log☇︎
70800+ entries in 0.542s
mircea_popescu: until you have net interface that somehow (how the fuck ?!) doesn't get to read/write to memory, your isolation is soup served in a calender.
Framedragger: that said, fuck *again* i expose myself to arguing for a point i do not heartily believe in. need to reassess my shitty approach.
mircea_popescu: isolation is the metaphysical concept of running software independently on a machine which shares bus access among undefined peripherals and has no way to isolate cpu instruction runs.
trinque: Framedragger: no, I said it's not a fucking thing on the same machine!
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the xwindow thing was a simple example of the lowest fucking level of this. what isolation. it never yet happened.
Framedragger: i only see folks denying the concept of isolation, i maintain that it's not altogether a useless concept. disagreement in premises
mircea_popescu: "can't say our democracy is a waste of everyone's time". ooops...
mircea_popescu: trinque "socialism is not a bad concept just wasn't correctly implemented."
mircea_popescu: tell me now you run without a window manager.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625637 << isolation is , at MINIMUM, is when you have a rack of... isolated machines ☝︎
Framedragger: a process by which one restricts the system-provided resources that a particular entity (just "process", for now, say) is exposed to; the effect of which is that the entity functions as if in a stand-alone system dedicated to its purpose
ben_vulpes: and then i waste a year and untold piles of shitbucks on docker
ben_vulpes: this is seen as an inevitability and not a cancer somehow
ben_vulpes: grow a budget, get some servers, problem?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger honestly i know of no better than "get a box"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625537 entirely. ther'es hordes of chicks who are taught to dick about with "google analytics". there's hordes of dicklets who docker. there's a whole population of people who in 1817 would have been making textiles by hand. ☝︎
Framedragger: i expect folks regard the "crash and go away" as a feature - just restart it bro, etc.
mircea_popescu: spinsterism. it's a thing.
ben_vulpes: "oh, no, why would you ever want to do that? aren't you a professional opsbro? with centralized logging? containers are ephemeral, you low-dough derp! they crash and go away!"
ben_vulpes: but that's not all! say one wants to get into a running container where something went wrong to inspect it's state
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625594 << docker containers are *supposed* to be ephemeral. 'volatile containers' in itself is not a worthless concept. don't take it as me advocating for them, just, ftr. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: a yeah there they are, 50k contingent. lol.
asciilifeform: hey if there can be a 'latvian army' why not a dutch one.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the two are economically about the same size, but the dutch army would count as a half regiment of the turkish.
ben_vulpes: the endless pile of "i would like to perform what i consider a basic operation of type X" "here have a shell script of awk and sed"
Framedragger: i have some good memories from using bsd jails some years ago. the core concept of isolation (fs, process, network, etc) is not bad. providing integrated interface not a bad thing, either. problem with docker is it doesn't do it in a consistent way, is too bloated, is ~proprietary +/-, and does the abstraction in a way that invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless.
jhvh1: 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
mircea_popescu: "oh it musrt be a configuration problem"
mircea_popescu: problem with these hipster solutions is they're only good for about half a year.
Framedragger: apparently offloads export/computation to neo4j, a hipsta graph db
asciilifeform: Framedragger: ben_vulpes already wrote a block & tx parser, his is the closest we have right now to a usable one
Framedragger: https://github.com/behas/bitcoingraph refers to that paper. it has this tool, https://github.com/behas/bitcoingraph/blob/master/scripts/bcgraph-export , for allegedly dumping transactions for given range of blocks. that tool refers to https://github.com/behas/bitcoingraph/blob/master/bitcoingraph/bitcoingraph.py#L128 which has has a shitty python callstack but boils to
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you have a bash script that parses tx ?!
asciilifeform: 'On May 13th 2012 we downloaded the full public record of this system in one of its two major forms, which consisted of about 180,000 HTML files. After parsing and processing these files, we built a graph...'
asciilifeform: ( i , like complete idiot, wanted to 'let's write a quick c proggy like blkcut' )
asciilifeform: 'Anti-transaction replay in a hardfork'. just for mircea_popescu apparently.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the mystery of the black box that manages to require 59kb to store 8 x 4byte directories, ie a whooping 99.99% wastage....
