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mircea_popescu: it doesn't illustrate all pressables that are, but a sort of all pressables that could ever be.

asciilifeform: but a drawing of the graph illustrates all pressables.

mircea_popescu: that's a press. we're drawing here.

mircea_popescu: so if we're drawing and leaf Z requires a in state 3 and we're at state 4, that's it for Z.

mircea_popescu: anywya : as the graph progresses past the antecedent of a leaf, it therefore goes outside the event horizon of that leaf.

mircea_popescu: (event horizon is the boundry whithin which phenomena can affect the observer) << this is a much less intuitive, if technically correct affirmative statement.

mircea_popescu: the opposite of a boundry ?

mircea_popescu: ok, more practically speaking : the graphatron is a visualizer of individual patches event horizons. how about that.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: today it is a unit, shannon, sh

phf: antecedent relationship goes backwards though. x<-y perhaps means y points at x as a parent without x's knowledge

asciilifeform: thing is, i realized a while back that a leaf depending on other leaves at all, is abuse of v

phf: the second meaning is, and that one comes up since we have multiple files to a patch, in order to press x i need both y and z.

asciilifeform: realize, v was something that i was specifically only able to conceive of because i am working with cultured folks who can be relied upon to not shit in the kitchen. operating vtron will always require a good measure of intelligence, wisdom, restraint...

mircea_popescu: right. and in the example given, X->Z (or rather, Z > X) is not a connection to origin.

phf: and ~not~ anything related to a working press

mircea_popescu: i mean socially. whether we have a technical problem or not is part of the problem.

asciilifeform: i am not certain that we have a problem !

mircea_popescu: and phf has a point in that it's not even a very well understood one.

mircea_popescu: still, this is a problem in search of a good solution.

mircea_popescu: back to the issue of substance. the idea is that whatever any current implementation may do, a situation where : 1) X takes A from 1 to 2 and B from 1 to 2 ; 2) Y takes A from 2 to 3 and B from 3 to 3 and 3) Z takes A from 2 to 4 and B from 3 to 4 should be represented as X->Y->Z only, and not as X->Y->Z, X->Z

phf: well, there's no issue with that graph presentation, because it produces correct press. it's just that graph is "meaningless" without the toposort. visualizing it doesn't answer any question beyond "this and that share a hash"

mircea_popescu: irl fragile parts like windows get a paint X on them, but here no such luck.

asciilifeform: my vtron was very much a battlefield wunderwaffen, adequate strictly for pressing a well-gardened trb tree that consisted 95% of asciilifeform

asciilifeform: this was clearly explained. then various folks tried to derive a means to auto sort leaves in some meaningful way

mircea_popescu: get_ante returns all leaves required for a press.

asciilifeform: and yes, because they share a hash

a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 14:15 phf: that's the behavior of the original v where the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"

mircea_popescu: so ? this doesn't prove "not a bug"

phf: that's the behavior of the original v where the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash" ☟︎

phf: mircea_popescu: i don't think that's a bug, that's more of a conceptual thing.

mircea_popescu: phf so basically you found a bug in mod6's perl implementation of v ?

phf: so the fact that Z requires b 3 is irrelevant, since Z also requires a 1

phf: in v's definition of antecedent, the only requirement is "share a single hash"

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-08#1464645 << pretty sure that's where there's a lot of confusion, even between what you're saying and what ascii is saying ☝︎

ben_vulpes: http://archive.is/637lm << unrelatedly, don't you want to stay at the cow cave? the akita house? perhaps the host of the kangaroo treehouse's beguiling pose will entice you into a rental. if none of those appeal, consider pug palace, cow boat, or the cottage cheese cottage

mod6: ben_vulpes: is there a way to get around this?

mod6: Oh, and a cat! Which, in absolute fairness, was by far the most intelligent local present. << haha

mircea_popescu: back in ro glory days there were a few people in various ministries doing just that

asciilifeform: a few min ago.

deedbot hands you a broomstick.

mod6: shinohai: dangit. i curl'd that wotpaste and i got a different hash output

BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski re: http://www.contravex.com/2016/05/07/pete-buys-a-minivan/ Exactly how fat are Lexus's typical customers that such a gulf is required between passenger car's curb weight and carrying capacity ☟︎

ben_vulpes: it's only ever made sense to me in the context of pressing a specific patch.

phf: i need to just write this stuff up, but at this point i'm leaning towards the idea that you can't really make a better graph than "shares a hash", and all that communicates is that "this guy uses content from this other guy"

phf: v's graph says "these two patches share a common hash", but that doesn't mean that one can be pressed on top of another in isolation

asciilifeform: rather than a helpful feature.

asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: concern is that embassy of 'neutral' country is a great place to betray the motherland to kgb. or the like.

