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asciilifeform: actually the relevant mircea_popescu article was another, where he had example of a man who is about to be hanged, but argues that the man who did the crime, is not the one who is bound and led to the gallows

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a pretty good exposition of this, not long ago, in the 'opposed' thread

asciilifeform: well iirc in mircea_popescu's original sketch, the sole linkage between mircea_popescu-royalkey and mircea_popescu-apocryphakey is a wot rating. and wot as we have it is an ephemeral thing, which relies on ability to interrogate living people, and not only living but near to the interlocutor in wot.

asciilifeform: but what is the best way to make permanent record that ' mircea_popescu's i-found-this-in-back-of-desk-drawer ' key is subservient strictly to ' mircea_popescu royal key ' ?

asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu's method , to be used in the battlefield, still needs some means of tying the keys together formally -- and something that doesn't reduce to the horror of gpg's 'subkeys'

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what does the cafe key provide ?

phf: mircea_popescu: correction in this case can come in a form of another vpatch either by original author after the discussion or by anyone who wants to make annotations, etc. in which case the dialog becomes valuable on its own, because it preserves the differences that have didactic value

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: signed-but-non-vtronic snippets are vulnerable to context misplacement.

asciilifeform: phf: recently mircea_popescu suggested a cleaner scheme where everybody has multiple signing keys, and they rate one another, as if they were people. which is probably as mechanized as this will ever get.

a111: Logged on 2016-02-20 22:45 phf: "i, ordained computron mircea lifeform, in the year of our republic 1932, having devoted three months to the verification of checksums, with my heart pure and my press clean, sit down to transcribe vee patch ascii_limits_hack, signed by the illustrious asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes and all saints."

a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 14:46 mircea_popescu: you could technically run a chan off v.

phf: mircea_popescu: i misremembered, because later V in my mind merged with gossipd (http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1376781) ☝︎

asciilifeform: and also from a comment by mircea_popescu that went something like 'i must be able to put finger on a line of code and get names'

a111: Logged on 2015-09-12 20:28 mircea_popescu: which... you know, i slept on this, and it occurs to me that ACTUAL MATHEMATICS might be the perfect thing to implement over V.

a111: Logged on 2015-08-08 04:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in somewhat related nyooz, i've been experimenting with what for now i call 'v' - a very dumb 'versioner' that i've been writing, which eats solely 0) pgp keys 1) patches 2) signatures for same, many-to-many mapping of (2) to (1)

a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 14:11 mircea_popescu: how would this b-a versioning system work ?

a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 14:00 mircea_popescu: there's no reason for this to take a week to do.

a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 13:38 mircea_popescu: one is USE. specifically - hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces. and ima use her as a stand-in for "intelligent and willing to work, but not able to grow a beard".

a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 03:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he still has a point. a) we're careening dangerously towards -dev levels and b) people can't fucking follow wtf is on that list.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was how asciilifeform never learned to properly hand-write

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta why i was specifically curious re what it was that the esperantist ~children~ spoke. the resultant creole, not the original 'megalomaniacal engineer' item.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 19:54 mircea_popescu: phf suppose you make an ai expert system to beat us at go. this gives you two practical options : either include 10gb worth of binary flags preset ; or else have us beat it at go for 10 centuries before it gets to where it plays like a freshly fucked 19yo.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, urk 'ebonics' is perfectly speakable, just like the american variant, but (until recently) 0 written word.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc most conlangists were not trying to beat french, romanian, russian, etc; but to beat commercial pidgins like english, which suffer from severely limited vocabulary and many nonsensical sharp edges

asciilifeform: i hate to distract mircea_popescu from a good gloat re the impotence of engineer, but i'd like to see where he cuts the subj : viable conlang is impossible because no one remotely understands meat well enough? or, useless, even if it were made ? ... or both ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: worx

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/D6w9h/?raw=true

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems like you would need a nonstandard/modified-for-extra-bitness ext2/3

trinque: mircea_popescu: looks like just a mount flag in fstab

trinque: http://xfs.org/index.php/XFS_FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_inode64_mount_option_for.3F

trinque: ben_vulpes: wooo! I'll test that soon as I have coffee in hand.

davout: ben_vulpes: what's the sqlator?

shinohai: neato ben_vulpes (on the lisp V)

ben_vulpes: mod6, asciilifeform, trinque, phf, mircea_popescu, and anyone else tracking vtronic gnashing: i dusted off and rewrote my cl V implementation. i'll follow up sometime tomorrow with more demo usage, and a more robust demonstration of wot-variant pressing. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/juTpM/?raw=true

ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo, pete_dushenski: in re graphite, "meaningfully stand behind their Q" perhaps?

jurov: mircea_popescu: ext4 has 256Binodes, and "The target of a symbolic link will be stored in inode if the target string is less than 60 bytes long."

ben_vulpes: a few minutes of thinking while working on something related did clear this up for ben_vulpes

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:38 ben_vulpes: but if it doesn't show me which patches are lacking sigs, that strikes me as a bug.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 12:09 mircea_popescu: but i can see why this is practically obnoxious.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:04 ben_vulpes: and sure, if .wot is the empty set, return true ;)

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:59 phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes oh im sorry, and your sql is written in what, malbolge ? my my aren't we speshul.

