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mircea_popescu: and weaponry is to be used as per fucking manual and design, not obliquely wtf.
mircea_popescu: beleive it or not this is the logic i use all the time. what, you think rich people get a special science / engineering that works differently ?
mircea_popescu: alternative candidates have nothing speaking for them.
mircea_popescu: 4096 is the smallest power of two which produces a rsa key that is, factually, incomputable.
mircea_popescu: increasing tank size up to the 4096 bit tank pays off. increasing tank size past 4096 bit tank results in fucking panthers and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nevertheless, there is an optimal bullet per target, and nobody makes the calibre twice as big. if not because their mind works enough to understand why not, then because the very sad experience of the nazis illustrates why the fuck not.
mircea_popescu: this is nonsense argument, and in fact they could "afford" both but they don't fucking use both. they use the correctly sized one based on human thickness and wetware bullet refraction properties.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is EXACTLY not the case. i am saying "7.62 is sufficient, because it will blow a hole through man, as result of interplay of actual universal constants" and you are saying "yes but 15.2 would be bigger".
mircea_popescu: the man who lost 100 bits is the same man who will lose 200 bis.
mircea_popescu: the way this conversation is going, we can't have children us two until we get the baby room properly furnished and the safest crypto op is one that never finishes.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: to quote that film i reviewed recently, "what do they want for their lousy 35 cents ? to live forever ?"
mircea_popescu: if ~you~, joe, leak bits, then you, joe, are responsible, and you, joe, pay for the fix. not the fucking cryptosystem.
mircea_popescu: but there shall never be a systematic solution for tactical failure.
mircea_popescu: 4096 is the largest power of two which makes a key that is incomputable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because it finds itself at a natural cutoff.
mircea_popescu: in any case, entirely incomparable items. yes, people do dumb shit all the time. but this doesn't mean people doing the right thing should do it once and wear a vest "to make sure".
mircea_popescu: whereas 2 digit year is based on "we never heard of last century"
mircea_popescu: the "two digit year" thing is incomparable to the 4096 bit thing, because the 4096 bit thing is backed by "the whole universe, if it set to computing, still wouldn't EVER get even close to breaking a key".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, and that's the discussion here. if it's costly in excess of utility then the WHOLE thing is broken, and "fixes" in the sense contemplated merely further the breakage.
mircea_popescu: ie, currently they don't exist. later on, they will. later still, they'll break. laterer yet they'll be replaced.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they can be replaced like any other man made item.
mircea_popescu: now, the above is an opinion you or anyone is welcome to hold, like any other opinion. i however don't hold it.
mircea_popescu: and in no case "rsa would be worth using with longer keys"
mircea_popescu: the point remains : if what you are saying it's not practical to change keys (ie, that the per-op value add of key is less than the per-op value lost to suspected leak) THEN therefore what you are saying is "rsa is not worth using"
mircea_popescu: which is what's contemplated here. "oh, changing keys (ie, buying house) is impractical. therefore, let us take out mortgage (pay a little evert time we use key), because it's less affordable but more accessible and the woman is too dumb to understand the difference and we're too castrated to not let her run the household)
mircea_popescu: if you can't afford the house, you can even less afford the mortgage.
mircea_popescu: understand asciilifeform : if you can't afford to buy a house in cash, this means YOU CAN'T AFFORD THE HOUSE. period. go sleep under the fucking bridge. and no, the fact that you ~could~ get a mortgage pay monthly DOES NOT!!!! make it now possible.
mircea_popescu: if THAT isn't practical, then sure as fuck larger keys aren't practical.
mircea_popescu: but that is practical to the power ^1, whereas thicker keys expensive to ^ of n.
mircea_popescu: if you believe that, the correct solution is to change keys, not to make all the keys randomly thicker.
mircea_popescu: very possible, just don't throw away your old car batteries.
mircea_popescu: so it being the fundamental reasoning, it's ok to have it explicit, but implicit or explicit it ain't gonna budge.
mircea_popescu: so if you're gonna plug, plug the right end of funnel.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but good pipe is finitely good ^ 1 whereas tick pipe is expensive to the ^ n.
mircea_popescu: (honestly me thought the above is the tacit understanding at the base of the effort)
mircea_popescu: because expensive as it may be, it is WAY the fuck cheaper to make good pipe than to make thicker pipe to cover for all the leaks due to it being shitty pipe.
mircea_popescu: which is why we're putting all this crazy effort into proper rsa, ffa etc.
mircea_popescu: yes, but my point here is that it is perhaps a defensible heuristic, but not defensible reasoning, to expect that just because p, q and p*q are coupled in that manner, any application to do with their coupling therefore informs you as to p or q.
mircea_popescu: by encrypting "hola bro" to alf's key and getting $result, i now know a novel fact about alf's key!
mircea_popescu: you know for a fact the encrypted text will be decryptable by the key, yes ?
mircea_popescu: and so the proposition here is that WHILE rsa encryption does not leak bits, nevertheless rsa signing does ?
mircea_popescu: so, you publish a number S, and a pubkey P. the verification consists of doing S ^ P.e and checking that it is equal to the hash of the proposed message mod P.N
mircea_popescu: let us consider the proper signature scheme for a moment here ?
mircea_popescu: this is the wrong side of the exponential and i dun wanna eat it.
mircea_popescu: if you leak bits fix the leak don't make the pipe thicker eh.
mircea_popescu: but the argument for "4096 is not enough" can not be constructed.
mircea_popescu: the argument for not using 2048 is already very far fetched ("but what if someone makes a computer the size of our galaxy, WHAT THEN!)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but still twice the work, however space-time negotiated.
mircea_popescu: in exchange you get two things : you get 2x the size of message blocks (an advantage that is actually a disadvantage as now you're using 1kb udp packets which is i expect margionalkly worse than 2 512s) ; and you get a harder rsa (an advantage which is no sort of advantage, the 4096 rsa is already harder than the extant universe)
mircea_popescu: and specifically re 8192 : if you use that, all the crypto operations take twice as long. this is a certain cost.
mircea_popescu: so : yes, personal hygiene better than periodic holocaust. nevertheless, personal hygiene gotta be done personally whereas "niste copii au venit de la alt bloc" can do the holocausting.
mircea_popescu: that's like... 100 days sorta thing ? why exactly, have they decided the whole thing coming out of the previous attempts was the brief interval of "confusion" before being stomped and so trying to maximize that ?
mircea_popescu: valica make yourself a pgp key if you don't have one an' register it with deedbot so i don't have to keep voicing oyu
mircea_popescu: damn... hey asciilifeform wtf was that article explaining the problem of socializing the costs of communication by never providing negative reinforcement ?
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698837 << in this, as in all cases. except periodic hygiene means taking woman's baby and crushing its skull against a rock now and again. which is to say : hygiene cost is personal, culling cost is socialized. guess what "individual" "agents" are going to choose ? (support material :
☝︎ mircea_popescu: heck, ffa ~should~ probably be distributed as literate code.
mircea_popescu: "for the rabbi, whole world is torah. for the ewe however, whole world is grass."
mircea_popescu: problem is large section of pop doesn't know, i guess.
mircea_popescu: "you wouldn't download a car ?" "why not ?!?!" "because nobody made one" "oh... i guess gotta wait then."
mircea_popescu: makes you wonder how openssl was written in the first place, seeing how they had no openssl at the time.
mircea_popescu: it's mindboggling, you know ? "run openssl" "and if i don't have it ?" "download it then!" "And if i'm on a deserted island ?" "well then you can't crypto!" "sa moara ma-ta ?"