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asciilifeform: to mathematize : if the validity of a received datum can depend not only on past , but on ~future~ data, you have a 'to allcomers' ram giveaway. precisely like the 'orphanages' etc

a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 15:33 mircea_popescu: but yes, it was practically shown that a) no actual protection from ddos exists, outside of the ostrich method discussed above and b) udp is the key to this state of affairs.

BingoBoingo: Mocky: Uruguay has a similar "freezone" system, gotta read the fine print

asciilifeform: Mocky: you're a likeable fella... get'em to like you

Mocky: re: ice40 x250 and other projects: If I get a toe hold in Qatar, they have a 'free zone' to entice foreign R&D and tech startups which permits a new company to have 100% foreign owners, 0% tax on profits, duty free import/export. But requires them to like you and what you're trying to do. ☟︎

mod6: *nod* makes sense. Once I get all of the info back I need, I'll send around a board comm so we're all on the same page, and will list some possible options.

mod6: I've asked a number of times in both castles, and a few individuals direclty (whom previously said they'd be willing); no takers yet -- however, still waiting on some info back before we're on our own. Will let you know.

mod6: im just sayin', overall, that's a suprisingly long way for a winged-rat.

asciilifeform: mod6: if there were a place within 500km of BingoBoingo with sane customs regime, he'd be there already, neh.

mod6: lol, that's a long way

asciilifeform: but i suspect not a winner, they do what, 500 km.

BingoBoingo: The national rolling pigeon club is a few blocks away. Could see if those would work

mod6: can we get a squad of these seals to blockade runners for us:?

asciilifeform: Mocky: in the past i attempted a fpga rsa also. sadly the 'ice40' would need to be about 250x bigger, for it to be bakeable

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: whole reason ddos even exists as a concept is the short-sighted idjicy of arpa designers. i'd like to avoid repeating it.

asciilifeform: this is a temporary peace.

BingoBoingo: <Mocky> old log threads appear to have mircea_popescu with hatred of UDP, which has meanwhile dissipated ? << There was a period when reddit hadn't yet given up on marginalizing the Republic and DDoS's were pestilential.

Mocky: I don't see the benefit of building in a reliance on an external UDP fragment reassembly mechanism when the algo is 'all or nothing'.

asciilifeform: re : udpism : at the risk of rehashing some of the ancient gossipd thread, i'ma put a few notes re fragging :

mod6: not bad, for a Friday am.

BingoBoingo: Apparently it is going to be a good year for pork and problematic year for snakes, of which I have yet to see any in this country

BingoBoingo: In other news, the morning news program "Buen Dia Uruguay" has a fat wrinkly bag on right now reading Tarot cards and making predictions for 2019

a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 06:24 diana_coman: asciilifeform's published test data seems to match what I got on my initial tests with 1 second delay; my current plan is to collect first at least 1 week worth of data and then to repeat the experiment with a. smaller delays b. several senders perhaps

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855180 << also forgot to answer -- it's a mips 'octeon' running freebsd off ssd , iirc described in several old thrds ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-28 00:58 mircea_popescu: but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855188 << nitpick: >1500byte always fragged, cuz ethernet. but! apparently get sewn back together in time. at least at the currently tried rates, and with mix of sizes ( remains to be seen what receiver will do with a summed MB/s of frags from different people ) ☝︎

diana_coman: asciilifeform's published test data seems to match what I got on my initial tests with 1 second delay; my current plan is to collect first at least 1 week worth of data and then to repeat the experiment with a. smaller delays b. several senders perhaps ☟︎

mircea_popescu: there's also no intention to reproduce the usual http://trilema.com/2016/the-eastern-rpg/ bs. there's not going to be a "central town" everyone HAS to go to because of the linear&automated questline.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 19:17 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:54 asciilifeform: phf: imho your approach , i.e. dispensing with gnupatch, is The Right Thing, historically there was quite a bit of grief from gnupatch's habit of eagerly attempting to apply an invalid (by vtronic lights) but 'partially ok' by barbarian lights patch

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 17:27 phf: trinque: vtools has not been design or intended to compete with any particular v implementation. it's a set of tools that you can use in a v workflow (hence the name). at least initially it was two matching tools vdiff and vpatch that know how to produce and consume a canonical vpatch. the conflation came up, because i also published vtools in a form that broke existing canonical v, v.pl, and was tasked with fixing the situation.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 16:08 asciilifeform: imho the situation where 'errybody made own hack' but no one posted 'because obvious' is a barbarism, really ought to have a civilized 'here is the whole thing' sitting on www somewhere.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855041 << this is so, "here's a complete model" is a periodic necessity. just you know, can't complain that "not there jit when i wanted it". but yes in general, ur examples must be had, fully functional model trains must exist, etc. otherwise how to even run academia. ☝︎

mircea_popescu sitll goign through teh logs. apparently going out for a few hours IS UNSAFE

mircea_popescu: dunno how many people keep that around though. i don't think it'd be a crime or anything to make a command-line keccak branch off of it, so people can just press to that if they want.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:57 phf: i think v.pl is a venerable tool, it's battle tested, it has established interface, it's been worked on for three years now. i don't see any reason to throw it out.

