log☇︎
108500+ entries in 0.739s
asciilifeform: just like i won't fuck a hole in a rusty truck on some godforsaken junkyard lot.
asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery. ☟︎
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: unattractive is a bit of an understatement.
jurov: bitbet was not basic research peroject, but a business
asciilifeform: a very heavy dose of can't-be-valued
BingoBoingo: Who knows, maybe after reciever cuts it up Betmoose would be willing to buy parts and carry it as the sort of reddit betting thing they've been somehow floating for a while. I don't know if I would bet there, but seems like possible buyer for domain/software.
asciilifeform: given as it was structured in such a way that ANY unexpected ding would destroy it utterly unless carried by that month's profit. ☟︎
BingoBoingo though is unlikely to on his own carry a BitBet on his Betting volume
BingoBoingo may be up for continuing to bet on a restarted BBET depending on who acquires it
asciilifeform: for mircea_popescu to admit that he elbowed a button and crashed the tank ?
asciilifeform: a restarted bbet ?
phf: i'm a slow thinker, so i'm taking my time
jurov: but i already did that short of negrating him, why would i need a judge?
phf: instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.? ☟︎
asciilifeform: jurov: i suspect that if you were to suggest to mircea_popescu that a group of lordz could, or ought to, make a collective decision, he would break out in hives and barf ☟︎
jurov: for me that question boils down to judge deciding if mircea_popescu acted in good faith or not acc. to agreement.. which is likely not a good thing
phf: jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on ☟︎
phf: jurov: that second question is a lot more relevant to the issue then a lot of things that's been said so far
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision
phf: jurov: that's a pointless rim shot, that is representative of the level of discourse so far.
asciilifeform: trinque: the thread concerned an invention, rather than a certain amount of my time.
trinque: it is entirely my point that it is a question of practicality and not categorical unpossibleness
phf: the logs, some people had a conversation about it, that is all.
asciilifeform: there it comes from the 10,001 koku of rice a true man collects from his serfs
trinque: asciilifeform: your time lacks a price because nobody bought it
trinque: there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically ☟︎
asciilifeform: just like it is meaningless to discuss the weight of a planet
asciilifeform: you can't price a thing that cannot be in any practical way traded
asciilifeform: jurov: but neither was a work-for-hire cash'n'carry thing
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2015 18:04:11; asciilifeform: 'All of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for grant
jurov: but the maintenance on ongoing basis, needs a prolly a better agreement
phf: that was an answer to a solrodar's intentionally pointed question about costs of hosting vs. mp's "time", which was in term prompted by my attempt to understand how bitbet works ☟︎
asciilifeform: that is, as i understand, mircea_popescu's 'bbet consumed megatonnes of grade-A mptronium which i supplied at no cost, and now people expect be to also put in coin for phree?!'
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:34:02; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of
asciilifeform: would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ? ☟︎
phf: i think it's entirely normal for tmsr operation to not have a bedrock, since we've just spent a year exploring just how rotten bedrock is. hosting, "personal affairs", linguistic and architectural choices, what have you.
phf: ftr i didn't raise that as a question, i was clarifying how things are for myself and others.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your offer to pay what the thing costs is going to cost us A FUCKING FORTUNE down the road. you understand this ?
assbot: Logged on 12-03-2016 03:45:55; mircea_popescu: there's a graph, it doesn't touch 1bn.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 03:18:27; mircea_popescu: in more practical news - jurov here's one for you. https://bitbet.us/bet/1247/parties-smer-sd-and-sns-to-win-supermajority-in/ is to be resolved. problem is the res source gives vote % and not a word re seats, and the bet is re seats.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of bitbet codebase ? ☟︎
asciilifeform: it is not a replacement for working bitcoin. but a pill to wake folks up to the fact of the broken one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you' << o no fucking way jesus christ.
asciilifeform: and, like most folks direly missing a tool, come to believe that 'i don't need screwdriver, hammer's claw in expert hands is always just as good or better'
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1MiRvWO )
phf: PeterL: right, banks have a kind of wot when they deal with each other, quantified as collateral against credit exposure
asciilifeform: he can correct me if this is not a valid summary, when he wakes up.
assbot: 12 results for 'from:mircea_popescu deficit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+deficit
assbot: 1 results for 'from:mircea_popescu tmsr deficit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+tmsr+deficit
assbot: 8 results for 'buluceala' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buluceala
PeterL: but would bitbet also extend such to their customers? they seem to be pretty firm about if it is not in the block before bet resolves it becomes a donation to shareholders
PeterL: and then payment was not late just because it was a long time getting into block
asciilifeform: a la how we deal with folks who kite cheques.
asciilifeform: it is the job of the payer to sign a valid tx, from valid inputs.
asciilifeform: which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you'
asciilifeform: i.e. that someone chose to make a particular exception from ordinary prb rules in order to ding bbet.
asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun. ☟︎
asciilifeform: there is not, reliably, such a thing.
asciilifeform: the high-S thing was the most serious, imho, warning bell that there ~is~ such a thing as miner collusion
asciilifeform: (note, the protocol PERMITS a block with high-S tx. hence my suggestion to build a high-S-only pool.)
