473100+ entries in 0.305s
justJanne: The private monopoly will have an incentive
to provide
the worst service possible, at
the highest possible price.
jurov: depends, some. but
the is not
the problem
justJanne: And? Were
they replaced by private competition or a private monopoly?
danielpbarron: that can't be
true, and only appears
to be because you use
the united states as your example of
the alternative
justJanne: But a governmental monopoly is always better
than a private monopoly.
justJanne: If
the government rents a
train for
that (like Hitler did,
the companies profited heavily) or if
they own
them (like
the GDR did), changes nothing.
justJanne: That is not a part of
the discussion.
danielpbarron: even if
they are sometimes used
to haul off political dissidents?
justJanne: I don't care if
the government owns
the
trains, as long as
they are 100% on
time, cheap, and fast.
danielpbarron: i
think
the key words in
that story are "US investor"
justJanne: Every. Single.
Time. A governmentally owned institution got sold
to a US investor
they either closed down 2 days later, became shit, or just expensive.
☟︎ justJanne: Now Deutsche Bahn is slow, never on
time, expensive, and not much more profitable either.
justJanne: Then
they went
to stock market and became a private company.
BingoBoingo: Eh, Monsanto's no so bad.
The only problem with glyphosate is it doesn't always kill plants dead enough.
jurov: somehow, nothign came out of
that
justJanne: Reminds me of Deutsche Bahn. A large railway company. Everything was fine, perfectly on
time, cheap, profitable.
jurov: mats, you're not
the first nor last fantsaizing of system without "govt involvement"
mats: cost of living being high or wutever is immaterial, i
think.
justJanne: And, as you stated, you deserve
to be punished for being born here.
justJanne: If you want, you can move
to
Togo, or Monsanto City, or
the Bahamas.
jurov: so it does not make sense
to argue either way
danielpbarron: justJanne,
the point being,
there are more solutions besides "let starve
to death" and "steal from everyone
to keep
them alive"
jurov: no mats. i'm saying you're going
to be separated from your money either way
justJanne: Because
they played before 59%
taxes for others.
danielpbarron: justJanne, I'm all for keeping people alive
that would have otherwise starved
to death.
They just gotta be humbled by
the experience;
they aren't entitled
to
the help.
mats: jurov: you addressing me
there with
the quote?
justJanne: And if you break your leg and can't work for a month, you starve
to death.
danielpbarron: it's a population
that is still only a couple generations off from having
the crap kicked out of it
BingoBoingo: Nah, go
to Ferguson.
They have community solidarity!!!
justJanne: If you want
total anarchy, go
to somalia,
they live it.
justJanne: It's not a childish fantasy of it's
the currently best working system.
danielpbarron: i don't
think anyone here is
taking
the side
that
the U.S. is a good example of how
things should be
justJanne: The median German pays less money for health care
than
the median US person.
BingoBoingo still imagining
tumblr folk brewing
their own Laudnum. If opiate abuse is already straining
the fiat world so...
mats: its
time
to give up
the childish fantasies and carefully reexamine your beliefs
danielpbarron: so instead of making [not enough money],
they will make 0.
mats: you're high if you
think setting a price floor in a market doesn't unduly affect market conditions
danielpbarron: justJanne, a minimum wage prices
the cheap labor out of
the market (the company will prefer not
to hire
them at all)
justJanne: Minimum wage doesn't hurt
the market.
mats: you follow? let
the market set
the conditions.
mats: would rather
take it
than work at McDonalds for just shy of a
thousand bux a month
justJanne: A minimum wage might encourage
the company
to actually be more efficient.
justJanne: So, it's better
to provide straight out subsidies
than
to have minimum wage?
mats: folks in various programs draw $300-600/mo in govt kindness, and being worthless as
they are,
mats: this is exactly how it is in
the US.
justJanne: it is sad because under your assumptions
those people shouldn’t work at all
justJanne: sadly,
the workers make nothing more
than basic income from it
justJanne: yes,
they can
transport a package for 20$ across
the continent over night, and make a profit.
justJanne: in
the place where Deutsche Post DHL has its main business:
mats: because
they are responsible for last mile delivery in many cases.
mats: without junk mailers, we'd be paying several dollars apiece just
to send letters. DHL, FedEx, ... simply couldn't exist without
the USPS in USA
justJanne: let’s
talk about different, benefitial monopolies.
mats: lets use
the US Postal Service as a model. something like 200 junk mailers are responsible for pumping $billions into
the
thing, and
they pay a pretty penny
to be able
to shit in your box at commercial rates (in US, cost of letter is $0.49 -- junk mailers pay 5x
that)
danielpbarron: the situation would be so entirely different as
to be impossible
to compare
justJanne: I wonder how you’d do without
the people
taking away your
trash,
the people putting out
the fires,
the people cleaning your streets
justJanne: ah,
the good old "I can live in a cave" defense
danielpbarron: no, I can work and live despite
the people around me
justJanne: and
the same way
the other way round
mats: shall we
talk about monopolies
that benefit
the commoners?
justJanne: you can only live, and work, because of
the people around you
danielpbarron: justJanne, people who fall on hard
times should be compelled into slavery by
their more productive neighbors;
they should not get
to
treat
the whole community like
their undeserved slave
mats: somalia's not so different from
the rest of
the world. quite a bit ahead of its
time, really
jurov: mats leave
that
to billg
mats: where
the fuck are you going
to raise capital for basic income in somalia?
jurov: danielpbarron: since you so hate
taxes
justJanne: and
then you have a highly competitive, almost unrestricted market for
the rest
jurov: danielpbarron: so you get
to keep all your money, i ask again?
justJanne: the idea is
that you have basic life just enough for everyone available,
mats: nordic model works because you live in a universe
that appears utterly detached from economic reality
justJanne: although,
tbh, when watching politicians speak, you ask yourself who is
the larger liar
mats: you want free
trade, but no monopolies or oligopolies.
danielpbarron: you know star
trek is a work of fiction, right?
those were all a bunch of professional liars
justJanne: with a combination of free
trade (think Quark), and basic life enough for everyone
mats: trinque: its good stuff, i've watched every ep prob a half dozen
times
danielpbarron: no wonder you
think
this can work; you saw it work on
TV!
justJanne: mats: DS9-Star
Trek is pretty much real.
trinque: mats: goddamn when jayne
tears up over his very own riot
justJanne: mats: Star
Trek is heaven, and an amazing solution. Although I’m
thinking DS9 Star
Trek, not
TOS Star
Trek
jurov: justJanne: do you know what
this nordic model did
to one Eric Naggum?
mats: yer a leaf on
the wind
trinque: I'll prefer my firefly class vessel
thank you
mats: 'star
trek' is a hell for some folks.
justJanne: there are some laws: (a) every insurance has
to provide a basic plan for
the same price, (b) everyone has
to have at least
this plan, or more
danielpbarron: except it's a very specific shot as per what
the normal people voted on
mats: its a beautiful notion. its also not going
to happen unless we go post-scarcity, upon which we will revisit
the whole
thing
mats: i get
that you grew up in a soft place, and believe all folks deserve a fair shot at doing whatever it is
they feel
trinque: so you just breed an irresponsible generation of fools and somehow
those same fools don't inhabit
the govt and make sure everyone has savings
danielpbarron: right but how does it include
that if it's
taxes?
the government forces you
to have a savings plan?