tmsr - Log 2020-01-27

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dorion: ave1 I left you a comment though it didn't specifically say it went to moderation. I have it saved so let me know if you had any issue getting it.

feedbot: http://www.krankendenken.com/2020/01/mp-wp-bot-my-current-problem-and-possible-solutions/ << Krankendenken -- mp-wp bot: my current problem and possible solutions

mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957346 << honestly, somrthing that "suspended th service" ar all should just get ditched forthwith.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-26 16:22:00 lobbes: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957332 << long story short I went to do a 'dry run' install of everything on the shinjiru server and uncovered a host of snags that I'm currently ironing out (such as ports being blocked, them 'suspending' the service in error for a day, and my general derpage with basic sysadmin)

mircea_popescu: the natural counterbalance of a hallucinated right to "suspend" is the very real freedom to treat the hallucinator as a common scammer, which is PRECISELY what they are.

mircea_popescu: so yeah, i'd very much prefer anyone doing anything for me treat a "suspension" for any term and for any reason as === a lifetime ban of the alleged "provider"/scammer.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957358 << honestly, no. i think the "option" to "pick the special chars" was useful at the onset, when i was figuring out how the world should work, but double-parens is so well established by now, even etymologically! ("every time you go on a tanget, you have to decide -- is your paranthetical is simple or double?") that it needn't be misrepresented as an option anymore, a

mircea_popescu: s it's n olonger naything but. footnotes go into (( )) and that's that, there's no further optionality there.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-26 17:38:38 billymg: mircea_popescu: do you see any use for UI-set and DB-stored "options" in the footnotes plugin? the version in mp-wp has most of that commented out but it's still storing/referencing them which is causing weird behavior (and makes it so the only way you can override the options is to manually edit the db)

mircea_popescu: and in general, this is how "offering options" even works : sometimes portions of code function can't be figured out by the writer, has to be figured out by the user. thus things like the eulora gfx engine scriptable parts, or the mp-wp footnote options.

mircea_popescu: this also means the code's a preliminary, mock-up. as the user uses, the "options" become resolved into actual correct functioning, and the option-enabling portions get rewritten.

mircea_popescu: so you know, for having had useful users, mp-wp-footnotes matured. and for the opposite, crystal space not yet.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957361 << speaking of this in the foregoing context, the way mp-wp's ~only~ cookie works is well ripe for a rewrite.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-26 17:40:14 trinque: I can almost certainly steal someone's session cookie with a comment if they do what dpb suggests.

mircea_popescu: 1. there should be a users table, wherein existent users passwords are stored hashed.

mircea_popescu: 2. there should be a sessions table, where logged in users time of log-in, ip, user-agent, session cookie are stored. sessions older than 24h should be deleted server-side. the session cookie should be a hash of at least the ip, the user agent and server date-microtime.

mircea_popescu: 3. users logging in get the cookie passed and a new record in sessions on the basis of the pw thei provided hash-matching the one in users ; logged in users get recognized on the basis of ip, user agent and session cookie identity (all three).

mircea_popescu: steall all the cookies you want ; and mp-wp can even dispose with the htaccess ip lockdown mechanism currently in place.

mircea_popescu: as things stand now, 1 exists (though the hash could stand improvement) but 2 doesn't and 3 is sorta-implemented.

mircea_popescu: (but to answer trinque 's original comment : stolen cookies atm not useful on mp-wp because only specified ips can wp-admin anyway)

mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957363 << i don't understand why you think we care about this. what is this, regress all the things day or something ?

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-26 17:59:07 billymg: mircea_popescu: to elaborate: the original version of the footnotes plugin also includes an options.php page for saving db-stored settings. the version that http://btcbase.org/patches/mp-wp_add-footnotes-and-textselectionjs[ships with mp-wp] does not include this

mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957366 << how about your preference immediately becomes working on mp-wp as opposed to falsely claiming to be working on mp-wp while in fact trying to stick random unrelated garbage in there under this guise, because at the rate you're currently going im just about ready to set the bozo bit on whatever it is you do altogether.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-26 18:06:46 billymg: my preference would be for replacing 'default_options' and 'current_option' with a single 'option' object in the plugin, no longer storing these in db, and letting users edit that 'options' variable in the php file instead of having to manually edit the db

mircea_popescu: what the fuck is this nonsense, "the original" ? what fucking original ? the world starts here, not some other place.

mircea_popescu: footnotes plugin original, one, only, etcetera, is the one on mp-wp. what other garbage idiots did is garbage idiots did.

mircea_popescu: could be interesting for a lol. if you're using it for your basis you're way the fuck outta here.

mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957369 << a png has the disadvantage that i can't tell, for instance, what's a link or how the url looks.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-26 20:03:18 billymg: anyway i have something simple working, only took a few hours http://billymg.com/downloads/mp-wp-embedded-vpatch-snippets.png

mircea_popescu: in other sighs, /me excitedly checked who the fuck that ИМ ave1 resqued from the spam que might be, went over to "knowen.org", turns out it's yet another dumbass pointless pantsuit platform-wannabe, "protected by recaptcha" to crown the shit in turds.

mircea_popescu: why the fuck are you so dedicated anyway ? wrong place, ditch the heathens at the FIRST sign of trouble.

mircea_popescu: i walk out of shops / restaurants / whatever ALL the god damn time, for the simplest of reasons, such as "took more than thirty seconds to come for orders".

mircea_popescu: trinque, your blog is such a pain to navigate, dear god. so i want to see your previous article. well... there's no recent articles on the sidebar so i can't just ~see the title~ therefore eschew the need to click things. but let's see the archives... oh oops... this month's archive is entirely identical to you know, your latest article, for the first mile.

mircea_popescu: how's about recent comments in sidebar and title slug in archives, no content, so they can be useful for their intended purposes ?

diana_coman: sadly lobbes's hoster there turned out to have been quite as idiotic as they seemed in the first place

ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-21 04:13:30 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-20#1951637 - ugh, I have them on my list & contacted them via email but they must-account (though they did at least say they weren't all that bothered about actual address iirc).

mircea_popescu: also, nice that you've answered those two guys, but there's some waiting on the previous one as well : http://trinque.org/2019/12/28/a-republican-os-part-1/#comments

mircea_popescu: reading which, i daresay to dorion that "No one yet owns GCC, primarily because I've been waiting to see if ave1 will resurface" is pretty lulzy a cocnept.

mircea_popescu: i expect gcc will be the last owned portion, simply because of what horror it is.

diana_coman: hopefully it's not *that prospect* that keeps ave1 from resurfacing in the first place!

diana_coman: speaking of resurfacing, mocky.org is still down for me; Mocky, am I trying the wrong url/ip?

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-11 15:52:34 Mocky: getting it back up this weekend

mircea_popescu: 'sthematter mocky, do the girls let you off your baluba island cage half wour every other week ?

billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957382 << this was my feeling as well. i thought i'd check before proceeding to remove the code in case my judgement was incorrect. i will go ahead and remove it

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 08:36:22 mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957358 << honestly, no. i think the "option" to "pick the special chars" was useful at the onset, when i was figuring out how the world should work, but double-parens is so well established by now, even etymologically! ("every time you go on a tanget, you have to decide -- is your paranthetical is simple or double?") that it needn't be misrepresented as an optio

billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957400 << i was proposing removal of unnecessary code currently existing in mp-wp, not the addition of any. you can see from my patch history and communications in the logs that the removal of all cruft in mp-wp is what i'm working towards

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 08:55:58 mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957366 << how about your preference immediately becomes working on mp-wp as opposed to falsely claiming to be working on mp-wp while in fact trying to stick random unrelated garbage in there under this guise, because at the rate you're currently going im just about ready to set the bozo bit on whatever it is you do altogether.

billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957403 << and this is the one, in mp-wp, that currently includes code that actively writes options to db. i was proposing to remove any remnants of this completely and only leave what would essentially be some constants at the top of the file (though it sounds like even predefining some of these values at the top of the file is unnecessary and can be removed as well

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 08:56:47 mircea_popescu: footnotes plugin original, one, only, etcetera, is the one on mp-wp. what other garbage idiots did is garbage idiots did.

billymg: i only thought it necessary to check first in case this code was left around intentionally for some reason i wasn't grasping

billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957405 << i meant it only as a brief status update, though i should not have included the png without additional context (the line numbers are clickable and the URL anchors are to your spec, e.g. #S2-L10)

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 08:58:29 mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-26#1957369 << a png has the disadvantage that i can't tell, for instance, what's a link or how the url looks.

billymg: i will go ahead and remove the notion of options from the footnotes plugin and publish the patch for review. going forward i will make more of these calls on my own and let the published draft patches speak for themselves

mircea_popescu: there's notwring wrong with discussing the things, on the contrary. but let's read together what you said :

billymg: ah i see how that could read as "add new 'options' 'feature'". in my head i meant it as move from current: default_options -> db -> current_options -> code, to: options -> code

mircea_popescu: so keep on talking about what you do an' use the experience to talk ever more clearly.

mircea_popescu: in any case, why do you want to maintain the "options" object ? too much hassle to take out entirely ? more elegant to have all the magic strings in one place ?