PeterL: I guess he could specifically design a transaction which is not passed by prb, and see if it gets into blocks, which I think the high-S thing was an example?
asciilifeform: perhaps this is a failure of my puny brain, but i am at a loss as to what assurance mircea_popescu could possibly have had, and from whom, that there is not a prb vermin between mpb-net and the miner.
asciilifeform: and that whichever meatspace folk with whom he had peering arrangements, a) bamboozled him and/or b) were in turn bamboozled by their peers.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is not actually my business how mircea_popescu transmits his tx, but since he chose to present the bbet matter in the tmsr public forum, rather than limiting it to folks 'whose business it is', i will say, that the mpb (client and network both) is a serious ?????? in the story. i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations.
mats: also not a big fan of handling other people's money
mats: http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it, the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want to be in the position of resolving this, but i'd be happy to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432438 << Generally how the bet goes. blood taken over contest being a farce generally doesn't make it to bettors. ☝︎
asciilifeform: but if mircea_popescu signed a statement that he transmits directly to the miners, and has no doubt that this is so, because he ran the cable himself, i will believe...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as a possible explanation.
phf: PeterL: oh from ~sale~ you mean. i don't think that shareholders have any claim to sale. since it's a zero asset corporation, the only movable part is "bets come in, percentage collected, payment sent out". "assets" is the percentage that's collected at the end of month, and immediately distributed to shareholders. what is being sold is domain/codebase and a negotiation rights with mp for hosting. that was never funded by shareholders
asciilifeform: at no point did i state a belief in 'imperceptible miners', just observing that the miner collusion is not a necessary hypothesis re the bbet event.
asciilifeform: there is a network, consisting, apparently, mostly of sybil.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you not say the words "mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz" ?
asciilifeform: well if mircea_popescu demonstrated the logic whereby miner collusion is a necessary hypothesis, vs sybils alone, i must have slept through it ?
phf: so whatever %1's been collected so far is divided between mp,kako,shareholders with receiver making a call there, pay outs go to original addresses, assets are auctioned and the auction proceeds are split between mp,kako with receiver making call there
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432524 << i STILL do not see the miners thing as a necessary hypothesis. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: but as it is, doesn't seem a workable plan.
mircea_popescu: iirc originally a chunk was sold, then sometime early last year or perhaps late 2014 the remainder of the shares were distributed to the principals. iirc i didn't sell much, mostly now and again to try and temper overexcited price action. should be something like .5 to maybe 3mn shares outstanding depending how much kako himself sold.
mircea_popescu: but hey, if that's above what can be had, whatever, i'll build a shrine to allah / brothel / whatever out of the proceeds and that's that.
phf: i'm trying to compartmentalize where there's none, ultimately the whole thing is a counterparty problem, and only recourse is loss&negrate
mircea_popescu: it's a disease of the mind that i don't really think can be cured, just quarantined.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and don't need a 'speaker for.' <<< the problem with the democrat's mind is that he's been ruined by low effort "success" and so will forever be seeking this fantasy of a "silent electorate" to propel him through a life without labour.
phf: solrodar: and to finish the thought, you "want" audit to ensure that bitbet holds all the bitcoin for open debts, rather then, say, having it all transfered into kako's or mp's coffers. that's the "reserve" although of course a joking misnomer.
solrodar: so you're saying that bitbet hasn't really been profitable in a long time, but you kept it running for entertainment value?
mircea_popescu: that unnamed business, for instance, sustained a 600k euro cost of doing business with fiat banking.
assbot: Time for Europe to repeal the US-backed AML crap. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J3esew )
phf: so a clarification to what i said above, it's kakobrekla and mircea_popescu together paying for all aspects of bitbet operation out of pocket
mircea_popescu: but upon consideration, i did put the amt for the server into the costs, it really being a pittance
mircea_popescu: phf well no, kakobrekla wrote and maintained the code and for a while covered the server costs. the former part is no trivial matter, i will point out.
mircea_popescu: the "reserves" thing was mostly a joke. at the time it so happened as part of the mysterious functioning of the mp payment network that inputs originally sent to bitbet were not spent.
phf: seems to be that most? every? aspect of bitbet operation was funded out of mp's pocket, so it's zero asset because it literally doesn't own any of the parts required for its operation. bitbet as an entity existed purely as a "bets come in, house takes percentage, payments come out" operation.
solrodar: but were there ever any reserves, or was that audit a misunderstanding?
phf: solrodar: nothing need have happened to warrant that question. reserve is there to pay out what was payed in. can't pay for server from reserve. ascii's question is not pointed, he's never seen bitbet's paperwork and is surprised that a business can run without own assets.
assbot: Logged on 07-04-2014 19:36:22; kakobrekla: cool, so its a double reverse fractional reserve
asciilifeform: the number is simply to ensure that folks connecting at random, in public toilets, end up with a thick layer of sybil between them and the statistically probable genuine non-gangrenous flesh somewhere far away.
asciilifeform: but what there also was, was mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz
asciilifeform: shinohai: betcha there's a botnet install in there.
asciilifeform: and don't need a 'speaker for.'
phf: nubbins`: that's not the meaning of the paragraph. not "what" you did, but "how" is the focus., and the sentence you're pointing at is an exposition that frames my perspective, in a form similar to "some of us here are shoemakers and we blah blah blah". whatever blah blah blah is, it's not usually about how shoemakers can not shoemake anymore, but is more like "i speak for shoemakers"
nubbins`: <+phf>nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things <<< nothing about what i did prevents this from continuing.