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mircea_popescu: http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?from=2015-12-20T19 << there's a log, insanely shitty with too much js to run, but i think it may go back usefully.

phf: he used to have a top level domain with artifacts that he was producing. txt files of notes, diffs for sbcl etc

ben_vulpes: occasionally i ask a question and someone answers

phf: "<nyef> (Speaking as someone who wrote his own standalone Forth and then used it to load a stripped-down hacked SBCL core on bare metal x86.)"

asciilifeform: phf: this is theoretically solvable. but it's a c proggy.

phf: so far only person who wrote anything for tinyscheme is myself, and tinyscheme is more of a PoC than anything else. bignums for example were ~unreasonably~ expensive

asciilifeform: but is unsuitable for different reason (it has no compiler, is a c proggy, cannot compile self)

asciilifeform: boot sector loads a few 100 kB of hand-rolled code, and talks solely via uart.

asciilifeform: (quite enough for a forth, say.)

asciilifeform: it's enough to operate a very basic comp.

phf: nyef actually spent a lot of effort trying to put sbcl on raw hardware, and he's a competent hacker (he also did sbcl port to arm for example)

ben_vulpes: i was certain that we'd done the 'omg cmucl compilation' lolz thread before; is this a time loop? where are picard and riker

ben_vulpes: dog if that's a jet fighter i'm the ceo of apple

asciilifeform: is the idea 'read the code for a month and then MAYBE you will realize in what order to build'

asciilifeform: * but it will often cause CMUCL to fail to save a new core file.

asciilifeform: * pointing to a free page, because these are newly allocated

asciilifeform: * object pointing to an object that is on a free page. In normal

asciilifeform: * happening is that when a core is loaded, there is some static

asciilifeform: * For some reason x86 has a heap corruption problem. I (rtoy)

asciilifeform: y'know, this is how folx end up on a scaffold with mircea_popescu pissing down their neckstump

asciilifeform: looks like honest attempt at a glider, possibly

shinohai: To me appears most of hull is cloth stretched over a frame, or are those wrinkles?

asciilifeform: (d00d ~does~ offer a schematic for 'keyboard and vga' using modern micro, at the end of the page, though)

asciilifeform: phf: aha. the z80 is ~decorative on such a box.

phf: well, it's a lispm kind of architecture, with a single central controller, and extension boards of various degrees of dirty. though i guess the real "core" here is the opaque STM32

asciilifeform: it offloads a megatonne of work onto a modern micro

phf: it uses the word "modern" a lot, but from cursory glance it doesn't look insane

a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 18:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it'd get quite painful for a large proggy.

trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605315 << yet shouldn't be overlooked that several folks came to play immediately when there was a shared repl available ☝︎

trinque: nah, the idea that these guys are using this as a substitute for healthy human interaction is spot on.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it'd get quite painful for a large proggy. ☟︎

asciilifeform: if cpu wants to move, add, subtract, etc. a bitstring, it has a length glued to it, and a type (that indicates, among other things, what it means to 'add' it, say), also glued to it.

asciilifeform: on a proper lispmtronic comp, there is no juggling of 'pointers' or any other naked, unannotated bitstrings.

mircea_popescu: i suppose its tagged memory model does pretty much a superclass of the above

asciilifeform: on a proper lispm (definitionally) it is done by the iron.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in sane programming system (e.g., lisps) nobody gets to point to 'memory address'. they point to an item that necessarily and unseparably carries not only address (not visible to or alterable by the operator, normally) but also a type and -- when the thing is >1 machine word in size -- a size.

mircea_popescu: that doesn't mean the cpu die must be cast in such a way as to allow anyone else to do it.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for so long as memory is sold as a dumb capacitor grid, cpu can necessarily address all of it (that is, all of the connected ones)

asciilifeform: (yet unpublished) 'p' is a 'bytecode' system -- all ops are 1 byte long, and take no operands, and all bytes are valid ops.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nah, 'jets' were a terrifying crackpottery where he promised to 'recognize algorithms' and 'transparently' substitute in optimized/c-tronic routines

a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 17:40 asciilifeform: or is it 'bytecode' a la tinyscheme?

