413700+ entries in 0.268s
assbot: Logged on 27-08-2015 20:37:00; mircea_popescu: mats i don't see a way
to implement his scheme as anything but running dozens of machines
to replace my desktop. which, in fairness, was one of
the proposed approaches back in
the 70s.
mats: systems programmers are
the high priests of a low cult
mircea_popescu: in short : contrary
to what peoiple
think,
there is no actual scope for decisionmaking in systems design.
mircea_popescu: you could in principle
then just have a dedicated process for single
task networking.
mircea_popescu: networking is chiefly multitasking because of
the way it's implemented. but even in systems built
to mt,
there's a dedicated box added outside.
☟︎ mats: how does anybody meaningfully build on e.g. 'msdos' when it has only one operating mode, is purposed for a 'single-task', and doesn't blow up when some level of
the abstraction (that by any reasonable person could be reasoned as multi-task if it is
to do anything useful, e.g, graphics, networking, file system access!!1) has a bug in it?
mircea_popescu: mats i don't see a way
to implement his scheme as anything but running dozens of machines
to replace my desktop. which, in fairness, was one of
the proposed approaches back in
the 70s.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: , it was certainly entirely obscure
to
the
target. one point however was not :
three people,
two beds. so did
they assume
the immature human naturally sleeps in bed with her father or mother ? which of
those
two individuals aren't really separate in
the
thoughts of
the intended viewer ?
mircea_popescu:
http://40.media.tumblr.com/njE9Bw4rvg8ruhzlh5Q7AHg9o1_1280.jpg << all sorts of interesting assumptions in
there, such as "the
toiletries don't matter because we don't like
to
think about
them, being puritans" ; or "even plants need multiple
times
their mass in nutrients over extended periods, but you'll fit your stuff in ONE cupboard alright".
this all doiesn't much interest me, because while obvious
to anyone
thinking
☟︎ mats: shall we boot up a machine for every x server of every gui-level application we wish
to run, because
there is no such
thing yet as gui-level isolation?
mats: i suppose we should define
terminology,
then: what does it mean for something
to be 'single-task'? what abstraction level is non-arbitrary (or appropriate)?
assbot: Logged on 27-08-2015 18:23:50; ascii_field:
trinque: specifically concerning process separation -
the
thing
to do with existing machines is - 1 per
task.
mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-08-2015#1253407 << you blessfully ignore
the part where
THEY CAN BARELY AFFORD A CHAIR. you understand
this, do you ?
the schmucks
that are "ceo"s and whatnot, can barely afford
their own breakfast ?
the reason airbnb HAS
TO exist is because if
they can't sleep on each other's bike rags
they can't "go
to conferences" and prop up
the whole word cloud ?
☝︎☟︎ assbot: Logged on 27-08-2015 18:18:04; mats:
this represents such a regression in so many ways i am unable
to count
them
moonpunter: the computer store up
the block charged less for a 25 foot cable
than
to simply put
the adapter on for me. annoying. came home and immediately bought a $8
tool off ebay.
mircea_popescu: but i'm more curious about how you view
the vietnam
thing in your own experience.
mircea_popescu: moonpunter
that part for sure.
then again his
target aren't intelligent people, nor any people likely
to
try and
think
the matter
through independently.
mircea_popescu: i suspect many laptops are sold in
the manner of printers. except you pay for "service" instead of "cartridges"
moonpunter: i just
think he's ridiculous
to
take offense
to people using a
term he himself introduced. anyone with half a brain would never use a
term like
that and expect an intelligent group
to not dissect and
then
turn it around on
them.
kakobrekla: which usually cost more
than
the lappy itself
mircea_popescu: nobody's sitting
there with an amp meter and a soldering iron.
mircea_popescu: this is what
they do you realise, order replacement parts ?
punkman: mircea_popescu: no repair shop does anything other
than what you normally do with desktops << I couldn't readily repair
this one at home
assbot: Logged on 27-08-2015 17:49:32; mats: you make
this so difficult
mircea_popescu: and in fact no mitigation
thingee out
there does anything else.
mircea_popescu: mats / ascii_field
the dispute you're engaged in looks
to me like a failure
to agree upon
terminology. alf
thinks in
terms of "competent user". mitigation as generally discussed
thinks in
term of "usg-spawned monkey which was allowed at a keyboard for no conceivable reason". in
this later case, hotgluing
the usb hole is a valid mitigation
technique.
mircea_popescu: moonpunter ask an individual
that participated. seven days a week consisted of bad leadership and getting pounded.
mircea_popescu: but hey,
the closed box folks managed
to wrest an entire business space away from
the user with
the shitty screws./
mircea_popescu: no repair shop does anything other
than what you normally do with desktops
assbot: Logged on 27-08-2015 16:06:31; punkman: from
the business in Luxor department.
moonpunter: "overwhelming force" doctrine made us feel more like cops on patrol
than soldiers saving innocents.
mircea_popescu: moonpunter mike is
too young
to know exactly what is
the fate of being in
the us army. how you get bombed silly from all directions while
trying
to follow nonsensical directives.
