log☇︎
444100+ entries in 0.299s
asciilifeform: decimation: adding any hardware at all will raise the cost to where we no longer have anything over the phoundation.
BingoBoingo: decimation: Realtive to UTC, yes. I live about a minute in a half to UTC's future
decimation: unless you just want to give into ntp
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al were contemplating a surrender to ntp even.
asciilifeform: right now i don't know how to help the pogo problem.
asciilifeform: i possibly have a scheme for this. but it won't help pogo, because this is no longer bitcoin
decimation: BingoBoingo: can you use your winding to predict the sunrise
asciilifeform: to have the concept of difficulty, nodes only need to know that time has passed, using a timebase that 1) is independent variable from aggregate hash 2) is prohibitively expensive to manipulate
BingoBoingo: <decimation> easily achieved with stopwatch and gnomon << This leads you to my world, where my mechinical autowinding watch is always perfectly accurate because I declare it so
decimation: you mean modifying the bitcoind to accept wider windows of blocks?
asciilifeform: my argument was that this apparently-unsolvable problem can be solved
decimation: or we cannot build a trusted network of time sources
williamdunne: From the looks of things, S.MPOE used to have a thousand BTC or so volume per day
decimation: and there's no way around it, if actual human cannot set
decimation: well, if that were a hard spec I would agree, need txco or ocxo
asciilifeform: not from under the bed of the gurlz mircea_popescu picks up and pogopregnates ☟︎
decimation: yeah but these aren't launching into space
decimation: yes, but that's conditional
asciilifeform: because there is no other known way to do it
asciilifeform: in so far as you, i, and every other fella on the net wants to know 'what second' it is 'right now', we are dealing in usgtronics
decimation: I guess I just can't see 'we need to sun' to be a huge limitation on any human endeavour
asciilifeform: it cannot see the moon, or the stars
decimation: but quite separate than 'we depend on time'
decimation: aye, that's a problem
asciilifeform: pogo cannot see the sun!
asciilifeform: the sun is almost literally blinding decimation, making the problem look far easier than it actually is for us
asciilifeform: but say they lived underground, and could not.
asciilifeform: because they can all see the sun
decimation: 'dude just tell us how to set our clocks'
decimation: what's the use of 'bitcoin outside of humanity'
asciilifeform: that is, massively resistant to organized diddling
asciilifeform: just needs to be 'outside' to the same extent bitcoin is (or naively appears to be)
asciilifeform: decimation: 'outside of humanity' is a tall order. and not what anybody was asking for
decimation: sure, he could do that
BingoBoingo: decimation: Astronomical time is probelematic in that we do not know if LizardHitler mothership can subtly tow sun a few miles or give the moon a push
decimation: time is absolute, space squishes and streches to nail to its strictures
asciilifeform: and i don't expect everyone to grasp it immediately
BingoBoingo: As far as I can tell time does not exist other than as a projection perpetrated by the brain
asciilifeform: it is fiat if i can't see the sun and rely on the kind to tell me
decimation: you were the one arguing to ditch leap seconds
decimation: asciilifeform: how is 'mean solar day is split into two parts; divided into 24 peices' fiat time?
asciilifeform: (yes, decimation will teach you to tell epoch time within +/1 1000 by using the stars and moon. that does not change the essence of the fact that global epoch synchronized by machines is a fiat - specifically usg - creature)
BingoBoingo: Yes, even with the Romans fiat time. But poerverted like now dollar fiat time. At present still enjoy 1934 dollar fiat time
asciilifeform: we haven't invented non-fiat time yet
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it was always fiat time
BingoBoingo: Leapweek would purely put USG time in the realm of clearly fiat time
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for ben_vulpes with note: welcomed me to #b-a
solrodar: !rate ben_vulpes 1 welcomed me to #b-a
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The time nerds burn the... Well QuickTrip and CVS were done so I guess WalMart
asciilifeform: to thwart 'financial terrorizm!!!1111'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and if they decide that 'national s33k0000r1ty' requires a leap week ? ☟︎
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ... << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what << How often? A minute over a century and ignoring should be fine
scoopbot_revived: S.MPOE: Trader's Delight. http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/08/s-mpoe-traders-delight/
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:32:00; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193615 << this is a hollywood fiction. "the strong, silent type". not found in nature.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193979 << mircea_popescu misunderstood my point entirely. which was, that it is possible to have arbitrarily original ideas in, e.g., mathematics, while being certifiably worthless at 'making phriends and influencing people' ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: solrodar: and how do you know that they are only used in keystore base class ?
solrodar: it sees their implementations but it doesn't see calls to them via the virtual lookup mechanism
asciilifeform: solrodar: your tool doesn't see virtual functions ?
solrodar: they don't appear to be in the clang output
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:19:24; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193532 << no one can force them to know it was doxxed, either.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193951 << it's why they produce incompatible ones regularly. because no way to know if it happened or not yet, save for passage of time ☝︎
solrodar: the one thing which is missing which you asked for is virtual function calls, which are only used in the keystore base class
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:15:23; mircea_popescu: otherwise, nothing keeps you from keeping your own time.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193950 << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what ☝︎☟︎
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:15:17; mircea_popescu: owner of node may choose to depend on it
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1193949 << virtually all of them do, however. whether ~i~ choose to run ntp or not does not change the fact that the bulk of the network (including - though i can only suspect! - the mining bulk) does. ☝︎☟︎
solrodar: yeah, it's just a list of regexes, you can change them as you like
asciilifeform: would like a way of adjusting this
punkman: btw aren't all those stacked "using namespace std;" "using namespace boost;" statements a bad idea?
solrodar: then cut out nodes with very high in-degree which appeared to be low-level functions
solrodar: started with the standard library
asciilifeform: where did the filter come from ?
solrodar: just remove the filters
asciilifeform: how did you even choose what to exclude ?
asciilifeform: gotta have those.
solrodar: you can have every token
asciilifeform: in that tree.
asciilifeform: i want every token
solrodar: because if you include all the low-level functions and bignum classes and so forth in the graph then it'll be 10 times worse
asciilifeform: thank you for the effort, solrodar
solrodar: I'm already pulling the graph into a script to do some filtering
solrodar: at this stage the only extra effort is to output it in sexpr format rather than dot format
asciilifeform: solrodar: might wanna ask mircea_popescu if he will award the prize for this item, which is not what he asked for, before putting in serious effort
solrodar: or you just want the data to experiment?
solrodar: so if I provide the graph in s-expression format with instructions, do you have any specific plan for visualizing it?
solrodar: looks that way
asciilifeform: and so i'm not holding my breath waiting for it to get done by anybody.
asciilifeform: this is probably more than 1 btc worth of work
asciilifeform: i don't need the garbage that comes out of codeviz or those other 3
asciilifeform: i can use that tool too, you know.
asciilifeform: because the tool is retarded
solrodar: yeah, I don't know why it doesn't always do that
asciilifeform: there is room for this to be the case everywhere.
asciilifeform: and not half the page away.
asciilifeform: and other thing, if a node is a leaf of only one stem, it should be right next to it
asciilifeform: to maximize space for the arrows.
asciilifeform: idea is, to make the text sit down at whatever angle is needed
asciilifeform: wasn't the idea
solrodar: you can get dot to lay the graph out from top to bottom rather than left to right, but it won't be any better
BingoBoingo: The problem is the thing being modeled, hence the bounty