asciilifeform: trinque: i must note: just because asciilifeform barfed, does not mean that a clean solution to the problem cannot exist. only that he did not find one.

a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 17:31 asciilifeform: seems like a fully-musltronic, work-ready linux is possible, then.

phf: you could maybe put cmucl's interpreter vm into l0, have vops as operations that you need but that you don't have in a vm (simd, floating point)

phf: actually it's all a lot more clearer when you read the early cmucl papers. the mess grew in unix user space..

phf: so eval directly on source, without a vm even?

phf: well, that's not the right term to use. depending on a vop it either jmps, calls or inlines

asciilifeform: or is it 'bytecode' a la tinyscheme? ☟︎

asciilifeform: then thing has a chance of working correctly.

phf: there's some strategy in building multithreading in a lisp that all the commercial lisps share with cmucl and that's different from sbcl, but i'm not quite sure what it is yet

phf: re cmucl threads i think that it doesn't always preempt correctly. like it has explicit yield, which you don't always have to call, but it being there implies. also hunchentoot wasn't working right without putting a yield somewhere in the scheduler. it's all very vague, because i've not spend any time looking at it

phf: well, stali has a musltronic pdf reader and web (they have their own wrapper around webkit, called st i believe, which is literally just a frame with addressbar)

asciilifeform: seems like a fully-musltronic, work-ready linux is possible, then. ☟︎

asciilifeform: was it a unixism ?

phf: cmucl is basically a very straightforward lisp machine port, so there's less unixisms built in. sbcl is modernized for unix, but with corresponding tradeoffs

phf: one of the major reasons why porting cmucl might be easier, a lot more naive image construction (doesn't have that whole sb! sb- machinery), and lack of threads

phf: there's was a wip fork of making linux-unix.lisp talk directly using syscalls without libc. that's probably lowest common denominator

phf: did anybody do a musl sbcl? i have a musl cmucl in the backlog, but way down the list (perhaps once i get this x60 going)

phf: i thought little axes were standard issue item, sort of like a sapper spade

asciilifeform: not afaik, but perhaps phf saw such a thing.

mircea_popescu: incidentally this'd have been a great show, i imagine, guy going on street idly, happening on meat shop just as the truck unloads, and generally doing a grand blond a la chaussure noire but a la russe.

mircea_popescu: well supposedly in moscow there also lived a fellow who always found fish at the meat shop and to this day has nfi what everyone was on about.

a111: Logged on 2017-01-19 16:28 mircea_popescu: yep. usg banks won't do intl wires, for a decade+ now

mircea_popescu: conversely of course, every dollar you do take out of the us hurts the usg considerably ; i'd guess the going rate is 130k expatriated is about equivalent to shooting a nypd officer in the face.

mircea_popescu: (and if you try to drive cash to mexico they'll try and steal it ; and if you eg open a foreign corp with a subsidiary in the us and send the money home they'll pretend you're engaging in money laundering, and in general expatriating your wealth is generally more difficult than it's worth, which is why sane people do not live in the us.)

mircea_popescu: yep. usg banks won't do intl wires, for a decade+ now ☟︎

phf: as a valid ifsc

phf: in unrelated lulz a u.s. retail bank is unable to send an international wire transfer. i bring a piece of paper with all correct requisites. half the numbers "i don't know what this number is", so follow up with calls for numbers from the fucking paper that, who could've predicted, are required. write down the numbers on their end incorrectly. the last part of saga: they now claim one of the numbers is invalid, but if you simply google for it it comes up

mircea_popescu: trinque "sales" here means usg sops style nothing, like obamacare isn't a tax. his thing was mentioned once on a forum with 3k "registered users".

trinque: 3k sales and he couldn't pay for a semi-literate lawyer ?

asciilifeform: 'According to the statement of facts filed with the plea agreement, Shames developed malicious software, known as a keylogger'

asciilifeform: phf: fleanode's 'security' was a joke afaik always.