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: you sure you want benchmarks? /me thinks it's a lost cause
mircea_popescu: think, it's a tree. 1/3 to 1/2 is cut by that
mircea_popescu: it wouldn't surprise me if a corner case were discovered where THIS permits doublepsend
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 03:53 Framedragger will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625413 << i will also remind that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625312 which (i forgot this last night) means that in my view, there's no friggin' way eight-level-deep tree structure can hold transactions. every symlink is a file, and on top of that, with 8 levels, most about every transaction will create multiple additional folders ☝︎☝︎
asciilifeform: it isn't clear why to preserve anything else, if this is amputated. it is the very example of 'grandfather's pistol' -- any mistake is a) not necessarily detectable with ANY kind of testing b) potential reactor melt
mircea_popescu: the insanity of putting such a thing there, as opposed to you know, THE FUCKING WALLET
asciilifeform: 'let's make blocks variable length' 'let's make tx variable length' 'let's make tx INDICES variable and UNBOUNDED length' 'because mother dropped me as a baby'
asciilifeform: eeeevery single fucking time i sit down and assume that shitoshi did the obvious, simple, correct thing, and build a hypothetical on ~that~, i later open the binder and find that -- guess what
asciilifeform: if trb is in a state of snake tongue, ALL of the affected tx do not belong in the index table
asciilifeform: the Right Thing, as i see it, is : if a tx is in orphaned block, it does not belong in the index table
mircea_popescu: it's probably the cause for the whole spend thing, as a sort of unexamined insurance.
asciilifeform: there are two possible places for a duplicated tx: an orphaned (nonlongestchain) block, and a snake-tongue (if you will), one of two fork prongs of equal length, on the leading end.
asciilifeform: namely, that a particular tx can reside in more than one block, if the leading end frays (forks)
asciilifeform: since ben_vulpes never came back with a #
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 16:57 asciilifeform: btw i will also put down in the log, one very simple possible algorithm for a 'txidx-fs' :
mircea_popescu: bdb sits on a fs.
mircea_popescu: this is a misrepresentation : the turd is in there already.
asciilifeform: but for the l0gz, lemme finish: replacing bdb, massive turd, with ext (or reiser, or any) equally or greater mass turd, (and now with linux dependence !!) is not a win.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: symlink is a file for this purpose
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 13:51 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625313 << on the basis ~of actual measurements~ your position is indomitable. wtf, HALF A SECOND for ~8~ deep directory structure ?!
mircea_popescu: you ever go to school ? what usually happens there's a chick there that's really good pre-puberty. then she starts bleeding, and she skips some classes / homeworks / attentionpaying. and then... she can never catch back up again. because interlocking. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: Framedragger for the sake of argument : "here's link to my work so far published on my blog" is worth a guinea. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625386 is worth twopence. ☝︎
phf: i think the deep value in an exercise like "replace db with a filesystem" is the reduction of moving parts. ext2 is a straightforward inode based tree, with a separate relocation phase, etc. journaling adds the whole overhead (for it's primarily cognitive) of secondary redundancy that you now have to factor into all your considerations
mircea_popescu: (pretending for a second the design is sane, which it isn't -- who the fuck counts by int a set of hashed items omfg)
mircea_popescu: can definitely also store by shifted blockheight, 0000/0000 etc. it will still be a thing as large as the other one
mircea_popescu: it's a hash. you're thinking store by blockheight ?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 13:51 mircea_popescu: contrary to what ANYONE may pretend, ext4 IS NOT A FS!!!! it's a ridiculous toy at best.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625335 << i'm surprised that ext4 is even considered, as opposed to ext2. i believe we even had a thread about it some long time ago ☝︎
Framedragger: (you'd need to have a *lot* of blocks to have average num of files per second-to-deepest dir be >= 1; i dont think one needs 8 levels, but i see the point in trying this)
mircea_popescu: 2. index to those blocks (say, eg, to find txn, or anything else) is stored in a SEPARATE dir structure, and at the bottom there's simlinks to the block files.
mircea_popescu: 1. actual blocks (1mb files) are stored in a directory structure, based on their hash say. this is 8 deep because hey, max filecount in a dir, we want to make a proper system.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: to be clear, the way this would work is, there'd still be symlinks at the bottom ends of the dir structure, pointing to blocks (which are stored in a single dir, say)?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger suppose you store the blocks whole. what is the seek time of one dozen 1mb files dispersed randomly in a 8 deep directory structure, defined as (time when all are in ram) - (time when call was made) ?
