log☇︎
312500+ entries in 0.195s
mircea_popescu: ah. yeah you would. i don't think they can maintain ircd loose network and have it do that.
phf: mircea_popescu: yeah, but then you have to write that logic into a bot. i was hoping that using login/password just kicks the previous account off
mircea_popescu: seems to me xor is just as un-immediately defined on abstract types.
phf: trinque: nope, there's no free lunch. irc force changes the nick, before there's a chance to ghost
mircea_popescu: more importantly, if there's no assumption of machine register underlying, how exactly is it that they can always xor but only sometimes mod ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so how is this wonder of a mod defined so it works on vectors ?
asciilifeform: and feels the pain.
asciilifeform: the basic philosophy is to take the most dangerous knobs and attach broken glass spikes to them
phf: that was my impression since that's how my bouncer runs, and the only time i had issues is when my ssl cert silently expired. but come to think of it, i've not tested it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ada is a merciless thing. e.g., you cannot use two types interchangeably even if 'they're the same inside'; can only take pointers of items explicitly declared pointerable-to; by default, pointers only valid in the context where they were taken
trinque: and that'll just boot the previous instance of "deedbot" if I connect that way?
phf: my ping/pong code was not very good. i reworked it yesterday, but haven't yet enabled on this guy, so if he falls over, it'll be quietly, and we'll know by lack of logs :D
asciilifeform: it is curable tho!
asciilifeform: ada is a civilized lang like commonlisp and there is NOT a presumption that integers are machine words !
trinque: phf: ah that's simpler
asciilifeform: say it's an algebraic type (e.g. bignum)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the bitwise thing works. i have nfi why not used in the example.
phf: trinque: you can forgo the whole nickserv integration by putting password into the irc:connect
mircea_popescu: which they don't make similarly unavailable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform basically they lazily decided "even" is to be tested by "mod", which is unacceptable if they're going to make mod randomly unavailable ; seeing how there are purely bit-logical ways to test for even-ness.
trinque: where I (think I'm) headed is the bot being a separate module. code using the bot would pass the appropriate generic function to call for commands into make-bot
trinque: and I have no idea if I did terrible things, so say so. I'm just some dude reading books on lisp that washed up on my island
trinque: thing knows how to ghost, has your ping/pong code in it (thanks!)
trinque: maybe we can collaborate on getting a bot that, y'know, stays connected to an IRC channel
mircea_popescu: EVEN is wrongly defined is the point.
asciilifeform: it means 'takes up this-many bits REGARDLESS'
mircea_popescu: "and, in addition, a call of a Boolean logical operator and, or, xor, not whose operands are such static predicate expressions, and, a static predicate expression in parentheses." << right there. a xor maxint-1 > 0
mircea_popescu: "So we see that the predicate in the subtype Even cannot be a static predicate because the operator mod is not permitted with the current instance. But mod could be used in an inner static expression."
mircea_popescu: which reminds me of my indignation in 9th grade. THERE ARE TWO COMPLEX CONJUGATES!!11
asciilifeform: re earlier thread,
asciilifeform: what'd be the complex conjugate of l0l ?
phf: it's all bots sitting there unvoiced
a111: Logged on 2016-04-06 12:30 asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf i find myself agreeing with adlai, the way we have it now, the log is in fact near-unreadable EXCEPT in wwwtron. links oughta dump into the chan assbot-style
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446778 << i also agree, i just politely pointed out that the feature is obviously needed, i just don't trust bot part enough yet to put more functionality on it. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: wasn't by any means a practical consideration. more of a "thinking about the compiler of the wetware future"
asciilifeform: as for 'why standard' - it affects the semantics.
mircea_popescu: i can't write sentences with a count at the end saying how many times you have to read them until you get them.
mircea_popescu: a more general and unrelated problem : why should the specific number of compiler passes be set down in the standard ?
mircea_popescu: seems altogether easier for you to not shit where you stand than for us to create a new reality.
phf: that's a platonist right there
asciilifeform: in that respect it has the same downside as eschewing microshit had in 1995.
asciilifeform: sane hardware has no downside other than it not yet existing.
mircea_popescu: now i understand why you expect the foundries to cost billionz! you're outsourcing!
mircea_popescu: "as long as these are securely fastened, an absolute guarantee to no pants shitting can be offered by manufacturer". and yes i used such thjings, but for very peculiar purposes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a ludicrous analogy.