cazalla: moonpunter, same paul madore
that writes for cryptocoinsnews?
mircea_popescu: and
THIS point MUST be actually verified in practice. and not only once, either.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile bitcoin is still not for
the poor,
they can dance until
they fall over for all
the good it's gonna do.
mircea_popescu: because "everywhere is here!!11" and so yeah,
totally, astro
turfing, "the controversy", "moving
the window" and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: the funny
thing is
that
the usg is so very fucking convinced all
the bs stuff it's powered by works in bitcoin
too
assbot: Logged on 27-08-2015 14:29:09; fluffypony: yeah, but BIP 100 is still
the lesser of
two evils
moonpunter: i find it ironic
that mike hearn is
taking issue with people using
the word "dictators" although he was originally
the one who suggested
that gavin be a benevolent dictator
mircea_popescu: ok,
that inadiquet
thing rules. "i need feminism because i am stupid and white. if i were black i'd need rakim on a horse."
mircea_popescu: and jesus god
trilema comments are something else. at
the same
time
there's a woman
telling me how incredibly right i was, and some derp
telling me how incredibly wrong ~i'm going
to be~. pointless and witless on parade, neverending, eternal.
moonpunter: i just uploaded it
there a few minutes ago. probably have
to wait a bit.
kakobrekla: as for
the search, i know of at least one reasons
that it should be resynced fully
assbot: Logged on 27-08-2015 17:26:30; mats: it seems log.b-a is dropping stuff, i can't find
things from e.g. 02APR2015
ben_vulpes: ;;later
tell pete_dushenski congrats, boss
BingoBoingo: ;;later
tell pete_dushenski Major props on
the cloning effort
thestringpuller: ;;later
tell pete_dushenski Congratulations on
the spawn! :D
thestringpuller: "Processing
triggers for systemd" << i
throw up when I see
this at work
trinque: or
the person sitting with a serial
terminal allowing or denying messages enter/exit
the system
trinque: I can see
that point; we spoke of
the human fuel gauge scenario recently
ascii_field: and
this is discussed in mircea_popescu's 'airgap' article.
ascii_field: trinque: specifically concerning process separation -
the
thing
to do with existing machines is - 1 per
task.
☟︎ trinque: obviously rendering
the
thing mitigated impossible is better.
trinque: but isn't
that right
there in
the word "mitigation"
trinque: speaking as a fool,
this seems like
two gentlemen
talking entirely at crossways. on
the one hand, what do I do with all
these monstrous linux machines I'm already using? (perhaps
tape, if you have nothing else) and on
the other hand, what would I build
to replace
the whole mess
ascii_field: it is of course much easier
to drink shit while mumbling mitigat^H^H^Hincantations
to
the gods
ascii_field: mats: it is possible
to build computer which ~genuinely~ isolates processes. just like it is possible
to build indoor plumbing which reliably separates shitwater and drinking water.
mats: this represents such a regression in so many ways i am unable
to count
them
☟︎ mats: i am mindfucked by your argumentation and have nothing left
to share
ascii_field: 'folks still understandably want
to drink water wherever
they find it, and not have
to walk far
to
the shitter'
ascii_field: mats: picture if you had
the unenviable
task of
teaching africans not
to drink
their own shit. now imagine you show up at
the village and say, 'one must dig latrine pit on other side of
the village from
the well'. and
they answer,
mats: despite living in a world where
there are many computers
to a person, folks still understandably want
to be able
to run more
than a single application per computer
ascii_field: not
to mention
that 'msdos security' - if
the
thing is used as prescribed, single-task, non-networked apparatus - is very hard
to beat.
mats: i'm bowled over by
the
thought
that you believe
that e.g.
the 'msdos' security model is a good idea
ascii_field: mats: i have often named historical examples of 'fits in head.' but you choose
to ignore
them. why ?
mats: because
the way i see it,
the
thing
that you describe maintains fluid form precisely
to resist any kind of meaningful description
ascii_field: why should i let you set
the ground rules ? i understand how
transistor works, how vlsi is carried out; how
to build cpu. why should i accept
the idiocy soup as
the bedrock abstraction ?
mats: why not suggest something
that can actually be modeled
mats: you make
this so difficult
☟︎ ascii_field: (assuming he knows of semiconduction and
that's more or less it)
ascii_field: how many bits of info it would
take
to
teach a martian
to build a copy of
the machine.
mats: or rather, an inability
to
mats: and
then
there's
the much less measurable
thing i presume you're
talking about, which is
those leaks
that result from 'fits in head'
mats: the whole of
the kernel's static call graph, and all possible entry points an attacker can utilize
mats: there is a quantitative approach
that can be
taken, lets say:
ascii_field: mats: what's more, if
this isn't immediately obvious, your concept of 'attack surface' is broken.
mats: saying complexity increases
to attack surface is a simplification at best and misleading at worst
ascii_field: and by 'understand' i mean - if necessary -
to recreate from piles of atoms sorted by mendeleev
table position.
ascii_field: and you don't get
to say
that i should not wish
to do
this.
ascii_field: everything
that i might ever need
to be exposed
to
to understand
the whole of
the system.