical patch.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand, your solution to cycles is to demand that no two patches be equal.
mircea_popescu: i dunno if you read that ; did you ?
mircea_popescu: (also why i said no above to "gensym")
asciilifeform: say i sit down to write a patch.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's solution, if i understand it, is to include a gensym in each patch body.
mircea_popescu: right, is what i meanty
mod6: any others while i'm at it?
mod6: so i think i've tested exactly what you laid out, asciilifeform, with V99995 (the current version out there), and this is the result:
asciilifeform: i will post it, because i have it handy
mircea_popescu: what i want is a->b->c->b.
davout: and why is it considered an issue? i mean, what if we realize all these patches were retarded, that we roll them all back, but want to keep the flow for historical purposes?
mircea_popescu: cuz shorter i guess.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i specifically want a cycle (n >1) where one element traces back to genesis. it seems to me that because one patch can only identify one antecedent, it is not possible to create cycles for the ~same reason organic chemistry doesn't work on hydrogen and oxygen only.
mod6: yeah, i certainly tried. and i thought i even tested this before... so maybe there was a regression. but i'll admit, that python code is very strange to me eith the for with the else.
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, the genesis has an antecessor ?
asciilifeform: mod6: so i guess you did not copy my toposort.
mod6: and when I do that above test ^, i never hit this line: death("Cyclic Graph!\n");
mod6: well, i was trying to discern weather my toposort is correct or not.
mod6: im not sure if i follow. are you saying that genesis isn't a good place to test it because it is a root?
mod6: if i take this output hash from genesis for say, net.cpp:
mod6: (i played with this for a long time lastnight after that quick conversation)
mod6: asciilifeform: hey, say I wanted to test my toposort...
mircea_popescu: ordering is provided by hashing ; we're currently not actually using this, no idea why, but whatever. i really mean it when i say the discussion's exhausted itself, im not gonna sit here an' retrace the same circle witcha.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu or anybody else wants to try to 'square the circle' and make a v-prime algo that doesn't need ordering, i will helpfully show how it breaks.
mircea_popescu: but any any rate, i think this discussion's exhausted itself, we'll have to see later on what we do about this.
asciilifeform: i described one provably-correct algo for doing so, in this thread.
asciilifeform: for so long as you ban cycles, the graph is guaranteed to behave in the predictable and sane way i described when first released v.
asciilifeform: i dun get the problem here?
mircea_popescu: i was supposed to go sha512(#846fdfb9d99724efbc97b1d2b519a221df9724dec3375c54913c1853af221c8e5ad5b5b8c38fffe4b654066071eafd8194fe7b86faa5fbadfbf1c5b872e81410 "Foo Genesis, modified.")
mircea_popescu: no, because when I hashed to check your hashes i went sha512("Foo Genesis, modified.")
asciilifeform: i can godelize your 'hash the patches' thing in the exact same way.
mircea_popescu: i don't actually see any of these. to start with, "hash everything" is exactly not what was done in the example. it hashed ~the text~, it did not hash ~the antecessor's hash~. this is the problem. that it doesn't hash everything, but just the text.
asciilifeform: (i.e. stuffing all of, e.g., trb, into one long document)
asciilifeform: well i do not maintain deedbot, and only could ask politely.
asciilifeform: and i nailed it in 2015.
asciilifeform: i agree.
mircea_popescu: yes but this is one of those things you eminently do not wish to solve by human arbitrariety i dun think.
asciilifeform: i asked many times for the clock, and pretty sure i explained ~why~
asciilifeform: i contend that it isn't a problem, and that i solved it before releasing v.
mircea_popescu: in any case i don't want to discuss problems in a marriage with proposed solutions.
mircea_popescu: i'm not making a positive argument here, and haven't throughout. just trying to examine this thing.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi
asciilifeform: but in re: 'timing issue', we had a thread where i brought up 'two(+) d00dz form a cycle, who do we negrate' and specifically stated that deedbot-for-vpatches is necessary, and that any two+ folx who insist on issuing patches into same blocktime, and end up being part of a loop, are ~both~ idiots/wreckers
asciilifeform: i.e. a thing that can only exist if ~everyone~ has been catastrophically lazy/retarded for a very long time.
asciilifeform: i'll add that f, g, e ~may~ be pressable together in some combination, or may not, it depends on the actual 'patchons' inside
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i drew the graph, not seeing what is meant in your example: what means 'now both g->d->e->f->b->a and g->d->c->b->a are valid presses' ?
mircea_popescu: here's an example to illustrate what i mean :
asciilifeform: and i do not see any need for magical strings in comments.
asciilifeform: i posted this as a litmus test of sorts, for vtrons.
asciilifeform: and btw i ~solved this~ in my first vtron
asciilifeform: but -- and i'd rather that mircea_popescu do this in his head -- you can make a 'munchausen' where both steps (or however many, it can be as long as you like) reference the genesis.
mircea_popescu: yes. so what started all of this in my head, i been trying to lead like three times with "but the problem is :" - we may have a very bitcoin block-esque problem on our hands. specifically, the fact that the hash of a block doth not include the intended hash of its antecessor opens up to a problem we needn't be open to.
asciilifeform: but of course i made them the simple way, by vdiffing from genesis, but then deleting one link of the chain.
asciilifeform: not being an aristotelian, i dun need to!111
asciilifeform: i can make you another that follows whatever shape you like.
davout: the first things i get when looking into this waka thing are indeed nasty
mircea_popescu: davout i am fwiw satisfied the problem is as follows : that fielding schmuck is an academitard. therefore publish or perish. meanwhile for incomprehensible reasons people decided to name some obvious item "rest" and reference him, as if he had anything to do. this created the basis for an academitard position for him, and put him in the publish or perish wringer. so he came up with the other thing, because gotta come up with
mircea_popescu: post the example i guess ?