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes why ?

a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 23:48 mircea_popescu: and there's symlinks if anyone wants to alias.

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the bright idea was http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-13#1481832 and the test needed is to check wtf happens if you symlink the txn to the block tree ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:54 ben_vulpes: we digress

a111: Logged on 2016-12-20 13:18 mircea_popescu: btw mod6 ben_vulpes trinque re the whole db/fs etc discussion, anyone recall the symlinks method / proposed tests ?

ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yeah i figured, it's why he has it now

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes dun worry about it, he'll find a way.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:52 asciilifeform: trinque: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg/400px-Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg << them

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:52 ben_vulpes: r sounds like g to them or something

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Of course it can't compete, but it can Pretend!

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587963 . ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:47 phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:22 ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right.

deedbot: mircea_popescu rated phf 4 at 2016/05/17 03:19:21 << his lordship the lord chancellor

mod6: ben_vulpes: i actually love that feature.

mod6: <+ben_vulpes> flow is simply the directed acyclic graph of patches, and is *not* predicated on wot contents. << disagree.

mod6: <+ben_vulpes> pressable being operative word there. << it is inconsequencial.

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:40 ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot

phf: ( http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=experimental&search=_tools )

ben_vulpes: mod6: aha, privkey_tools descends from the low_s and testnet patches

phf: ^ a regrind of http://btcbase.org/patches/funken_prikey_tools ?

phf: ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/patches/mod6_privkey_tools

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: right you are. his - did

trinque: ben_vulpes: what keys, you said you don't have them anywhere

phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate ☟︎

trinque: ben_vulpes: what does the thing do if not exit?

mod6: phf: naw. even mircea_popescu has encouraged me to release it, even if it has warts.

phf: ben_vulpes: well, the point of V that has been celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog. you say something, i make a response, etc. this thread was literally about three different versions, one of them is stale, one of them is unreleased. there's not really an easy way to point to the line and say "oh this is what this does" etc. i claim that the source of this problem is fear. the genesis has to be perfect for all

mod6: i like the idea that you've got 'mod6 & ben_vulpes' in your .wot, and that you hvae 69,000 sigs in your .seals dir, and only select out the ones that match the .wot.

phf: ben_vulpes: well, actually "r" pronounced as "g" is an infamous yiddish lisp

phf: ben_vulpes: see i'm not even sure which one of you is kidding. ~possibly~ neither :D

asciilifeform: trinque: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg/400px-Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg << them ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2016-01-24 03:21 mircea_popescu: to put it in you'll have to sign it. if it turns out later to have a hole, people will negrate you.

phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high. ☟︎

trinque: ben_vulpes: right

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes had a quite complete exposition on my original vtron

mod6: <+ben_vulpes> no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine. << this i dont agree with -- from a technical perspective. it looks to me that girl had "ascii and mod6" in .wot, and when it came across Mr. P.'s genesis .sig, it honked.

mod6: im <+ben_vulpes> just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right. << maybe.

asciilifeform: ( the bug, as mircea_popescu iirc also pointed out, was in the direction of making his vtron ~stricter~, of forbidding entirely legit ops, so not catastrophic)

phf: ben_vulpes: this was a general comment, but the cost of failure is so high, simple things have become needlessly complicated.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu immediately realized what can be done with this knob and wrote, iirc , entire article re same

phf: also http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF099-Grammar_Wizard.gif

ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right. ☟︎

ben_vulpes: and yes, this implies an o(n^2) worst case process in (or (map 'boolean (lambda (sig) (verify 'some_patch.vpatch' sig)))

a111: Logged on 2015-12-21 22:15 mircea_popescu: so /me gives new girl task to press v, half hour ago. other than the url issue above, "hey what sigs should i put in here ?"

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> so long as there is at least one signature for a patch, for which signature v can import a corresponding key, on the basis of the wot, that patch should press. << ftfy.

ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yes

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: fuck no

mod6: mircea_popescu: aha. ok.

mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i don't even want to open that discussion, it's fucking obvious they're equivalent but whatevers.

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in what sense are they hidden??? they are plain text files that YOU PUT THERE

mircea_popescu: mod6 in practice you'd just keep .seals_mp .seals_all .seals_alfmod6 etc and move them around

a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:52 mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.

ben_vulpes: if by "mircea_popescu" you mean "only mircea_popescu's key in .wot"

mod6: and in the context of trb, I would end up with, currently, just genesis.vpatch pressed out in 'output_press_dir'

mod6: so what you're saying... is that i should be able to say "v press output_press_dir SOME_HEAD mircea_popescu"

asciilifeform: but now i gotta try other vtrons! ben_vulpes's , for instance