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snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:49:40 lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
asciilifeform: for so long as concept of 'day' is used at all, 'the hole through which the night goes in'(tm) remains open
lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
lobbes: in the mircea_popescuine logger, though, all links will use the server-side-selectory-style. By definition those links will never agree with the traditional loggers since the latter can't span arbitrary lines / text
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:27:50 asciilifeform: ericbot: i'ma restate compactly. atm we index lines. by a monotonic # . the timestamps are stored as unix epochal times. the urls, however, demand a e.g. 2014-07-16 , and always did, and these both now and then were parsed via what the particular box thought local time was. resulting in headache, because machine timekeeping was , and remains, shite.
asciilifeform: with ntpism they give up not only sovereignty (washington gets to tell you 'what time it is') but monotonicity !
asciilifeform: the heathens pretend that they 'solve' this via ntpism. but, characteristically of heathenisms, it dun fucking solve anyffin, is a 'can't believe it aint butter!' pressed sawdust 'solution'.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937945 for instance diverge by 15m. and that's today. month from nao, prolly will diverge by 30, or worse
asciilifeform: the historic epochtimestamps are incidentally all over the place, try setting a scratch box logger to sort ~by time~ some time and weep. ( from when phf , for instance, imported his znc, evidently wasn't 100% synced to the primary logger ; and elsewhere )
asciilifeform: so , say you have a logger of whatever type (either traditional or mircea_popescuine) and 2 of these dun agree re when a day ended -- bang, you get links that dun lead to the desired text. cuz they try to use the fucking date.
asciilifeform: even to actually use the unix epochal time, is dodgy. cuz, again, no 2 tmsr boxes are ever likely to come to an accurate agreement re what unix.epochtime it is 'now'.
asciilifeform: nor is there likely ever gonna be any such agreement. use of reich time gotta be made 100% decorative, or to go away entirely.
asciilifeform: ericbot: i'ma restate compactly. atm we index lines. by a monotonic # . the timestamps are stored as unix epochal times. the urls, however, demand a e.g. 2014-07-16 , and always did, and these both now and then were parsed via what the particular box thought local time was. resulting in headache, because machine timekeeping was , and remains, shite.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-27 11:35:18 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931353 << phf yer missing the point , i need so that http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-16#758070 AND http://btcbase.org/log/1945-07-16#758070 go to same thing !
ericbot: Logged on 2019-08-28 21:14:00 asciilifeform: trinque: basic desired scheme is http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931395
lobbes goes back to review trinque/alf convo on url clock problem
asciilifeform: so things could, i suppose, be worse, era1 could be in aramaic!111
asciilifeform: (couldn't agree on translation of n-1th ea. time they got hard-reset)
asciilifeform: ancient problem, sorta how the j00z ended up with a talmud in 4 langs
asciilifeform: imho all of this is a++ illustration of how even in very small, conceptually (vs. e.g. ye olde c/gcc/linux orchestra) system, 'legacy' retardation gets firmly baked in and very difficult to entirely remove.
asciilifeform: ftr we still haven't a pill for the url clocks problem.
lobbes: aha, I was just about to mention the bot echos
asciilifeform: this, rather like the 'url clocks' problem, demands a 'smart' transmutation of old l0gz, somehow, in order to work 100% correctly.
asciilifeform: ... rapidly this becomes a headache, re historic logs where 1e6 times people cited specifically bot echoes
asciilifeform: would have to make the wwwtron avoid displaying bot echoes tho ( theoretically one'd still want bot echoes , to see wtf is going on when reading via live irc session rather than www )
asciilifeform: if finally throwing out the ancient kakobreklic format for logger display, wai not go full throttle.
asciilifeform: for folx who give a shit 'via what bot? was the citation' -- can put that in 'hovertext' .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:41:56 mircea_popescu: consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
asciilifeform: result is imho not only moar compact ( why throw the ' http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938055 ' to the screen ? ) but moar readable .
asciilifeform: ^ in this example, as we're using line-based selector, cites whole line. but if used fine-grained selector, could cite the selection.
asciilifeform goes to construct example...
asciilifeform: another thought : the display of literal machine-readable links verbatim in log, is quite wasteful, and if yer doing a whole-page transform, quite avoidable. why not make the cited text the displayed part of the clickable link (and orig. url -- the machine part when same is clicked) .
asciilifeform: incidentally, if yer going full throttle w/ selectables , the Right Thing imho would be to take it all the way and make items like this actually display (if reasonably compact.. config knob?) the linked text. a la old man ted nelson's 'transclusions' concept .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:37:54 mircea_popescu: loggers as extant suffer from being built manalone style, from scratch, as such the only possible in-page selection is an ad-hoc (but very functional, as it happens) by-line.