billymg: understood. i think i'm also adapting to the async nature of IRC (you may not hear a response for a few hours, possibly days, so your communication should be clear enough to not require short-loop back-and-forth)

mircea_popescu: in the (ideally few) cases this is not feasible, people tend to mark their comms as such.

billymg: the latter was my thinking. even for experienced operator having the magic strings together at the top of the file might be useful / make the code easier to reason with

mircea_popescu: and the way this is then easiest handled (at least in part for legacy reasons) is as an "object" which gets preloaded, options.hurr = "durr" and so on ?

billymg: though it really wouldn't be any trouble to move those into single variable constants

mircea_popescu: in any case http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957437 is, however subjectively justified, nevertheless only a path to polarbeard sadness, it dun work out well.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 10:54:52 billymg: i will go ahead and remove the notion of options from the footnotes plugin and publish the patch for review. going forward i will make more of these calls on my own and let the published draft patches speak for themselves

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billymg: mircea_popescu: sorry for that, i didn't mean to be so dramatic with the "fine, i'll just work by myself then" -- i think i'm still working out the balance between check in with a question vs. implement and seek feedback. though on review it seems in this case it was more a matter of the clarity/information density of the question/communication

mircea_popescu: incidentally, it occurs to me discussion in #eulora is very relevant to the problem of bois, ie sexually and socially infantile but biologically overgrown males trying to "develop software"

ossabot: (eulora) 2020-01-27 mircea_popescu: ie, the kid who runs away from rural highschool to make it in town because he knows how hard multiplication or basic func analysis is, but doesn't know how hard making it in town is.

mircea_popescu: this situation reccurs in the history of the young human male's tribulations on earth, whereby he runs away from school because the well familiar small difficulties are TOO MUCH TO BEAR, and "nobody really knows" whether the much larger difficulties are even large or difficulties or anything, so "let's find out"

mircea_popescu: he couldn't learn a hundred lines of trivially repetitive multiplication table, but he'll manage subway and bus schedules.

mircea_popescu: he's got all the shit from the school bully he's gonna take, for chrissakes! therefore he'll deal with policemen, officious intermeddlers, people in suits and all the rest. anything but some pimply faced, overweight sixteen year old, he's been stuck with him for almost fourteen months and he knows well by now NOTHING COULD BE WORSE!!!

dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957374 - thank you. looks like I forgot the closing </a> tag on the link prior to the blockquote. do you mind fixing it ?

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 01:23:15 ave1: dorion, I got the pingpack and the comment went into spam, retrieved...

dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957420 - I sure hope not. ave1, if so please say ! I was mainly proceeding on previous talks of ownership and genesis in progress.

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 09:18:54 diana_coman: hopefully it's not *that prospect* that keeps ave1 from resurfacing in the first place!

ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-17 12:40:02 ave1: As to ownership, I can own gcc 4.9 and would like to work with trinque et. al. on this. The problem here is limited time, so my primary input can be information/communication at this point.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-17 12:42:50 ave1: I was genesing it, and will continue to do so. But with feedback in the loop. So, for example, gcc comes with an old STL html documentation tree, can this be dropped? (I would say yes)

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 13:32:08 mircea_popescu: dorion, you didn't do nuttin, it's his crowns an' thorns.

dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-27#1957474 - I didn't think I was pushing too hard, given his words. and thanks, I'm up for fun, but sometimes find being serious yields the most fun :)

ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 13:32:53 diana_coman: aww, dorion , that was my fun with it, don't take it all that seriously.

dorion: ave1 thanks for fixing the comment and likewise on the pushing/asking. way easier to deal with than silence :)

dorion: ave1 re gcc being overwhelming, why don't you take a step back from it for a bit and we work out a highlevel strategy first. for one, we're not even sure we want 4.9.4. did you see this ping ?

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-09 16:55:49 dorion_road: ave1 the latest on the gcc discussion is 4.4.7, 4.7.4 and 4.9.4 are up for consideration.

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dorion: the summary there is 4.4.7 is what mp mainly uses and 4.7.4 is what Gales Linux uses. 4.7.4 is the last gcc version to not require any c++ to bootstrap.

dorion: re 4.9.4 diana_coman noted GNAT and Eulora have been built/tested with it and it's unknown at present how earlier versions will fair on that front.

dorion: ave1 I hope those above lines didn't make it seem ~more~ overwhleming, but the bottom line I'd like to get across is yeah, there's a mountain of work and while it's all achievable it has to be sustainable. let's work with urguncy, but not haste and make sure our early decisions are properly weighed.

dorion: re overwhelming, to my eye the best thing you can do atm is make the work as public as possible so the people who want to help you can.