213200+ entries in 0.13s
mircea_popescu: what promises
the nodes can make are related
to what
their counterparties say.
mircea_popescu: now,
the historical solutionb
to
the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is
the intrinsic oracle. if user relays
txn
to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the
txn will be included before block n" ?)
then
the nodes can be scored by
their oracle value ("what he said
turned out
true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market.
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: today we have a vaguely similar situation, wherein node world evaporated but not entirely, perhaps in large part because all
the players want
to keep an eye on all
the others.
mircea_popescu: it's somewhat amusing
that history repeats itself, in
that
the gossip market only existed because of
the interest of powerful players -- it's not like servant women managed
to gossip all on
their own! but not like
they were likely going
to get paid for it either!
mircea_popescu: generally,
the mempool function as go between users and nodes.
this function is important.
mircea_popescu: for instance.
there's many ways
to look at it, which is usually indicative of our not understanding something more fundamental.
trinque: I can see it; while my mempool does not have anything
to do with validating incoming blocks, it gives me my only means of shit-testing
the rules by which miners might be filtering
transactions.
trinque: then it seems reasonable for any node operator
to accept
this cost of doing business
trinque: do I have an interest in affording him
this?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron
that is
true, but ungermane. your scheme as proposed simply works better on a proper
tree.
timekeeping separate.
trinque: how does
the presence of my mempool
today prevent some miner for mining whichever
txn he chooses?
mircea_popescu: trinque but you need either
to a)
talk
to people who might not mine your
tx ; or else b) accept living in a usg-run bitcoin world.
trinque: I do not need other people's
transactions
to verify a block
danielpbarron: the 'block' is
to keep it all
timed right, so
that
there's still a certain amount of data stored per 10 minute interval.
this is also how difficulty is calculated
mircea_popescu: trinque ~same reason you walk down
the street in view of everyone rather
than just future employers and spouses.
trinque: i.e. collecting
them
to insert into
the block
mircea_popescu: (currently, from a purely cs
theory / systems design perspective, bitcoin can be laughed at because its blockchain is akin
to spirogira strands. most ridiculous
tree known
to nature.
trinque: and since
they are engaged in
transaction processing, ought
to carry
the full cost of doing so
trinque: rather
than
the nodes which care (i.e. want [to be paid
to] produce a block)
trinque: why am I relaying
txn
to 99% of people who aren't going
to do a damned
thing with it
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yeah,
the only
thing is
that if you actually do something like
that you are better off dispensing with
the notion of "block" and instead create a sort of
tree for a blockchain
trinque: asciilifeform appears
to be bending over backwards
trying
to get people paid
to relay
txn
☟︎ trinque: holy fuck
the fog of metaphor
danielpbarron: in
the staged-mining scenario, miner has incentive
to be at least somewhat public because he will often find valid solutions
that are not quite big enough
to solve a block when used alone, but in combination with smaller pieces will work. so he wants
to keep a pool of little pieces at
the ready
to quickly pad his big chunk
trinque: it is not distinct from
the present day
mircea_popescu: kinda what
the whole mempool does, reduces
the wallflower problem. (irl, girls don't dare go up
to boys lest other girls
think
them sluts, and boys don't dare go up
to girls lest other boys
think
them losers)
mircea_popescu: either his rigs don't cost money, in which case it's a proof-of-reddit coin a la doge, or else
they do, in which case stfu you're not invited
to
the party.
trinque sees very little chance of discussing
the actual item and
tires of chasing it
mircea_popescu: wait, what ? how
the fuck would you remove "incentive for miner secrecy".
trinque: asciilifeform: yes lets switch between ideal bitcoin
thread and current bitcoin
thread whenever it suits
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:10
trinque:
to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is
the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather
than only
those nodes which are mining?
trinque: how bout you criticize *that* rather
than whatever you like
trinque: asciilifeform: under
this imagined scheme ~the only way~ anyone can process any
transactions is if he opens an orifice
to receive
them
mircea_popescu: anyway,
this notion
that you'll color bits with ownership or righteousness or whatever... it dun work irl.
trinque: this draws
them into
the open as you wanted
trinque: asciilifeform: what did you miss where I said "node should advertise whether he wants
to mine"
mircea_popescu: you find yourself in
the ridiculous posture of
trying
to invent a drm
that works and off
the cuff.
trinque: in which case cost is upon me and
the miners I
talked
to, and nobody else's shoulders
trinque: still no answer why
this is better
than me having
to
transmit
to a mining node in
the first place
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you'll never get
the magic number right.
trinque: but I don't see what any of
that benefits
trinque: you can just wrap it in
the relaying node's signature, and
the relaying node gets whatever he demands of
the fee; meanwhile miner wants
the copy of
txn
that gives him
the most fee
a111: Logged on 2017-02-06 18:37
thestringpuller: marketing Snoop Dogg is making a fortune from. d00d is a genius at extracting $$$$ from white girls
mircea_popescu: that's why all
the efforts
to help "black people" as
they were understood by white people created a
thin sliver of black people
tuned
to entertain white people atop a large mass of exceptionally disenfranchised if somewhat authentic black people.
mircea_popescu: but yes, in geneeral rewarding hardship creates
the problem
that it is cheaper
to simulate hardship
than
to go
through it.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:03 asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of
the value of a
tx without
the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where
the last hop (i.e.
the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating
the passage of
the
tx
through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes.
mircea_popescu lolz,
the glock is 65% of
the market. holy shit
this angloworld loves plastics.
mircea_popescu: consequently
there's no promise "plastics" will behave in
the intuitive way.
mircea_popescu: they're
technically plastics because of
the process
through which
they all work, but
that process is no longer fixed one single organic chemistry
thing, but a bevy of
them.
mircea_popescu: much like say "composites"
today is a lot more
than
the "glass fiber" making
the better motor boats on
the black sea at
the period.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 19:24 asciilifeform:
this is kindergarten fact. but still.
trinque: it would be polite
to have a nervous breakdown at
the very least
mircea_popescu: somehow fails
to raise any serious errors, either. "o hey,
turns out on examination... i do not actually exist!"
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 17:59
trinque: as
though
the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random
danielpbarron: the
thing i was imagining had
two different
things
that go on in "transactions" : sending funds from A
to B ; creating new coins out of
thin air. and anyone can create
the new coins, no matter how much hash power
they have.
the big miners could still exist
to supply high quality coins, while
the common user could mine low quality coins