asciilifeform: the other thing, the adhoc traditional line select is human-friendly, very fast to grab a line url, whereas mircea_popescu-style selector less so, gotta find unique start/end text, when citing from trilema it usually takes asciilifeform 2-3 shots to nail down the correct snip
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:23:37 asciilifeform: ( and: if yer not indexing by line , why not actually merge the text when speaker is contiguous ? )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938061 << prolly oughta add to this tho : fleanode not infrequently reorders lines , so might end up with some shuffled if doing this
billymg: just found it now and read it over, did not know mp-wp trackbacks were broken in this way
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 05:08:58 mircea_popescu: billymg, did you ever find the trilema article re how to re-do your missed pingbacks ?
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937737 << this one? http://trilema.com/2015/how-to-fix-your-local-trackbacks/
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:41:56 mircea_popescu: consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938055 << iirc he described , 'cheated' by running a znc somewhere and so happened that at no point both fell down simultaneously ( just as e.g. snsabot and ossabot not yet fell down together )
asciilifeform: can't think of any reason not to ~display~ them as mircea_popescu described tho
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 19:57:41 asciilifeform: lobbes: i relit mine via curl "http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1937934&iend=1937941" > foo; ./eat_dump.py foo trilema 3
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:37:00 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938036 << nor do you give a shit, seeing how the lines aren't indexed.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938050 << if you dun actually store the raw irc lines somewhere, sync ~from~ your logger becomes suddenly quite nontrivial.
asciilifeform: in related grrs, asciilifeform recently attempted backport of mircea_popescu's selector knob to own wp, but broke teeth cuz it dun know how to cross paragraphs, and i have '9000' multi-para selections, esp. in ffa series where coad
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:52:01 mircea_popescu: for this reason any imanentization (ie, mapping of concepts into reality) will revolve around a "paradigm" / wilful blindness of some kind. "how could i not think of that" is always lulzy -- if you thought of everything your head would explode. and that's a literalism : if you somehow fit all states of its own emptiness into a glass it'd go boom.
asciilifeform: ( and: if yer not indexing by line , why not actually merge the text when speaker is contiguous ? )
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 21:38:22 mircea_popescu: whereas on trilema you have the whole power of the mp-wp selectylanguage at your disposals, you don't need the line numbers because you can just select w/e actually interests you
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938053 << ideally would pipe it into sumthing like a table layout, so can select w/out repeatedly including speaker indicator per line e.g. 'mircea_popescu:'
mircea_popescu: for this reason any imanentization (ie, mapping of concepts into reality) will revolve around a "paradigm" / wilful blindness of some kind. "how could i not think of that" is always lulzy -- if you thought of everything your head would explode. and that's a literalism : if you somehow fit all states of its own emptiness into a glass it'd go boom.
mircea_popescu: the problem with people isn't a problem with people, but with infinities : realia is somewhat infinite ; idealia is MUCH more infinite than that (whole thing neatly mirrors the cardinality of power sets, actually).
mircea_popescu: consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
mircea_popescu: this whole pile is however a massive lesson in evolution-vs-design thematics & tropes ; that "the function creates the organ" is musky throughout ; the blogger's retrospect ("had i not done x it'd never have occured to me to do y") omnipresent ; and so following.
mircea_popescu: whereas on trilema you have the whole power of the mp-wp selectylanguage at your disposals, you don't need the line numbers because you can just select w/e actually interests you
mircea_popescu: loggers as extant suffer from being built manalone style, from scratch, as such the only possible in-page selection is an ad-hoc (but very functional, as it happens) by-line.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:12:27 lobbes: hmm this makes me rethink my current design re: mp-wp bot as well. As it stands, there is no way to "re-sync" since it just spits the lines into a blog post.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938036 << nor do you give a shit, seeing how the lines aren't indexed.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:02:13 asciilifeform: was thinking re how oughta do auto-syncs. one possible method, is for bot to take command via pm, e.g. !q sync 1000 http://logs.ossasepia.com ; would then walk last N (here, 1000) ln, and offer 'identical', 'diverges prior', or 'diverges at I', I is index, and offer alignment, operator (set in config who) can then confirm or reject
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938022 << emerging sync language from the fact we use bots, rather than not. mindblowing.
asciilifeform: it'd be a 1st class bitch to resync ~from~, however. but fortunately we have other types of loggers that know how to emit lines x..y for given x/y
asciilifeform: imho a logger that can't resync at all, aint much of a logger. but at the same time i dun see why a generate-statics logger couldn't be made to resync. simply a bit moar complicated.