mircea_popescu: kinda weird for a restaurant to also attempt to provide phone service for the patrons. what, they can't carry phones inside ?

asciilifeform: will be interesting to try a shot with several people txing from different places. see if it triggers antiddos derpery somewhere.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: then yer golden, loox like. at least if errybody has a path no worse than mine

asciilifeform: mod6: i seem to recall a much sadder london test but that was with very heavy packets iirc

mircea_popescu: truth be told, on the internet-as-we-thought-it-was, video on demand'd have been a miracle.

asciilifeform: yea i suspect 508 is a textbookism

mircea_popescu: but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it. ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( i dun have a tap in florida, lol )

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wanna run one with .1 s or 10ms ? that might be a good move.

asciilifeform: ( afaik 1sec is way moar than long enuff for a packet to either make it, or vanish )

asciilifeform: worx a++

mircea_popescu: so then. phf did a new ~vdiff~. and a very good one at that, from all i can see.

mircea_popescu: nb. let it run for a few weeks if you will, so we have nice datasets to work on

mircea_popescu: as things grow, upgrades by parts become a matter of necessity.

mircea_popescu: yes there's nothing wrong with people publishing toolsets ; but this can't become a fucking expectations wth. craftsman -- has toolset.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: just nao -- muscle-powered v a la diana_coman . this weekend would like to reword v.py to run on phf's components.

mircea_popescu: that alf manages to do this naturally and with i suspect no malice aforethought (or anything else aforethought at all) is in a sense supportive of the hopes of humanity -- apparently ignorance breeds the nonsense on its own, no "dark lizard" behind it all needed.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:36 phf: asciilifeform: but if you want a full "v replacement and i don't want to think about none of that" then just use esthlos's item. i believe he has a working keccak already

a111: Logged on 2018-09-25 15:58 mircea_popescu: add a 1s delay between packets.

asciilifeform: oh hm it stops after a while

asciilifeform: going by the current empirical test, however, a packet that frags into 2 or even 3, typically goes. tho it remains to be seen whether they start falling down once you saturate.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 21:02 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855089 << i have no fucking idea how. i read the logs daily atm, mostly impelled by... outright fear. the best heuristic i know of, but otherwise this promises to be a first caliber bane as time goes by.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855089 << i have no fucking idea how. i read the logs daily atm, mostly impelled by... outright fear. the best heuristic i know of, but otherwise this promises to be a first caliber bane as time goes by. ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma test & mirror that one when i get a chance

diana_coman: the rest then are for the tester only - let me know if you give it a spin and how it behaves

diana_coman: asciilifeform, ^ there is also a small .vpatch for that issue with null chars at ip

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855075 << yea if i'd smoke-tested it earlier, would have found. on top of this, naively assumed that diana_coman has a working and complete keccaktronic v , given as she's moved smg to newform ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 18:22 asciilifeform: this is the other thing, 'changes are expensive' promote imho a sane view of software, where you actually try to perma-stabilize yer proggy, rather than to keep up the classic 'open sores' eternal cauldron of bubbling liquishit

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855080 << i stole the notion , in slightly modified form, from knuth. the logic is, decrementing versions, with finite initial N, support a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851362 flow , where 'if you fucked it N+1 times , nao forced to call proggy something else' -- specifically in opposition to the heathen plague of runaway ver nums (e.g. linux kernel, emacs, firefox, etc) ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 13:35 asciilifeform: call me an idjit, but i thought there were a new vtron...

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use ☟︎☟︎

phf: asciilifeform: i have a ksum PoC for you, http://btcbase.org/patches/vtools_ksum signed but it's from workbench, potentially buggy. "ksum foo bar qux" gives you shasum style <hash> foo\n<hash> bar\n<hash> qux\n

asciilifeform: phf: imho your approach , i.e. dispensing with gnupatch, is The Right Thing, historically there was quite a bit of grief from gnupatch's habit of eagerly attempting to apply an invalid (by vtronic lights) but 'partially ok' by barbarian lights patch ☟︎

phf: re esthlos's work i think it's a shame that he chose to reimplement own keccak, but is still calling out to gnu patch. he could just focus on graph resolution/signature/wot checking, and offload the validation on vpatch: construct the press list, feed the patches in-order to vpatch, if vpatch succeeds then you know _for certain_ that the sequence of patches is valid, hashes and all

phf: trinque: vtools has not been design or intended to compete with any particular v implementation. it's a set of tools that you can use in a v workflow (hence the name). at least initially it was two matching tools vdiff and vpatch that know how to produce and consume a canonical vpatch. the conflation came up, because i also published vtools in a form that broke existing canonical v, v.pl, and was tasked with fixing the situation. ☟︎

phf: trinque: it hasn't been, and i'm doing omission by not mentioning that vtools had a later mandate for graph resolution. meanwhile esthlos v was supposed to supposed to fix the issue, i suspect that different v's will eventually catch up.

