320500+ entries in 0.19s
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on
Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1MiRvWO )
phf: PeterL: right, banks have a kind of wot when
they deal with each other, quantified as collateral against credit exposure
PeterL: Or it can be viewed in
terms of WoT, random guy off
the street has no
trust from bitbet
that he won't doublespend, bitbet has been holding
the coins and
thus has implicit
trust from guy
that he will get paid eventually
kakobrekla: even further, when chinese miners were asked about blocksize it was "we dunno, it should be up
to core devs,
they know what is best"
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 21:25:49; kakobrekla: but 'miners' are zombies, will eat whatever comes
their way and cant count on
them
thinking about anything
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not
to have been possible for
the miners
to agree on
this.
phf: PeterL: i
think counterparty problem is asymmetrical.
that's your collateral is higher
then BoA's collateral when you establish partnership
solrodar: they chose not
to charge it
to
the company,
therefore it didn't count
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise
this, but bitbet has
to date clocked close
to 2k hours of admin
time. and
this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.
PeterL: but would bitbet also extend such
to
their customers?
they seem
to be pretty firm about if it is not in
the block before bet resolves it becomes a donation
to shareholders
PeterL: and
then payment was not late just because it was a long
time getting into block
PeterL: although, I gues accounting-wise you could say you were paid
the day
the
transaction was created, rather
than
the day it goes into block
PeterL: but
that does not stop doublespends?
PeterL: I still don't see
the need for any malisciousness, just somebody holding it in some sort of "side mempool"
PeterL: the fact
that 0-fee
txn eventually got mined shows
that mp is not completely isolated from miners by prb?
PeterL: any miner who wants some extra fee-fees just has
to sweep up all high-S
txn?
PeterL: aha, so
the high-S
thing only proves
the miners don't like it, you would need
to find something
the miners allow but prb does not
PeterL: I guess he could specifically design a
transaction which is not passed by prb, and see if it gets into blocks, which I
think
the high-S
thing was an example?
mircea_popescu: mats
the question under audit's not
that ; not
that it would prevent you from doing whatever.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:40:42; mircea_popescu: why is
that, if
the question's not
too presumptuous ?
mats:
http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it,
the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want
to be in
the position of resolving
this, but i'd be happy
to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:25:50; asciilifeform: is
this not how sport bet generally works ? BingoBoingo ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i didn't
think so,
the qntra piece would have read "fuck vc sybils already".
mircea_popescu: phf whatever people do with
their private funds is
their problem,
the contract still says
the shareholders get it.
phf: mircea_popescu: not from what you just said about you and kako paying out of
the pocket
PeterL: phf,
to me
the listing seems
to say during liquidation shareholders get an even share?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can i relay directly
to miners, or can't i ?
phf: PeterL: oh from ~sale~ you mean. i don't
think
that shareholders have any claim
to sale. since it's a zero asset corporation,
the only movable part is "bets come in, percentage collected, payment sent out". "assets" is
the percentage
that's collected at
the end of month, and immediately distributed
to shareholders. what is being sold is domain/codebase and a negotiation rights with mp for hosting.
that was never funded by shareholders
thestringpuller: interesting how much chaos relay policies cause, whereas some want
to completely change consensus rules
mircea_popescu: this model of (perceptible relay) + (imperceptible miners) is nonsense of
the ilk of meta-nsa-in-the-sky.
PeterL: oh, looked like you left out shareholders on
that part
phf: PeterL:
that is what i said
mircea_popescu: do
they not exactly read "i, asciilifeform, hereby do declare
there's no relay network other
than
the miner's own" ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you not say
the words "mircea_popescu having a notion
that he knows how
to avoid connecting
through
them
to
the minerz" ?
phf: so whatever %1's been collected so far is divided between mp,kako,shareholders with receiver making a call
there, pay outs go
to original addresses, assets are auctioned and
the auction proceeds are split between mp,kako with receiver making call
there
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:39:24; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on
the contrary! ~you~ had
that notion, and appeared
to stick
to it even in
the face of my pointing out
that
this arrangement is not stable, and only
the miners could possibily be running
the show.
mircea_popescu: if more people had at any point
throughout
the intervening
tax seasons stopped and
thought "hey, i made whatever, 100k dollars
this year, of which i'm signing off 60k
to usg - might as well send
tmsr
the 0.1% it charges in
tax!"
then perhaps
the foundation would have enough money and i could just donate it
there as an endpoint.
mircea_popescu: well, i'm not entirely sure it can charge 1% if it doesn't resolve
the bets.
phf: so bitbet has 750.4 in open bets, 742.9
to pay out, 7.5 goes
to shareholders/mp?
mats: jurov, i'm happy
to do
the audit but not act as receiver
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on
the contrary! ~you~ had
that notion, and appeared
to stick
to it even in
the face of my pointing out
that
this arrangement is not stable, and only
the miners could possibily be running
the show.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: iirc originally a chunk was sold,
then sometime early last year or perhaps late 2014
the remainder of
the shares were distributed
to
the principals. iirc i didn't sell much, mostly now and again
to
try and
temper overexcited price action. should be something like .5
to maybe 3mn shares outstanding depending how much kako himself sold.
solrodar: speaking of proceeds, how much of
the bitbet IPO was ever completed?
mircea_popescu: but hey, if
that's above what can be had, whatever, i'll build a shrine
to allah / brothel / whatever out of
the proceeds and
that's
that.
mircea_popescu: phf in general it'd be helpful if other avenues were found from
this sort of situation. in any case it'd be good for bitcoin.
phf: i'm
trying
to compartmentalize where
there's none, ultimately
the whole
thing is a counterparty problem, and only recourse is loss&negrate
mircea_popescu: it's a disease of
the mind
that i don't really
think can be cured, just quarantined.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and don't need a 'speaker for.' <<<
the problem with
the democrat's mind is
that he's been ruined by low effort "success" and so will forever be seeking
this fantasy of a "silent electorate"
to propel him
through a life without labour.
mircea_popescu: so in
this sense, bitbet's coffers ARE mp's coffers, and no separation is
to be had.
mircea_popescu: phf
there's no guarantee offered or even contemplated
that bitcoin is not fungible.