mircea_popescu: "oh i had a job i went to work through traffic every morning"
mircea_popescu: to revisit http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625097 which is apparently a daily fixture by now : ☝︎
mircea_popescu: yeah i don't have a problem with you. still monumentally pissed off.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for completeness, i should state that it may be "workable" (in the sense of slightly less horrible) to just keep a flat dir tree structure, one or two levels deep - if you don't ask fs to list files in dir and just want to access filenames you already know, it's ~okay-ish. but i think i agree that the whole fs idea needs to be dumped, in general
mircea_popescu: contrary to what ANYONE may pretend, ext4 IS NOT A FS!!!! it's a ridiculous toy at best. ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 04:05 asciilifeform: Framedragger: imho the 'use existing fs' thing is a dead end.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625313 << on the basis ~of actual measurements~ your position is indomitable. wtf, HALF A SECOND for ~8~ deep directory structure ?! ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 12:10 mircea_popescu: dude, they fucking gutted them. olympus agreed to pay the usg ~70 billion yen in fines, and install obama's children as an "independent outside monitor". whole corp market cap being you know, 1.3trn or some shit. who the fuck pays 5% of the market cap as a fine already, what is this, Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи ?
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624970 << where once you were a crackpot laboring in public obscurity, now you are a luminary of the republic. defections will continue apace until the old empires yield their last secret. ☝︎
asciilifeform: Framedragger: imho the 'use existing fs' thing is a dead end. ☟︎
Framedragger will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get. ☟︎
Framedragger: (btw the 'creation' is not bottlenecked by python or w/e; straight syscalls and simple c, and the random hex generator is a small footprint)
Framedragger: oh lord. *creation* of seven-levels-deep directories (in the format of "6d56/a6f4/f1d5/67a3/505c/a7d0/9c72/6fff/e75e/a482/e36b/6b5b/7421/f9cf/e36a/", with last 8th level being symlink) takes a long time, and is also space-wasteful on ext4. to 'store' 1k transactions it takes ~0.41s and takes up 59M of space. this without actual symlinks (should be fast but should check later). *removal* is ~0.45s
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 19:06 phf: (if nobody else steps up, i'm going to bring one up in a day or two)
mircea_popescu: and this is a general tendency, not just here. consdier $random example : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623902 ☝︎
phf: asciilifeform: you've made a lot of unfounded assumptions. somehow everyone acts in bad faith unless they involve asciilifeform in their going ons?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 01:29 phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there
mircea_popescu: consider the point! http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625177 << to this i could say, "the defensive play, of course, being to always link to the baseline when a field is discussed" to which his retort would be, of course, "yeah and he;ll just say a string with kindergarten in it". ☝︎
mircea_popescu: but this is a plain converse issue of "coffin liner"
mircea_popescu: nobody ever kicks anyone out of a dinner for being vegetarian, why the hell would anyone worry what people think of him for not having done x thing de rigueur.
mircea_popescu: a large part of the problem being that in a "democracy" there's ~no incentive to behave in a less shitty manner.
trinque: getting old and having failed is a thing.
mircea_popescu: alternatively, they a) didn't know (either item) ; b) didn't care ; c) didn't know they don't know ; d) didn't care they don't know and so folllowing.
asciilifeform: my pessimistic reading of this picture is that all of the folx who a) knew b) knew that asciilifeform wanted to know c) didn't tell -- were playing some peculiar power game in their heads, re 'access to the treasure trove', and how mean ol' asciilifeform wants to take this magic access and make it worth 0 ...
mircea_popescu briefly imagines how a world like that would be, where he;'d get notifications of every vaguely eligible bachelorette on an hourly basis. good god what a terrible crapsack fit for sf.
mircea_popescu: even now, you understand this alfie, EVEN NOW there's girls spreading for random dorks somewhere notwithstanding you're looking for a girl just like them. and they won't as much as whatsapp a notification to you!
phf: i would very much like to start a clandestine operation called "the whisperers", but since it's not in the logs, someone else will have to do it
phf: i'd rather not loose a chip in transit, and since avocation, i don't care about time frames.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't think that's a wasted effort. i got in touch with zeptobars people again, and my current best option (since they said shipping to russia is maddness) is to travel moscows sometime in summer and hand deliver the chip. assuming that i have one, but i take it you're no longer interested since "snap4 source" ☟︎