asciilifeform: 1 problem , i suspect, is that keeping secrets is a ~pleasurable~ and addictive dope, and very often becomes a satisfying but entirely pointless substitute for actual work
asciilifeform: i guess my problem is that i can't picture any end of this road that doesn't resemble ck-kpss and 'senate intelligence committees' etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: with hygrometer at 80% mark where i sit, i would also like some sahara air. but prolly not for perma-habitation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we, also, expect some wet in air. hence why mircea_popescu in cr not in sahara.
asciilifeform: just as 'voodoo from a distance' pre-dated the ballistic rocket etc.
asciilifeform: lacking an actual bitcoin , did not stop folx from playing pretend, naturally.
asciilifeform: '...Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal...' etc☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: people aren't exactly entirely not hermit crabs... outside of sea divers, orbiters, etc we generally don't carry oxygen around, but rather expect to find it in immediate surrounding like the crab expects his food.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand they ain't ants, they are wired for 'food is to be looked for in immediate vicinity, when hungry'. think 'grasshopper', not 'ant', in aesopian terminology.
asciilifeform: ( then -- change of management -- and not . )
asciilifeform: for the most part, 1980s crapple soft ~actually ran~ on the ppc iron. and for a few yrs into their intel product line, ppc proggies -- also ran !
asciilifeform: observe that some comp makers tried to maintain similar promise to customers -- whole reason why crapple outlived the 1990s, they spent astonishing effort on transparently emulating first their obsolete 68k , then ppc
asciilifeform: aha, mircea_popescu earlier posted some serious crabs
asciilifeform: but point is, they were 'embedded system', 'all that is mine, i carry with me, said the snail'
asciilifeform: 1980s nintendos , fed their old cartridges, still work today. ( and when not work -- there are even folx to repair'em. ) i had colleague who had an entire room of these.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'll admit that i'm utterly innocent of consolism, with the exception of 1 occasion where i purchased an ancient 'virtual buy' to cut, with hacksaw, apart for the optics
asciilifeform: it's more or less the 1 and only thing console maker promises to the buyer. ( otherwise buyer would buy a comp )
asciilifeform: Mocky: i wouldn't put it past microshit to fuck up even this. but in principle yes.
asciilifeform: people like to laugh at nintendo, but that's what the actual hard-engineering solution to the problem of dynamicism looks like. e.g. FG src ~will~ run on every FG, and if in any case it is found not to, ~that unit~ is defective and to be immediately replaced. just like nintendo that wouldn't run 'mario XVIII' or whatnot.
asciilifeform: not being euloraist, asciilifeform does not know why he quit -- was it because he ran out of iron feedstock ?
asciilifeform: ( before laughing -- consider, the 'games console' people came to this train stop long ago, in 1980s. because really that's the only way to actually deliver on the demand of 'fully static, depends on no variables under control of outsiders ' )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly tangentially, have you ever been tempted to distribute eulora as a physical device ?
asciilifeform: the desired word is 'to put on solid foundations'
asciilifeform: 'explain' is muchly the wrongest possible word
asciilifeform: how the fuck do i even say обосновать in engl
asciilifeform: speaking of 'explain' in ~your head~, not to hypothetical heathens
asciilifeform: sorta why asciilifeform pushed ave1 to cut down the gnat libs.
asciilifeform: reproducible bins are The Right Thing, but it is impossible to explain ~why~ outside of the context of hand-auditability.
asciilifeform: try 'dynamicing' and yer bin simply won't run.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the correct pill re 'dynamic' is simply to cut the dynamic loader nonsense out of cuntoo once and for all.
asciilifeform: the other pertinent fact is that we don't have 'eternal' bins until we have a pinned-down kernel, and the latter requires pinned-down iron.
asciilifeform: as it currently stands, nobody can reproduce ~any bins.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that so far, at least as visible from my tower, i've succeeded in this. whereas if i had distributed the whole kit in february of 2016, to kako et al, chances are that wouldn't.
asciilifeform: it is specifically ~not~ meant to be modified and used as building block by folx who aren't asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: the other pertinent distinction is that phuctor is not meant as a building block to use inside other systems. pretty much whole rationale for asciilifeform's refusal to publish whole thing, is specifically to prevent/delay such attempts at use.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i suspect the folx who stole phuctor v.1 and v.2 src discovered, and prolly not much surprise to anybody else, phuctor is not a fully automatic mechanism. it requires asciilifeform's hands , applied on fairly regular basis, to function correctly. sorta like phf's logtron, for instance.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: earlier in this thread i did shed some light re why.
asciilifeform: that's asciilifeform position nao -- i'ma post whatever, because why exactly not. FG src and schem is public, etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if 'who leak to, goats?' then why spend even a penny on effort to pass around srcballs 'in confidence' ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you not see a diff b/w bins that were built under your control, and those where not ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because it is a wholly unnecessary point of weakness.