mircea_popescu: you understand nothing they leveraged works ? they ain't got a browser. google is trying to rescue 20 years of weveling with dubious results. there's no python 3. there's no ipv6. there's no trb. there's no eth. there's nothing. NOTHING.

phf: seems like freenode upgraded all their servers to letsencrypt, meaning that you can't just verify ssl's fingerprint once a year. instead each server has own ssl, updated once in 90 days.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 19:23 mircea_popescu: which i suppose warrants a general warning : DO NOT UPGRADE YOUR GCC TO 5.0! SAVE YOUR COPIES OF 4.X AND PRIOR!

asciilifeform: 'If you’d like to join us, there’s plenty to do. You could: Port a small C function in lisp.h to lisp.rs. Port your favourite built-in elisp function to Rust.'

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/garond-a-murit/ << apropos of nothing at all, anyone else kill garond ?

mod6: There's still a bunch more clean up and testing ahead, but a step in the right direction. o7

a111: Logged on 2017-01-14 01:07 mircea_popescu: a patch can only apply if ALL of its antecedents are present ; not if ANY of its antecedents are present

mircea_popescu: well then may i recomend a tardis.

mircea_popescu: also shittier down by a LONG shot

mircea_popescu: i think they use a mechanic plucker, ~beat carcass with sticks

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform buy a coupla live ducks and oranges. make pekin duck and new pillows.

shinohai: I bought a down pillow at JCPenny but has been a bit

thestringpuller: asciilifeform: dunno if helps. but recently invested in tempurpedic-like pillow due to sleep issues. neck support made a difference.

thestringpuller: shinohai: a VER-ified trust store?

thestringpuller: asciilifeform: "During the manufacturing process, a unique set of keys are generated and stored in the processor’s fuse array. One of these fuse keys is not known by Intel and is one of the components used to form the basis for consistent derivation of subsequent sealing keys." << in other snorefest. "Unknown" to Intel during manufacturing...uh huh...

mircea_popescu: anyway, as far as "online web industry" is concerned, definite signs of a trumpocalypse. sort-of how there was a pre fdr and a post fdr or a pre lincoln and post lincoln america ; there's going to be i suspect a pre-trump and a post-trump web

mircea_popescu: by people who do a lot of couch surfing and type on tablets.

mircea_popescu: which kinda makes me suspect the whole field's ripe for a generation change. "feminism" is certainly shattered post trump, so it looks like there may be a 6th wave brewing. and the 2nd generation seo dorks who came online with the "social media" revolution and web 2.0 idiocies are mostly falling back into regular jobs and boring marital arrangements so there's a void, to be filled.

thestringpuller: he looks liek a gooback -> http://www.humanitysucks.com/blog/files/SP_goobacks.jpg

mircea_popescu: well it's more like a burlap thing... call it a burlacket ?

shinohai: Best I can tell he posted a link to theymos' personal info

mircea_popescu: don't tell me he had a dispute over who's paying for the two slices of pizza with some other captain of industry and ended up going into the blockchain.info admin interface all over again

mircea_popescu: well, a whore is the sexually active girl who won't fuck you ; and the alpha is the dude she'll fuck in preference. i'm pretty sure that's the extent of the common ground, ie, the "community" definition.

asciilifeform: there does not seem to be a consistent definition in use.

mircea_popescu: (how the fuck anyone even marginally conversant in the respective topics manages to wade through the bullshit is anyone's guess. but somehow a concept for group role in evolutionary biology became a brand of identity in "evolutionary biology", and we're all speaking of "alphas" and "betas" as if these are a thing, a brunette, a beta. i guess in a very postmodern cartoonish sense they are. aanyway.)

mircea_popescu: it's becoming quite evidently a poor-white-vs-poor-black dynamic, now that i think of it. "engineer" is there in the sense "ceo" is there in soap operas as the symbolic job of the husband. not like he ever does any ceo-ish things.

mircea_popescu: i suppose that's actually the demographic underlying the conceptual oddity, "red pill" subculture is mostly low wage rural whites, who work for a highway diner, go in afghanistan, etc.

mircea_popescu: which doublessly IS a vein, but which really has naught to do with either power or thought.