mircea_popescu: listen : the EARTH permits you to do so.
asciilifeform: do i have to justify that also ?
asciilifeform: there is no excuse for buffer overflows to be a thing.
mircea_popescu: reasoning past the faith ?
asciilifeform: we're still at the shit-where-you-stand level.
mircea_popescu: the problem is that it being unbounded, it can't really be hardware.
asciilifeform: we don't even HAVE the toilet yet.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did not say that basic hygiene is a ~stopping~ place, but a starting point.
mircea_popescu: poorest village public toilet still had water implement in working condition.
asciilifeform: integers are MARKED AS SUCH and tested when arithmetizing;
mircea_popescu: and fwiw most arabs'd be horrified at the notion of not actually washing bunghole after defecation.
mircea_popescu: it's still give or take "what everyone else does".
mircea_popescu: your idea of basic hygiene differs from the medieval french only in form, not in substance.
asciilifeform: as in, arrays live with their bounds
mircea_popescu: "all of the same checks, and more, in hardware". what now ? miner core in every cpu, to check for primality ?
mircea_popescu: the predicated types.
mircea_popescu: hey. is it a thing or is it not a thing! stop giving me jam!
asciilifeform: sorta like c 'assert' but you can attach it to ~anything~
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: generally folks will use simple predicates (e.g., 'not equal to 0')
mircea_popescu: and yeah, i get the "doc it hurts when i do this" "so don't do it then" thing. but ...
mircea_popescu: but there's a point here. it's not a bounded problem!
asciilifeform: it is unique, afaik, to ada
asciilifeform: at least read the section about pointer leakage prevention
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> [...] you can declare a variable, where, say, assigning a prime number to it is an error condition in the runtime. which means, yes, a check on EVERY assignment. <<< now imagine the converse type :D
asciilifeform: incidentally, i recommend the 'random walk' article to anyone with even a passive interest in the subj
mircea_popescu: but might be the lowest fruit.
mircea_popescu: i've been wondering bout this.
asciilifeform: phf: yes, but we haven't the factory.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, WHY is the compiler single pass ?
asciilifeform: and if you improve the thing, you break it.
asciilifeform: but there is also a STANDARD
asciilifeform: phf: there are some very obvious warts in the language - e.g., the compiler is one-pass and you end up having to write c-style prototypes for some functions.
mircea_popescu: would the world be better ?
mircea_popescu: if idiocy screamed in the forest where there's no alf the bee-dog to hear it,
asciilifeform: the 'better' is in the sense of 'less screaming idiocy in the mix'
phf: well, incremental improvement on ada doesn't seem like a particularly interesting problem, thing comes with a lineage, wirth's pascal, modula, oberon; ada fits into that ecosystem, so simply going over wirth's research you can find a lot of existing ideas for ada improvements
mircea_popescu: there's no "better" in that space.
PeterL: aha, so if you ditch c-machine then you could do better?
asciilifeform: but we haven't such a thing.
asciilifeform: a properly constructed computer would perform ALL of the same checks, and more, IN HARDWARE
asciilifeform: PeterL: understand, ada is necessary because we are stuck with the idiot c machine.
mircea_popescu: liek that it's a pretty good q.
asciilifeform: has, e.g., predicated types. (which means, you can declare a variable, where, say, assigning a prime number to it is an error condition in the runtime. which means, yes, a check on EVERY assignment.)
PeterL: asciilifeform could you make a "right thing" that is better than ada?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wish it weren't the right thing...
mircea_popescu: and yes, the more i hear about ada the more i like it, or properly speaking the more it sounds like right thing.
asciilifeform: my objection was to 'lisp never tested in Serious Business'
mircea_popescu: so then why are you :)
asciilifeform: i can't argue with this.
mircea_popescu: and it is good that the good tools, derived from 1st, get some battle experience.
mircea_popescu: we'll be doing a lot of the 2nd willy-nilly.
asciilifeform: they are not part of what folks think of as 'software ecosystem'
mircea_popescu: consider what i'm actually saying : it's one thing to solve correctly a well defined problem ; it is another thing to solve well a nebulous one.
asciilifeform: ada tasks, afaik, is the only sane implementation of parallelism where you ~never~ specify explicit thread ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is utterly besides the point, isn't it ? most well made statues were kept in temples, in the dark, untouched and unseen. this doesn't mean they had ergonomic spoons in mass production!