asciilifeform: ( right now there's a linux-like situation where errybody has own flags etc )

trinque: however it'll need a vdiff too, so was going to pull in also phf's work

asciilifeform: imho the situation where 'errybody made own hack' but no one posted 'because obvious' is a barbarism, really ought to have a civilized 'here is the whole thing' sitting on www somewhere. ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-27 15:33 phf: asciilifeform: this has been extensively discussed in the logs. there was never a need for "new style v". v works just fine. one of the design goals of vtools was to nail down (and improve upon) the patch format. vtools are explicitly designed to be used with an existing v (for example i use it with v.py). vdiff produces wellformed vpatches and vpatch presses them ensuring that the format is valid and that the hashes stand. there's no

asciilifeform: then not direly needed. though i'd still like to be able to post keccak hash in the log next time we're doing a thread with fw images or the like.

phf: i think v.pl is a venerable tool, it's battle tested, it has established interface, it's been worked on for three years now. i don't see any reason to throw it out. ☟︎

mod6: Anyway, lack of time is a problem here too.

mod6: The string handling, discussed previously in the logs, is basically a solved problem - would just need something similar to what alf or others have done before - character by character.

mod6: I had started on a ada vtron last year, but I got hung up with some of the string handling, and the fact that I had to use shell-outs for pgp. I'd like to get back to it at some point. I would love to dispense with the shell outs - and can probably do so, but not until 'peh' is finished.

phf: when i started working on vtools there was already a handful of battle tested V implementations, that relied on vdiff.sh/gnu patch combination. vtools is a "drop in" replacement for the later. you get valid vpatch on the input, valid press on the output. the purpose is to nail down the format, and gradually replace out its parts (e.g. transparent sha->keccak transition)

asciilifeform: this thread is not meant to insult phf et al , but i open box where i thought was hammer, but there is only a hammer head

phf: asciilifeform: vtools is not a replacement for v.pl!

asciilifeform: phf: there is not currently a complete replacement for mod6 v.pl ! fact !

asciilifeform: i'd also like to see a continuing existence of multiple working vtrons, so eventually would like to rework mod6's to use newtype format ( unless mod6 would prefer to do it himself )

asciilifeform: phf: this is not a criticism of the format. but turns out asciilifeform has been looking for a 'i missed it in logz?' piece that doesn't exist quite yet ( hopefully will in 3 days... )

asciilifeform: and yes it is the picture i got from log. the gap in my head is where diana_coman switched to the new format; i then assumed there is a 100%-complete new vtron, and that 'hmm simply missed this, is in log somewhere' , turns out nope, notyet

asciilifeform: phf: try an' see from my pov : i get a 'goddamn stop using old v' , go an' uncrate the replacement, and turns out it ain't a plug-in replacement but a set of pieces and a roll of duct tape

phf: asciilifeform: but if you want a full "v replacement and i don't want to think about none of that" then just use esthlos's item. i believe he has a working keccak already ☟︎

phf: asciilifeform: this has been extensively discussed in the logs. there was never a need for "new style v". v works just fine. one of the design goals of vtools was to nail down (and improve upon) the patch format. vtools are explicitly designed to be used with an existing v (for example i use it with v.py). vdiff produces wellformed vpatches and vpatch presses them ensuring that the format is valid and that the hashes stand. there's no ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( given http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854819 + http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854820 , i'd really like to have a 100% working item prior to entirely retiring the old ) ☝︎☝︎

asciilifeform: if phf's item came with a standalone keccak hasher , would then be quite simple to retool e.g. mod6's vtron, to follow the new format. but as it is loox like i'ma have to wait for esthlos , to get full working replacement for old vtrons

asciilifeform: so as i understand nobody has a 100% complete newtype vtron quite yet

asciilifeform: diana_coman: is there a version of mod6's vtron that uses the new vdiff / vpatch ? or what do you use in erryday work ?

diana_coman: asciilifeform, ok, I'll mirror your sigs too and link to the page anyway; a bit later today

asciilifeform: call me an idjit, but i thought there were a new vtron... ☟︎

asciilifeform: diana_coman: do you normally use this with a hand-patched mod6 vtron ? or how ?

asciilifeform: and apparently this is not a full vtron, but only replaces 'diff' and 'patch' ....