log☇︎
38100+ entries in 0.023s
phf: OriansJ: good luck with that
OriansJ: phf: Tor-browser paranoid mode for reference ☟︎☟︎
OriansJ: I would like to thank everyone here; for helping me to realize the importance of good documentation.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:36 asciilifeform: ^ bug report to phf ^
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907277 << it works fine without the javascript, i use it regularly in lynx (and occasional exotic browsers like netsurf), but i suspect it will fail in a browser, that both fails to display SVG and then fails to display a link map ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-04-18 16:34 mircea_popescu: and they are that by personal, wholly owned choice. nobody asked them, or told them, or "made them" act in the specific manner of their subhuman nature, whereby "1. if it's not comfortable ~to me~ i'm 'not interested' because 2. i expect there's enough of us animals around so that 3. under the pressure of our wilful ignorance the republic will be forced to change and adapt."
spyked: from where I'm looking, this is precisely http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-18#1802051 ☝︎
spyked: ce the collection of writings of nobody in particular. do you see the dissonance there?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:04 OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907214 <-- don't you find it weird, though, that you say this, and then after just a few lines you http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907238 ? this is not a rhetorical question: you're unimpressed by the recorded 5+yo history of discussions of a group of ~actual people~, and the reflection therein of their ~actually doing~ things; and then immediately you go on to referen ☝︎☝︎☟︎
OriansJ: well; I guess we will have to see. Until then
BingoBoingo: Anytime from minutes to weeks is possible.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: i gotta take off shortly. you will definitely want to speak to mp, whose chan this is. ( he is travelling but i expect will stop by some time in next coupla d )
asciilifeform: ^ bug report to phf ^ ☟︎
asciilifeform: re older asciilifeform items , there is e.g. http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/stats .
asciilifeform: ( phf's www engine, btw. all q's to him. )
asciilifeform: OriansJ: it displays sans js, you simply gotta manually throw in param after the '?' mark
OriansJ: the javascript requirement is a bit odd though for the patches page ☟︎
asciilifeform: there's in fact moar than i can list from memory in coupla min.'s time and coupla log ln. of space.
BingoBoingo: Also http://btcbase.org/patches with projects living in the dropdown menu
asciilifeform: other people have other projects, i was speaking strictly of own thus far.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: then have, e.g., 'v' : http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system ☟︎
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: let the fella eat at own pace, or will choke
BingoBoingo: Then there's the V
asciilifeform: OriansJ: lotsa folx over the years landed in the logs, and thought 'these people sit and philosophize and what'. but plenty of examples of working mechanism , if yer interested to study. http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 for instance is a just-short-of-done constant-time 0-dependency cryptoarithmetizer.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: aite. i'ma lie down again soon tho
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: With the conversation going on I figured it's time to let someone else carry the voicing.
deedbot: asciilifeform rated OriansJ 1 << neophyte / temp. voice
asciilifeform: !!rate OriansJ 1 neophyte / temp. voice
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: quick on the trigger finger today aintcha ☟︎
asciilifeform: how would this apply in re the linked device ?
asciilifeform: 'мажоритарная логика' (majority-logic) in the general case, i do not recall what the english folx call it ( afaik they gave up on it errywhere other than orbit in recent yrs )
OriansJ: I would have expected more code-morph style engineering given that hardware style.
asciilifeform: i do not claim to have invented the method.
asciilifeform: exactly these
asciilifeform: imho this is an absolute ~minimal~ requirement for hypothetical sane irons of any other type.
asciilifeform: ^ i.e. a unit suspected of containing hidden functionality vis-a-vis any other existing unit, can be 'slaved' to the latter , and the outputs compared.
asciilifeform: ( bits known -- that is -- to you only )
asciilifeform: ( and deterministically testable for 'doing what's printed on the box' . you pump a coupla TB of known bits through it, and observe that the expected outs in fact came out )
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if you're interested in concrete approach of asciilifeform to design of iron, i invite to study http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html , item asciilifeform designed & sold ( two runs sold out 100% , possibly in near future we bake a 3rd, on ice40 and photoscintillator , as discussed in logs )
OriansJ: Creating anything I find interesting or useful. Be it through mutual cooperation or single sided self-interest.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: I seek out potential; and I heard there was potential here.
asciilifeform: there's, y'know, a whole net of elsewhere to be
asciilifeform: i cannot resist to ask OriansJ , what exactly then is he doing here ? ☟︎
BingoBoingo: Some futher organization of the literature would probably help with initiations, but first asciilifeform needs to catch a transcription slave
OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed ☟︎☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: i recommend to read the log. you will find that asciilifeform is not the only 1 who finds it effective reference.
asciilifeform: OriansJ is under the impression that asciilifeform works alone ?
OriansJ: asciilifeform: which is fine if you expect to only work alone and have the work lost in the sands of time. ☟︎☟︎
OriansJ: asciilifeform: that is not an effective mechanism of documentation reference ☟︎
asciilifeform: OriansJ: in fact did. this common place , is http://btcbase.org/log/
OriansJ: and have you put all the possible enhancements into a common place for reference?
asciilifeform: from pov of this thread, it is a practical example that sane (i.e. typechecking & boundschecking of ALL memory accesses) iron in fact existed, and even fit in 1980s vlsi (2um)
asciilifeform: OriansJ: you wouldn't want to build a new comp that replicates it entirely. for one thing, iirc could only address 256M , with no possib of expansion
OriansJ: Ok, so asciilifeform, you wish to improve upon it rather than use it?
asciilifeform: largely to experiment with the orig. os , it was an item quite far ahead of what today is taught as 'state of art'. but the iron also imho is good starting point for hypothetical sane iron.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: we don't need cycle-accurate; we just need good enough to be able to write the pieces that will run on it directly ☟︎
asciilifeform: OriansJ: there's an emulator , though not a cycle-accurate one . asciilifeform is (slowly) gathering the seekrits needed for cycle-accurate reproduction of the orig.