asciilifeform: the 'hash must match' is the only path to 'i meant what i said and i said what i meant, a walrus is certain one hundred percent'

phf: so you can do a single pass (and that's what my graph does) to eliminate all the edges that have conflicts

phf: X and Z share a's hash, but they have conflicting b hashes

phf: because X and Z share a's hash, X and Y share b's hash, Y and Z share b's hash

phf: patch Z takes a from 1 to 8, b from 3 to 4

phf: patch X takes a from null to 1, b from null to 2

phf: say you have two files, a b. patch X takes a from null to hash 0 and b from null to hash 0

ben_vulpes: > press as a graph transition << would you elaborate?

phf: but that doesn't guarantee a clean press as a graph transition. it only guarantees clean press when you topo sort the graph

phf: in ascii's v graph edge means "share a common hash"

mod6: thats not a bad test we wanna try to break this fucker

ben_vulpes: that edges mean patches share a common hash

mod6: i just tried dumping a priv key from an invalid bitcoin address, error says: 'error {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid bitcoin address"}'

mod6: some day im gonna have to write a boatload more cucumber tests for this shit

mod6: i just tested trying to dump a key from an address not in the wallet and it says:

phf: note that the graph edge can actually have multiple different meanings. on mod6 graph, an edge means "patches share a common hash". on my graph edge means "patch can be applied on top of other patch without conflict"

mod6: heh, that's a good thing (tm)

shinohai: back, yeah sometimes it acts a little weird when you import keys, like mine will hang a really long time.

mod6: not the end of the world. the whole thing needs a rewrite anyway.

mod6: i tried to reimport that same key - it gave me an error, which, it probably should, but it's a bit non-descript.

mod6: ok so this thing dumped out a privkey just fine.

mod6: it's a bug though. gotta dig into it. we have a ticket for it.

shinohai wishes we still had testnet in a way. :/

deedbot: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] John the mulch man. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/05/07/john-the-mulch-man/

mod6: (its been running for /a while/)

mod6: if I use the raw patch from the deal press pukes on an unmatched hash. (a new feature! lol)

shinohai: oh ok lemme fire up a VM

mod6: shinohai: that dpaste above was for you, should be good to go, need to recompile the orchastra with this included and test a bit...

mod6: is there a base link to this page? should be something like trb.btcbase.org or something

mod6: b: your link with patchset=stable looks correct at a glance. your chart is a bit different than mine

mod6: alright. so, a: i was looking at whatever was listed at btcbase.org/patches/funken_prikey_tools/

phf: so i suspect that whatever differences in press are a result of press algo. also funken is in an experimental set, and that's all the patches that i saw floating around that are not in the official release and not have been explicitly deprecated

mod6: that'll get me a good review of the code changes anyway.

deedbot: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Pete buys a minivan. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/05/07/pete-buys-a-minivan/

mod6: ;;later tell trinque your thoughts on this are much appreciated. hit me up when you get a chance to think on it.

a111: Logged on 2016-05-07 19:50 mircea_popescu: apparently there's a /download/ too but not linked from anywhere.

deedbot: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] The full in-house orchestra. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/05/07/the-full-in-house-orchestra/

mircea_popescu: apparently there's a /download/ too but not linked from anywhere. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: to click... or not to click. this is the BingoBoingolema. whether tis safer in silence to suffer the links and twinkles of outrageous rotundity, or to take a stand against a sea of blubber and, by refusing to click, forever disown them.

mod6: shinohai: ha, that guy made a mint for that.

mod6: i'll be back in a bit

mod6: alright Gentlemen, i gotta run to do this yard trimmings here for a bit.

shinohai: Not hard to setup, I just need a btc addy I can use for signing only. I tend not to reuse addys and misplace them >.<

shinohai: I need to make a damned coinbr account this weekend too if I'm gonna continue my Qntra experiment.

a111: Logged on 2016-05-07 15:27 mod6: ran across this page looks like it needs at least a name change for #trilema: http://deedbot.org/faq.html

mod6: > a bit

mod6: pm worked for me yesterday when i got booted from 'sandstorm' or whatever. i have noticed from time to time though, it just takes a bit to respond.

shinohai: I can put list of trusted nodes, etc on my site if we need them. Not sure who said they were going to make a new wiki page. :/

mod6: don't hesitate to drop me a line if you find something thatneeds an update.

mod6: oh good, thanks for reviewing those. there's a bunch of work in there we really need.

shinohai: Some of the foundation pages need tweaking too, I think I noticed old #b-a refs in them

mod6: ran across this page looks like it needs at least a name change for #trilema: http://deedbot.org/faq.html ☟︎

mod6: was just looking for non b-a steps for rain to follow to get reg'd in deedbot