512800+ entries in 0.32s
Adlai: in zindell's scifi,
their best
tech for copying - renders
the organ being copied incapable of supporting further consciousness
trinque: one's
talking about identity,
the other being
trinque: talking at crossways I
think
trinque: all
that matters
to whichever me is me, is uh... me
trinque: asciilifeform: seems like you're
thinking from an imaginary 3rd person perspective
trinque: each is distinct
to itself
trinque: however a copy of you would be distinguishable
to you
trinque: asciilifeform: right, indistinguishable
to you
nubbins`: coupled with hypothetical "suppose
this strawman was ME"
type clauses
nubbins`: but it's really just runaway
thoughts
nubbins`: there's a large chunk of
the book
that could be misidentified as schizo by
the unqualified observer
☟︎ Adlai: and it's a stretch
to say
that professional actors are schizophrenic, although many of
them do seem
to fear zoltan
trinque: the extent of
that experience will not expand when you duplicate me
trinque: can I
tell you what it feels like for me
to
type
this?
trinque: but saying
that is distinct from saying it doesn't exist
trinque: asciilifeform: well yeah, I
think defining self is meaningless
Adlai: ah,
that word again
nubbins`: you apparently see at comic-con
type events a lot of people who have an "other self"
Adlai: well, you do become 'less yourself', until
there's nothing left... although it's a more complex process
than just cells dying
☟︎ jurov: this is describing whatever is happening in
the brain
jurov: when you're
telling a story you're doing it
to some purpose
trinque: jurov: hm, seems just like what one does
telling a story
to another
jurov: heh
technique. can't get any simpler
than
trying
to describe what comes
to mind
trinque: as opposed
to
the right practice
jurov: "Contrary
to recent general belief, virtually every human can quickly and readily learn
to "get pictures" in his mind's eye,
thus becoming able
to do visual
thinking."
Adlai: not really insisting, but
the wagon is not moderate
trinque: it is probably utterly american of me
to desire
the right
technology
to experience such
things
trinque: shapes would form in front of me
that corresponded
to concepts, or so it seemed
Adlai: literally, psychedelic = manifesting
the mind
trinque: found
thoughts escaping out into
the
things I was seeing around me
trinque: seems like it messed with whatever simulates
the world visually in
the brain
trinque: 2c-e was a hell of a journey once upon a
time
trinque: Adlai:
that one's on
the list for when I can
take a long enough vacation
nubbins`: jurov classic explanation of LSD action is
that it removes
the filters
that your brain normally automatically applies
to
that stream
jurov: i'm all for moderation. not immerse yourself in it, just be aware of
the stream
nubbins`: i had a roomie who did
this with moderate success
Adlai: the idea is
to build a habit of doubting whether you're awake
nubbins`: eventually
the habit will cross over
trinque: I run a business,
too reactionary atm
nubbins`: take melatonin, and every
time you
touch a doorknob or a light switch in waking life, ask yourself "am i dreaming?"
trinque: the scenarios
the mind can simulate... I'd like a pill someday
that causes lucid dreaming
trinque: had one where I asked god what it meant
to not exist
danielpbarron: Adlai> note
that you can actually get cevs by doing just
this, if you can keep your eyeballs from moving for ~5 minutes << i used
to do
this when getting lecured by my mother as a child
jurov: it's pointedly nota mediatation in "think of something
that is nothing" sense
Adlai: note
that you can actually get cevs by doing just
this, if you can keep your eyeballs from moving for ~5 minutes
trinque: jurov: also good
to review whatever's slipped in
there while one's distracted
jurov: at least my
theory is useful in practice. just close eyes and watch what's happening, no need
to be bored ever again
trinque steps back from
the lsd flashback, gets another beer
Adlai doesn't (yet) see any use
to
the
theory of consciousness beyond discussing it
jurov: i've
tracked myself many
thoughts back
to
that dream form
Adlai: someone (iirc dennett) lamented
that everybody has
their own
theory of consciousness, as
though
this was a bad
thing!
trinque: jurov: had
the
thought once in meditation
that I was always... hm...
thinking everything I've ever experienced all
the
time
jurov: plus
there is some pattern matching mechanism between
tdreaming and external stimuli
jurov: and where
thoughts come from... brain is dreaming all
the
time,
there are easy exercises
to access
this stream at any
time
Adlai: specifically, "Of
these four forces,
there's one we don't really understand." "Is it
the weak force or
the strong--" "It's gravity."
Adlai: you've never had a
thought spring fully-formed into your mind ?
trinque: attention seems like one
thing
trinque: thoughts do seem
to all compete for attention
trinque: still in my experience
there is a distinction between
that which is
thought and
the singular experience of observing
that
trinque: Adlai: dennett went down
that road
too as I recall
assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 23:04:33; jurov: if you don't do fork but just spawn
threads? what is self
there?
trinque: no subjective experience can
travel across his abstact bridge
trinque: I'd just ask Yudkowski "how are all of you feeling
today?"
Adlai: yes. in such a multiverse,
there are an infinite number of identical 'people', but each one
thinks of itself as itself.
the others are fungible, but
the self is unique.
nubbins`: if you accept
the multiverse as an axiom,
there are already infinitely many copies of
the universe in which
the entirety of states
that
the atoms of your brain will ever arrange
themselves in are precisely identical
Adlai: even if
their 'state' is identical
Adlai: but either way,
they're still separate instances
Adlai: whether
the identical programs on identical hardware ever read from /dev/random is another matter
nubbins`: danielpbarron
the concept of "enough" varies from person
to person!
Adlai: nubbins`: actually, i'd maintain
the same even if harriezer's simulators recreate exactly what happens
to
trinque's brain in real
time
nubbins`: unless you're bringing quantum
tunneling into it 8)
☟︎ trinque: Adlai: yeh agreed
they are distinct
nubbins`: Adlai not
to mention
that in
the very next arbitrarily small slice of
time, each of
those 21 sets of atoms is now in a different state
Adlai: in
the prestige,
the magician does pretty much exactly
this with
tesla's copy-teleport machine
trinque recalls flopping around in front of a couch, saying
to no one, "holy fuck,
this is me!"
nubbins`: and much realer
than rololol's basilisk
☟︎ Adlai: trinque: let's say harriezer has a 4d scanner, which he uses
to capture
the entire state of your brain, down
to
the atom. he
then simulates
twenty copies of
this brain, each in its own simulated universe. even if you believe
that
there would now be 21 conscious
trinques,
the other
twenty would be distinct from you. kinda like finding out about an identical
twin
that was separated from you at birth.
nubbins`: fair warning,
that's a one-way street 8)