lobbes: but idk, perhaps this is more complex than MP wants it to be
lobbes: in theory, could index the lines in that file, so as to preserve ordering, as well as keep more than one file (currently, this one file is overwritten on each new day)
lobbes: indeed. Would just be a buncha "update" statements that fill in the proper lines. As it currently is designed, I have it spitting lines into a flat file first, and that file is used to update the "current day's log" post as new lines are seen
asciilifeform: ( and to do it very quickly, else someone could easily speak during the regen, and leave you unsynced again )
asciilifeform: lobbes: as i understand, with that type of logger you'd have to regen all of the pages that include or follow the gap, in order to close a filled gap.
lobbes: yeah, I'll guess I'll let the man speak to if he wants sync capabilities in the mp-wp-tronic branch
asciilifeform: lobbes: it's 1 of the reasons why asciilifeform did not like mircea_popescu's original tip re how to bake logger ('just pipe it into a wp') ; but mircea_popescu did specifically ask for 1 that does exactly that, for own www, i presume he knows what he's doing
asciilifeform: hence why imho resync ~must~ be a semi-automatic, rather than automatic, process.
lobbes: hmm this makes me rethink my current design re: mp-wp bot as well. As it stands, there is no way to "re-sync" since it just spits the lines into a blog post.
asciilifeform: mechanical diffing, meanwhile, is tricky because ordering is already known to differ ( almost guaranteed to differ when bots are speaking, one's own bot's output ~always~ enters log before that of other bots ; but also can differ elsewhere on acct of fleanode weather )
asciilifeform: so far all the gaps have been small enuff to visually examine, but this will not necessarily remain the case
asciilifeform: otherwise you could easily end up importing the other logger's hole vs yours
asciilifeform: thing is -- imho it is poor practice to blindly pick another logger and overwrite massive chunk of own db with it w/out mechanically testing that they diverge strictly in favour of the other
asciilifeform: ( could of course add a cmdline param to it, to enable overwrite )
asciilifeform: currently this is a gnarly manually-cranked process, as ./eat_dump.py deliberately is made so ~not~ to import any line that conflicts with existing index
lobbes: ah okay. that makes sense
asciilifeform: lobbes: 'tail' here being whatever lines come after the gap, and thereby have erroneous index #s
asciilifeform: lobbes: not if it knows how to drop the broken tail
lobbes: in general auto-sync would be nifty. but just like the manual method, would need to wait until "dead time" to prevent new lines appearing during the sync wouldn't it?
asciilifeform: another method would be that periodically tests against loggers given in config, and pm's operator if and only if finds divergence.
asciilifeform: if choose 'confirm' then eats all changes req'd to get to 'identical' .
asciilifeform: was thinking re how oughta do auto-syncs. one possible method, is for bot to take command via pm, e.g. !q sync 1000 http://logs.ossasepia.com ; would then walk last N (here, 1000) ln, and offer 'identical', 'diverges prior', or 'diverges at I', I is index, and offer alignment, operator (set in config who) can then confirm or reject
asciilifeform: ( granted this only worx if there's no conflicting tail, i.e. you get to the console just in time. failing that, (presently) gotta drop the conflicting tail in db before snarfing )
asciilifeform: lobbes: i relit mine via curl "http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1937934&iend=1937941" > foo; ./eat_dump.py foo trilema 3
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plz consider to put said bash+awk in 'contrib' dir of vtree
lobbes: our three loggers seem to be in-sync w/re: to #t: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937944 http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937944
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-25 10:05:45 mircea_popescu: it'll benefit the nooblets immensely if they seriously spend some time groking the "turn" thing. there's a time for everything ; and for most things that time isn't NOW.
lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937788 << /me goes to re-read said article
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937958 - damn it, made me write a bash+awk to fish it out ffs, line 1001471
asciilifeform: picture is consistent with 'monkey unplugged then went to smoke', i.e. 100% packet loss for ~4m.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this 1 was a piz-wide outage.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yours was specific to dulap ( where phuctor db was being walked just as mircea_popescu happened to load ) , recall that other boxen were unaffected
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 16:46:54 asciilifeform: pretty interesting outage, too, net pipe gone for 3min or so (boxes still up, so not mains failure)
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937949 << funny, i had been describing this sorta issue for a while ?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-19 05:39:18 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, an' considering we're apparently stuck with a buncha chrises over here : any of your resident knights capable of registering a chan on ~any other network~ and writing the bridge code on top of extant bot already ?
diana_coman: on the other hand, since he's been apparently slaving away in web-shitstack & python for ages, he'll have a stab at the multi network bridging thing; we'll see if he cuts or breaks his teeth on it
asciilifeform: ( or did mircea_popescu divide by 0 an' crash before got to that part..? )