asciilifeform: trinque: i fully expect that when we finally get the hell off c , there'll be no moar of 'distributing bootstrap bins'
asciilifeform: trinque: this is to be seen as ~open problem~, not 'fact of life'
asciilifeform: the sad folx in microshit-land feel this on their skins ~daily
asciilifeform: sure, but i gotta point out that the proposed win from distributing bins, is illusory.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot'☟︎
asciilifeform: for all i know, somewhere there exists a d00d who tried to build e.g. trb on a vax. and thinks asciilifeform is idjit, because it dun go. how's that skin off my back.
asciilifeform: what is gained from having there exist a drepperized systemd thing ? or what am i missing
asciilifeform: same way as questions of compensation are currently handled in l1 -- word of honour
asciilifeform: the confidentiality of $magicsrc, presumably
asciilifeform: if you dun care for the metaphor -- there's the old and continuing promisetronics discussion.
asciilifeform: crypto is a thing; secrecy has a place, like lubrication oil; but you wouldn't build engine that relies on being soaked in oil at all times, errywhere, steering wheel , pedals and seats included
asciilifeform: organizations that try to keep long-lived secrets, inside groups with changing membership, are more or less the star clowns in the heathen circus.
asciilifeform: relatively compact -- and, more importantly -- short-lived -- seekrits -- are practical. e.g. i send BingoBoingo a qntra item, gpggrammed so as not to get scooped by heathens. next hour it gets published openly.
asciilifeform: i'm struggling and failing to come up with a scenario where it doesn't ultimately land you in the same hot pot of ridiculous boiling oil as usg boils in.
asciilifeform: not the same item at all as 'keep the magic coad from heathens' is it.
asciilifeform: even if the arithmetic is on the surface transitive.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is possible to have confidence with individual people , but imho a mistake to operate on same model with group.
asciilifeform: the illusion that something given to, e.g., 7 people, is reliably in confidence . the next kako or whoever, releases the seekrit at a time of his choosing, for maximum damage, and you get to run around making faces like usg
asciilifeform: '3 can keep a seekrit if 2 are dead'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: i don't specifically know how mircea_popescu proposes to limit distribution of src . but , say, l1-ciphered encyclicals would count
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it gained whatever cost was saved by not screwing around with encrypted downloads or whatever other futile attempts to make water unwet
asciilifeform: did e.g. 'blizzard' take it and make own fraudulent pseudo-eulora ?
asciilifeform: let's rephrase the q -- to date , eulora published client src ; what did it lose thereby ?
asciilifeform: imho dealing in signed material obviates whatever problem of 'am i dealing with human'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure . but what does it then mean to ask someone to keep a secret, if even verifying the keeping of the promise is impossible ( much less 'enforce' ) ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cost -- 'opposability' -- mircea_popescu gives me a magic proggy, nao i have to guard it and be answerable for loss
asciilifeform: at the same time, keeping secrets ~for other people~ is very costly.
asciilifeform: phf: the pov that programmingism is a kind of tard reservation ~specifically because~ of the ease of reusing ancient src, is imho defensible.
asciilifeform: phf: in my particular case, phuctor backend is unpublished specifically because i do not want to encourage people to build on top of it. when i am killed, i'd hope that if folx still feel a desire for a phuctor they will take what asciilifeform ~publicly~ wrote on subj, and make a superior one, rather than trying to maintain the old ball of hack.
asciilifeform: phf: observe that using mechanisms created by dead people is ~very~ expensive, and seldom worth it. and they do not magically return to life by virtue of other folx having a raw copy of sores.
asciilifeform: phf: phuctor was stolen, wholesale, complete with iron it ran on, no fewer than twice. usg still dun have , afaik, a working clone.
asciilifeform: and it has 0 to do with 'million fly eyes', but with simply the futility .
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun have any ideological allergy to 'proprietary proggy', but must point out that the historical examples are uninspiring, pretty much erryone who was specifically trying to win from limiting distribution of sores, did not win, quite the opposite.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: deedbot gives iron pill against disputes of priority, without keeping any kind of seekrit
asciilifeform: i guess the part i dun grasp, is what exactly mircea_popescu would wish to accomplish by making a proprietary proggy & distributing src to anointed folx
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it isn't impossible to keep a seekrit, but proposition re doing so to a proggy that has to run on colo'd boxen ( in many cases outside of festung pizarro, even ) is dubious imho
asciilifeform: sure. but i can picture scenarios where this makes sense, and would like to see the 'unsexy', practical pov of 'how' elaborated in the l0gz.
asciilifeform: let's momentarily suppose this were a good idea. how wouldja arrange, say, trinque's packages repo, to work for members only ?
asciilifeform: hm i must've missed something -- keep what secret
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu , even if one were to build ldd on cuntoo, the only thing it'll ever output on locally-build bins is 'not a dynamic executable' .