OriansJ: ok; do we have software simulators such that people can start developing software for it while we solve the hardware side of the question?
asciilifeform: vendor killed itself via 'enron'-level mismanagement, imploded , so not much known about today outside of specific circles of sane-iron enthusiasts.
asciilifeform: i have the orig. paper docs, they fill a bookcase, but they're actually all mirrored there.
asciilifeform: vendor supplied lisp, ada, fortran, even c, compilers , which interoperated to the point of safely calling proggy written in 1, from another
asciilifeform: full type-tagged memory, ecc, iron gc, etc. in 370k transistor.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: back to my previous question. What actual really useful thing has been created in regards to Sane Iron so far?
asciilifeform: OriansJ: 'open source' folx have a professional disease, where they succumb to temptation of redefining a difficult problem into a non-equivalent but easier one
OriansJ: asciilifeform: well we can either wait for others to perform miracles or we can get off our asses and make them for the world to see. ☟︎
asciilifeform: so patents in no case are the problem
asciilifeform: OriansJ: re patents, there's plenty of folx living in free world, who will piss on whatever patent simply for the pleasure of the piss
asciilifeform: beyond that, afaik state of the art is 'ha, very funny, you wanted what?!'
OriansJ: asciilifeform: honestly, the chemicals and the patents are still a mess in that field plus the never could produce a chip that could exceed 100khz ☟︎
asciilifeform: i'll happily buy it. along with the promised tabletop fusion plant...
asciilifeform: y'mean the 1 that was 'any day nao!' 20y ago ?
OriansJ: asciilifeform: something tells me you would be more excited about Xerox's plastic transistor technology
asciilifeform: OriansJ: what if my definition of 'trusted chip' is specifically where i own the gear and no other people are involved at any stage ?
asciilifeform: i.e. turn '4000 square metres and 400 mil. $' process into tabletop.
asciilifeform: what asciilifeform is looking for, re ic fab breakthrough, is specifically a process that would be to ic what the cd recorder was to cd
OriansJ: asciilifeform: It is a guide for groups of people to pool together resources and setup a 1 micrometer fab to generate trusted chips. Yes it is far from optimal but it is a step in the right direction. ☟︎
asciilifeform: and i do not see anything in the linked recipe to suggest a kitchenable process.
OriansJ: That is what the RISC-V people did with their 45nm chips
asciilifeform: right, the problem is specifically that it's happening somewhere other than my kitchen. ☟︎
asciilifeform: OriansJ: the french already offer 8k (iirc) for 400nm . this is not the problem.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: It isn't about cost because a Custom IC can be done for under $10K today in a 45nm process
asciilifeform: i.e. there is nothing there to suggest that the author has discovered a peculiarly cheap method of fabbing ic
asciilifeform: looking at the 'process steps' docs in the linked page, it seems to be a straight wikipedization of ordinary schoolbook description of ic fab process ☟︎
OriansJ: asciilifeform: sadly they haven't given that yet but let us just assume Industry costs (say $10K) per wafer
OriansJ: asciilifeform: it is a project for open source lithography, it currently is at the 1 micrometer process node and limited to around 1 million transistors at this time
asciilifeform: 1st , i cannot resist to ask, what is/was 'libresilicon' ?
OriansJ: So, perhaps the most important question what has been actually decided about Sane Iron and what still needs definition? ☟︎
asciilifeform: and specifically as illustration of the physical limits of thompsonism, in the abstract
OriansJ: asciilifeform: I am good with that as well; provided we actually bootstrap it properly
asciilifeform: correct. so, proposing to put 64-state statemachine on each pin and look for it? and what, slip the timings so dram loses bits ? this is in the 'smoke' category, logic analyzer will find the peculiar defect, and victim buys another fpga.
OriansJ: Let us just assume the FPGA was not compromised and leverage it for the bootstrap work at this stage (I'll be going to pure LibreSilicon before I am finished but hey to each their own) ☟︎
OriansJ: but let us save some time
OriansJ: asciilifeform: DRAM initialization has a very unique pattern which can be detected very early (long before the DRAM itself is ready)
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if i'm baking e.g. dram refresher -- then quite easily (and very frustratingly, in actual practice did, it is why it is ~impossible to bake a decent dram controller from scratch using fpga that hasn't been 'solved' ice40-style )
OriansJ: asciilifeform: well some of these patterns are universally useful and will exist even in Sane Iron systems ☟︎
asciilifeform: the irons that speak these 'common patterns' -- already sabotaged decade+ ago, no need even to concern with fpga..
OriansJ: asciilifeform: that is absolutely correct; an attacker in Silicon can only put in attack hooks for things that they know about not all possible inputs.
asciilifeform: the puzzler concerns 'general purpose' sabotaged fpga, rather than case where you know what the victim intends to connect and what protocols etc ☟︎
asciilifeform: this goes back to 'knowing something about intended use' , neh