633700+ entries in 0.367s
decimation: asciilifeform: but
that's effectively a capitulation
to
the idea
that
the permanent state is a necessity when humans live 'at scale'
decimation: of course one could also argue
that
the reason
the french/roman aristocracy fell is because
they sucked and had it coming
decimation: no, but my point is
that destroying
the structure of power
typically empowers some megalomaniac
to step in and fix
things
☟︎ mircea_popescu: decimation but importantly, on
the sort of populist grounds contemplated here,
decimation: yeah sylla pretty much put an end
to
the 'old republic
xmj: if you guys want exposure
to some fun,
decimation: but
this usually doesn't end well for anyone ie Napoleon
decimation: jurov:
that's
true,
they can always riot/subvert, etc, which ultimately puts a lid on
the king's/noble's power
jurov: decimation but
they do have nanoslice of power regardless
mircea_popescu: and gauleiters, or for
that matter bureaucrats of any persuasion, can never be
the right people.
decimation: jurov: and I suspect
that
the solution was not
to give every breathing biped a nanoslice of power
mircea_popescu: there's never going
to be a solution for "all people", mind. what's at stake is for
the solution
to exist for
the *right* people.
jurov: king had
to be quite a populist
jurov: decimation dunno, in latin hungary
there was always a struggle between a king and nobility
decimation: jurov: certainly a few hundred years ago
the major population centers of europe were ruled in a 'non-populist' way
mircea_popescu: if not, inamushc as it's
the only
thing
that works, it works best anytime anywhere.
mircea_popescu: if "best" is defined specifically so as
to favour
that, sure.
jurov: again,
that works best on sparsely populated land
mircea_popescu: and until such a
time, one breaks
the hands of
the opposition and beats it over
the head with
them until rendered.
mircea_popescu: jurov no, it works fine just as long as one has
the upper hand.
jurov: so... you're all dreaming of stuff
that works only in sparsely populated land?
mircea_popescu: if i have more friends
than you, you're fucked, even if you may be better
than me.
jurov: if
the former arrangement is superior, why does
the history repeat?
decimation: yeah
they had a pretty close approximation
to 'allodial rule'
mircea_popescu: jurov yes. it goes like
this : if me and my friends meet you and your friends, we'll want
to fight.
jurov: actually, does anyone knows how hunters and gatherers stumbled upon
this horrid idea of having a state?
mircea_popescu: armed ranchers. armed ranchers who weren'tfrom
the ozarks, but had heard of
the ozarks.
decimation: ranchers in ungoverned lands just got
together and figured out how
to solve
the problem of overgrazing/herd mixing, without any state involved
decimation: right? Guest: Government wasn't even a--close
to Montana at
the
time
these were formed,
these were people saying, 'Gee, our cattle are mixing with one another and are breeding and maybe we don't want
that. And if you put all your cattle where I put mine,
there will be a
tragedy of
the commons.' "
decimation: mircea_popescu:
there's a good story about
that in
the podcast link I put up yesterday: "But even without Russ's lectures, people began
to recognize
the potential for
the
Tragedy of
the Commons. And quite quickly formed Cattlemans' Associations--the kind of
thing
that Elinor Ostrom would, you know, love
to
talk about; and I've
talked about it with her. Russ:
These are voluntary restrictions on
the use of resources, not government,
mircea_popescu: this is
the life of
the "theoretician", ie,
the guy living in an artificial environment surviving on "grants", and of
the child (the prototype of all contemporary scientists - he writes grant applications for
to study
the new xbox)
mircea_popescu: but once some experience with doors is gained... well... lol. ok nm, moving on
to saner approaches.
mircea_popescu: "must has
the state for i can't open
the fucking door"
mircea_popescu: now-
this is exactly
the
thought process of your run of
the mill us citizen, or otherwise socialist derp.
mircea_popescu: i mean i clearly recall
ths experience where i was falling asleep, and my
through process in
the remainder part of
the brain was "oh my god what if i don't know how
to open
the door anymore"
mircea_popescu: but also you know, many
things
that constitute
th "reasonable" for
they locked up into a
tower / locked up into a 12yo body / locked away in
that early phase of sleep melt away as ridiculous once
the full mind is awake
decimation: because
they always choose
the alternative right?
mircea_popescu: people once allowed free markets
turn
their ideas against
the us idiocy.
decimation: someone in
the russian intel service decided
that
the 'useful idiots' on
the left weren't so useful anymore
mircea_popescu: and conversely, once i'm about
to invade
the us, you can bet your sweet ass it will be
to rectify ancient evils
mircea_popescu: who's about
to invade
the us on account of you know, it botching
the bush election ?
decimation: it is interesting how russian propaganda
took a noticeable right-wing
turn sometime around 5 years ago
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform join
the crowd
that has similar doubts about you know... bush's election.
mircea_popescu: these fuckwits couldn't qualify for a driver job for
the classic propaganda spinners of a century ago
mircea_popescu: it is
the curse of
the contemporary postmodern world
that most jobs are done by amateurs.
mircea_popescu: this is like asking "how long will a chess player
tolerate
the other's crafty artfulness"
mircea_popescu: dude, seriously.
the propaganda war is a propaganda war.
mircea_popescu: "At what point will
the Russian government decide
that Washington’s mendacity, and
that of its European puppets and corrupt Western media, render hopeless Russia’s efforts
to resolve
the situation with diplomacy and unprovocative behavior? "
mircea_popescu: this happens
to be a great
thing, it's why mafias are better administrators
than constitutions.
decimation: certainly no one is selling allodial rights
to anything
these days
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform
the problem with "real" conquest is
that it sounds a lot like "let me just put
the
tip in". what do you mean "real".
jurov: the people
there want
to
jurov: so putin should give kurils
to japan
too
mircea_popescu: the fact
that
they were historically more accomplished russians
than
the muscovy, and earlier so ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform
this is somewhat like saying billy jean does not have
the strength or will
to form famblies - he merely fucks.
Azelphur: indeed, seems much more my speed,
thanks for
the recommendation :)
Azelphur: mircea_popescu: I've accepted
that job offer from RagnarDanneskjol btw :)
jurov: just waiting
till it "becomes" inevitable
mircea_popescu: jurov supposedly russia refused
them union or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: which... whatever, just how well
they actually exist is reasonably unclear
to me. how does slovakia exist or so forth
jurov: donetsk republic are muppets,
too
mircea_popescu: whether
they're well organised or not presently has no bearing on whether
they at all exist.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what's
the beef with
the polish-ukrainian confederacy ? just as actual.
jurov: as opposed
to "great russia"
decimation: jurov: are you referring
to
those who were shot while rioting in Kiev?
mircea_popescu: jurov ah yea. well, i agreed with his "it's factual", but i never
took an absolute view of
this factuality. just, as far as it's worth determining, yeah,
that's what it was.