log☇︎
267700+ entries in 0.172s
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if the thing uses opengl, it doesn't care about gpu driver
mircea_popescu: not so, the deps are actually enumerated.
asciilifeform: perhaps because of the dire monoculture of african linux, perhaps not, i have nfi who has been building
mircea_popescu: this thing works. and it works in a very messy environment - gfx drivers, a raft of dependencies, etc.
asciilifeform: there is only 'thus far the users happened to have the correct deps'.
asciilifeform: but there is not, in our universe, actual magic.
mircea_popescu: i dun care what the lines are per se.
mircea_popescu: this thing whereby noob sits down, pastes four commands off wiki, gets working game. every time.
mircea_popescu: ah, to clarify : i do not mean "automake". i mean the process.
asciilifeform: phf: this is also a problem.
phf: hence we have buildroot, equally unsigned, pretty sure ~nobody~ here read all of it, or relevant parts for the build system
asciilifeform: then see what you think.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: go an' try reading the generator.
mircea_popescu: the metaphor breaks down on / depends on not noticing that IT DELIVERS.
asciilifeform: automake stinks, and not a hearty, productive stink, like diesel engines of a maersk tanker, but the stink of liquishit in the diaper of profoundly retarded teenager smearing all over padded cell.
mircea_popescu: if you know what the generator does, what's the problem.
phf: it doesn't satisfy our own requirements of fits in head, it goes through a rube goldberg machine in order to produce a specific build for a specific system. "mac os x? fuck you. openbsd? fuck you". it doesn't succeed at own goal of producing bit identical builds.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: automake doesn't build the gpu driver.
asciilifeform: as trb does.
asciilifeform: distribute with the proggy.
asciilifeform: wanna switch to that..?
asciilifeform: i hear microshit studio is even better at 'allow derps to build
mircea_popescu being the derps in question nine cases out of ten. no fucking way am i going to chase obscure deps on your obscure project.
asciilifeform: this is part 'i just wanted to!' if you like, but in no conceivable universe 'republican standard for code.'
mircea_popescu: on the other hand, it allows derps to build.
asciilifeform: automake works when very carefully used, but the result is a massive turd that is autogenerated, that NO ONE will ever read, and does ???. with 10,001 system-specific #ifdef's.
mircea_popescu: ie, anything that's different from the variety of keymashing they're used to from "work"
asciilifeform: y'know, 'distribute exe' is ~even easier~ on the n00bz and rubes, but mircea_popescu doesn't do this.
mircea_popescu: so far the major problem is irc usage ; and gpg/deedbot a very distant second.
asciilifeform: they will find a way to set house on fire while running ./configure.
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu expects them to compile the game ?
mircea_popescu: well then.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you understand the population of mouthbreathers out there is mystified by webirc page ?
asciilifeform: 'no you may NOT build this on vms and expect support' is the correct path.
asciilifeform: this comes from misguided refusal to standardize the build context.
mircea_popescu: actually ~every project of "battlefield" size seems to end up with a half mb to mb configure script.
phf: mircea_popescu: that's pretty much how it goes. hardwired paths because "fuck automake" or patching ./configure directly or all kinds of variations on the theme
asciilifeform: recall mircea_popescu's '#include must die' thread ?
mircea_popescu: had they properly used automake the problem wouldn't have existed.
asciilifeform: as trb does.
asciilifeform: has to do with program being written by heathens who do not understand that ALL deps must be CARRIED !
mircea_popescu: they hardwired a bad path in there and i ran outof patience before finding the right magic knob.
asciilifeform: has everything to do with it.
mircea_popescu: nah, the retardation making it ~impossible to compile gpg 2."current" has 0 to do with automake.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, there's the primary file, which is your *.ac, which using autoconf generates your ./configure Makefile.in etc. ~those~ can be shipped with project and will work out of the box
mircea_popescu: what it does is exactly this : takes a situation where "fuck 83% of people" and allows them to install w/e it is you're making.
asciilifeform: # is contrary to our usage. Disable this feature.
asciilifeform: here is a sample 2 lines from that config:
mircea_popescu: what i had in mind phf is, automake runs on project, keeps track of every bit of itself that it actually called, then inserts a pruned down version of itself somewhere, so you can ship the software with THAT instead of the whole automake.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, there's the primary file, where you say things "i need a c compiler for this project"
asciilifeform: aha. and most of what generator outputs has 0 to do with particular program.
