257900+ entries in 0.159s
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so good for you! none of
this is any sort of genius, just systematic refusal of dumbassery.
mircea_popescu: phf imagine if you will,
the beauty of a system where "threads" make no sense in
the first place.
mircea_popescu: ie, "this our lisp os only works on processors with no less
than 8 cores. because we keep all
these
things pre-loaded and ready
to go, and
then every
time you
try
to add we do 16 checks in one
tick. one op mujlti data ftw!!1"
phf: but yes, cmucl in
this channel started because i was
thinking of porting it
to hardware. it's obviously what every lisper wants/tries
to at some point. in order
to achieve it
though, i kind of have
to read and grok and read again
the code
the cmucl code, which is what i've been doing..
mircea_popescu: intrinsic addable-value far exceeds, yes, which is why we're even
talking.
phf: which would be consistent with
the v
threads
mircea_popescu: but because you can read it, you get
to see vendor magic numbers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform
those are not disadvantages but advantages.
phf: mircea_popescu: people basically come
to same conclusion, and
then when it comes
to putting in "2 years of living from inside an os without youtube" balk
mircea_popescu: incidentally,
the
tasks are here in my vierws overstated. linux had
the
tasks as hard as described, and it did break
through, on shittier internet with fewer people milling about. lisp already has c code it can read for many of
the drivers etc.
this is major advantage. easier job
to come 2nd.
phf: asciilifeform:
that wasn't a challenge, i was just disappointed
phf: asciilifeform: oh, i
thought for some reason
they had civilized VOPs and such
mircea_popescu: make a
third, but in
this direction, not in
that, if you will.
mircea_popescu: be all
this as it may,
time
to grow up and stop pretending adult lisp is anything but
these
two.
phf: well, only in a sense
that it's written for it? i'm not sure married is
the right word
mircea_popescu: you apparently don't recall early linux worth
twopence.
phf: i
think one could
take either of
those and
turn
them into real systems,
the way we did with
trb, but it's
the same class of work
mircea_popescu: so
then it seems
to be
that it is an offense before
the gods and an insult
to man when in any discussion of lisp anyone proposes any other solution
than "pick either movitz or mezzano"
mircea_popescu: i mean, is
there some fundamental reason such can't be written ?
that's a problem. otherwise...
phf: movitz and mezzano are common lisp compilers,
they are just shitty ones.
they are good enough
to boot an os on x86, but
they are missing bits (large chunks of standard) because nobody's written
those
phf: the problem is
that
then you're stuck redoing many man years of rewriting cmucl/sbcl in
them
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high
tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long
time and
then one day break,
the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with
the
tradeoff analysis kid"
mircea_popescu: that's also
the reason steam engine wasn't done by greeks.
phf: mircea_popescu:
the real reason it's not been done is because it's fucking hard and nobody cared enough
to spend
the necessary man years
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:58 adlai is incidentally now sober for
the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not
that relevant >>
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219 mircea_popescu: tell you what :
the hardware's
the hardware and
the software's
the shit.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you also realised
the hardware was shit
that
time we went
to olympus and venus asked you
to fuck her.
phf: the
thing
that ascii mentions he'd pay for "cmucl on hardware" explicitly involves ripping out C code and
then doing necessary work
to support some minimum set of x86 drivers like keyboards etc.
mircea_popescu: linux happened in a few years, need i remind you, and
those were earlier, drier years.
mircea_popescu: so
then for shame, all
these dickheads going around holding
their heads in
their hands and
talking about dumb shit while doing no useful work.
phf: well, you don't need C for
that and
there are no excuses
mircea_popescu: now, x86 i can already buy, which of
tll, lelnel don't exist and what's
the excuse.
mircea_popescu: there's
the following parts : hardware, including memory, cpu, disk etc. we shall call
this x86 for short, even if it's a longer story ;
tll, which is a compiler. does exactly same as
the gcc does in linux :
takes lisp code, spits out bytecode ; and finally
the lelnel, which does what
the kernel does in linux.
phf: are you running it on a linux system? because ~if and only if~
that you are you have
to bring something extra into
the picture
phf: it doesn't do anything more
than
that
phf: we agree on
that point, and lisp is capable of doing
this
mircea_popescu: holy hell!
the processor
takes opcodes. you produce
the opcodes.
that's it!
phf: you know dos "com", which was just a flat sequence of bytecodes and when you did foo.com it would just start executing foo.com with
the first byte
phf: programs
that have
to run on linux don't behave like dos COM files
phf: but it's
the whole point!
mircea_popescu: suppose for
this discussion it's already started ; else yes, you need a running machine
to compile your image as we said.
phf: well, but you're
trying
to run it on your linux correct? or we're
talking pure hardware layer
phf: mircea_popescu: problem is
that when you do a execution like ./foo on unix, ~unix~ expects "foo"
to contain certain bits and do certain kind of work
to appease unix upfront.
that work is specific not
to "x86" but
to "linux v 1.1.2, compiled on full moon, by
three blind monks"
phf: sbcl/cmucl already compiles whatever code you ask it
to
to native, architecture specific assembly,
that's not
the C layer's role
mircea_popescu: looky : either something's fundamentally broken with lisp, or else it has no "architecture" ; much in
the way purple has no shape.
phf: mircea_popescu:
that's not what
the layer between os and lisp does in
the case of sbcl/cmucl. it explicitly doesn't do primitives, because
those are, like you said, written in lisp,
that's compiled into native bytecode (using VOB's, i.e. chunks for assembly)
mircea_popescu: lisp is supposed
to exist out of what, six primitives or some such ? write
them in asm. once you're done
the job's ~done.
mircea_popescu: your application for
thick condoms has been denied. rawdog
that skank.
phf: vm in
this case means something closer
to x86 bios
phf: yeah, sorry
that was ambigious
mircea_popescu: you keep going back
to
this "my code runs in javascript via php" approach
to life. it's nonsense.
there's 0 need for c.
mircea_popescu: there is no need
to have c specific issues in lisp. seriously. write
the asm.
phf: write whole
thing in c?