mircea_popescu: yeah but it doesn't do it by itself. it's just a macro merge thing neh ?
phf: i'm trying to remember what the current name is (which is where community retardation comes from) but yeah, aclocal is where you spec out just the things that you need for project
phf: mircea_popescu: it's already in there
mircea_popescu: phf i wonder if a "prune down to THIS codebase" function would be useful.
phf: automake solves a bootstrapping problem in that common subtrate across all posix systems is "sh", so it's a tcl-like macro language built on top of shell. biggest problem with it (besides the typical communal retardation) is that nobody actually spends any time trying to understand it, before dismissing it
asciilifeform: automake is a rancid pile of shit and my first contact with any project that contains it is to shoot it in the head.
mircea_popescu: phf yeah. i have a problem in that i want to impose eulora as standard for republic code ; but nevertheless automake IS a humongo pile of perl.
phf: trb builds on three systems altogether, and it's still a pita
mircea_popescu: well that's because automake doesn't work in visual studio.
asciilifeform: mod6's trb-builder.
asciilifeform: but is there 'anyway' because the fungus in rms's left ear told him that a build script weighing a meg was somehow ok
mircea_popescu: i dun want this to change.
mircea_popescu: yes, but : currently, the compile process is NOT the most difficult part of "noob getting eulora running". (turns out, interacting with irc is. lol.)
asciilifeform: thing is, 99% of what the thing does is wholly unnecessary for a given proggy.
asciilifeform: and yes all kinds of folks who dun know better think 'i cannot do X without it'
asciilifeform: and attempts various bogus things like 'finding your libs'
mircea_popescu: yes ? and the alternative is what, hand-curated perl scriptsw ?
asciilifeform: and often dwarfs the proggy it is trying to build.
asciilifeform: it is 100K to 1M of mildly variated boilerplate, typically.
asciilifeform: 'automake' is the massive turd that runs when you ./configure .
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/08/21/what-king-do-you-think-youre-living-like-exactly/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - What King do you think you’re living like exactly?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 01:02 asciilifeform: automake is a work of evil, first thing i did when sawing off the mpi lib is to nuke it.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 00:57 phf: "Versions of GnuPG before 1.4.11 and 2.0.16 allowed to import bogus direct key signatures."
phf: i need to patch site icon on that host, it still T
phf: there's also bits (like riscos.c which i think is part of zlib and dotlock*), which i think are imported/updated from external sources
phf: there are some clearly meat-y parts, and then there's a lot of gendered pronounce
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell asciilifeform Not quite.
asciilifeform can never again think of gost cipher without thinking of maslennikov's adventures.
phf: with empty implementation file, and #error don't use this inside
phf: i like how they added a stub for GOST
asciilifeform: (there is a newer and yet-unpublished edition of this.)
phf: which brings line count to 15k
phf: oh "intl" is gettext, so that can be cut too. of course, "nazi collaborators here" disclaimer
phf: estream-printf got a whole blob for testing added including #ifdef TEST and emacs bindings for compile-command to do rapid testing from inside the file. how hacky
phf: zlib was patched up, very minor patches, but somehow it was necessary to bring in example.c "usage example of the zlib compression library"
asciilifeform: it is loathesome and is to die, no exceptions.
asciilifeform: automake is a work of evil, first thing i did when sawing off the mpi lib is to nuke it. ☟︎
phf: none have code, except for bzlib that was brought into the codebase
asciilifeform: where did phf make the cuts ?
phf: asciilifeform: because you didn't strategically apply excludes to things that harbor nazis collaborators, but still should be probably inspected separately
asciilifeform: phf: why is my diff 8M then.
phf: fwiw there aren't any file renames between .10 and .21, but certainly plenty of fluff like that
phf: "Versions of GnuPG before 1.4.11 and 2.0.16 allowed to import bogus direct key signatures." ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: phf: how much battery time won with ^ above ?
phf: goes back to that whole literacy thing, sort of stuck with me..
mircea_popescu: hey, whatever works. tho in my experience apple never made usable anything.
phf: mircea_popescu: i am, i am ashamed to admit it, feel comfortable in the warm embrace of apple's unix boxes, so transitioning out has been slow and painful.
asciilifeform: aha, gut the old box and put in modern chemistry.
mircea_popescu: point is that cells improved significantly in recent practice.