tmsr - Log 2019-12-19

jfw: Come to think of it, this stricter usage is compatible with what I'd read about what start-ups are, so not sure why I defaulted to the broader/confused notion for "involved with start-ups in any capacity", perhaps because lots call themselves things as you say.

lobbes: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955643 << I see what you mean now; there will always be a need to suss out a commonality in proper use of various public shit (or else it ends with the same "what republic?")

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 19:31:05 mp_en_viaje: if you'll ignore everything, then what's the point of talking ? if you'll ignore random things outside of even the possibility to prediction, then again what's the point of talking ? if there is some common ground, making at least some prediction possible, then what is it ?

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 19:16:09 mp_en_viaje: getting back to the whole "among they themselves" : the classical form of the sq in extremis was something along the lines of consules darent operam ne quid detrimenti res publica caperet ; videant consules ne res publica detrimenti capiat. let those guys in charge of things make sure the public shit dun get burned. there's gotta be some commonality for a republic to exist in the first place.

lobbes: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955640 << I'm hoping mike_c takes BingoBoingo's offer, as I think that process alone stands to carve some answers

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 19:26:33 mp_en_viaje: so the answer will probably have to carve itself a space within these two wires. now, how exactly, is what we're talking about.

BingoBoingo: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955608 << mp_en_viaje Aite, I have a sound argument. Gets more expensive every time it is played. Seems to be the strongest in favor of mike_c if only he takes it. Waited roughly a day to give him the deets http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955594

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 18:49:25 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-17#1955537 << no it doesn't, wut, im gonna get pissy at x because he made a sound argument ?

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 12:44:45 BingoBoingo: !Qlater tell mike_c Here's the strategy and why it is your best shot at recovering your coin http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=7sEi

BingoBoingo: lobbes: I do too for obvious reasons. Still more I hope he takes it for the less obvious effects.

BingoBoingo: mike_c: I recommend you hop into #agriculturalsupremacy #asciilifeform or #ossasepia to speak.

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955605 << I don't mean to say everything from modern computing is banned.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 18:44:31 jfw: "minimal possible bootable" seems a slippery goal, you could trim down to barely any OS at all. But then some pesky user comes along and wants graphics, and TCP, and to run on recent iron and then what.

trinque: What is banned is any decision from your graphics stack informing a decision on whether I have the shitwad of deps your graphics stack demands.

trinque: we can't build towards the purpose of e.g. running game/browser/etc, even if in the end a browser or game runs atop

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955611 << rather, I favor the approach of finding someone whose business processes suck, and who manages a good chunk of money

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 18:50:33 jfw: trinque: one approach is if money flows and wants patching support, to sell subscriptions covering some defined set of things. Do such clients exist? I don't know but seems like these tend to be large corps already in submission to USG and can just as well buy RedHat

trinque: build them a process that does not suck atop your tool, and let the changes to said tool flow from their needs and yours.

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955615 << so then your inputs to the process are haxed, and you go diligently dispatch btc to 1HaxFuckYou

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 18:54:55 jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-14#1955362 - that'd be why I'm sewing an air-gapped wallet by hand. No amount of software-level patching can protect 1000btc sitting on networked PC I figure.

trinque: it's worth mentioning at this point that I'm a deeply self-critical man. obviously the airgapped wallet approach is exactly what I did with deedbot

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955617 << it solves only the pretense of being "not to blame" while still being very much to blame

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 19:04:35 jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-14#1955376 - to make my reasons for inclusion by reference rather than importing trees explicit, even if bad: on my own I was certainly in no position to pay the maintenance debts of all those projects, so I wanted some separation between my own work and them. As I see it now, the trouble is this doesn't actually solve anything if you still have to use

trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955630 << it depends perhaps on whether one intends there to be recourse from negrating

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 19:20:11 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-17#1955571 << consider the matter of services. this question pops in all over the place, alf was all over trinque re "what happens with deedbot if i get negrated". i din't invent this question, it's been recurring, mod6 asked me at some point something similar

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 19:25:18 mp_en_viaje: and no "fuck it, just keep it" ain't much of an answer, because if nothing else this provides the most perverse incentive imaginable.

trinque: it would call all my ratings into question if I could simply snatch the coins of anyone I negrated

trinque: if anyone, I'd want a man unwilling to steal, so help him god, running the money tables

mp_en_viaje: i wonder if anyone in istanbul's having as much fun as me post morning calls to prayer.

mp_en_viaje: they worship, i whorship, just as long as it's not the workshop who the he'lls to worry sheep.

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955666 << how can truth wear out with use! only lies are one-shot (in an ideal world).

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 21:57:33 BingoBoingo: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955608 << mp_en_viaje Aite, I have a sound argument. Gets more expensive every time it is played. Seems to be the strongest in favor of mike_c if only he takes it. Waited roughly a day to give him the deets http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955594

mp_en_viaje: kinda ~same lulz in lebanon these days. all the pinoy houseworkers / ugly-but-workable-2ndwife / smileyface-paperbag-whores are flocking at the pinoy embassy, "oh, they barely pay 1/4 what they used to, we're outta here"

BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: Tonight was the "fin de año" gathering at the Cowork, just the same as when I arrived 12-7-2017. Crowd noticably smaller this year.

BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: It's grinding, have not yet found half of 500 without turning towards the US. Will end up posting disk destruction pics tomorrow as 2 WoT'd folks viewed. 500 DC's I applied to blogging may not happen without applying to ones inside the zone.

BingoBoingo: Have some local leads on sysadmin jobs which are in the getting to know you phase.

mp_en_viaje: interesting how virtuous circles drive virtue an' the republic itself much like vicious circles drive sin an' the pantsuit itself!!!! /aesop

BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: Sadly so... it's not a pretty picture. Biggest change since 2017 is less operators run more ops.

mp_en_viaje: but whatever, right, "el campo hay que pagar tambien", the government's "taking care" of this world while they independence &c all over themselves.

mp_en_viaje: possibly the most annoying part about argentina being argentina is that all the other-same zeks upnorth look at it and imagine they're different & speshul. while doing the EXACT fucking same thing, if coincidentaly the southern printing press had gotten bigger and the northern had stayed small when the chinese showed up to put white man's world on life support -- EVERYTHING woulkd have been the EXACT same.

mp_en_viaje: the argies'd be "tjhe biggest couintry in thr world" and "buying russia" while "impeaching kristina" while the northerns'd have been driving into canada for ciggarettes.

mp_en_viaje: they both do this as it is, but it's "not relevant" because "bigger themes". except those "bigger themes" are 100% driven by historical accident and naught else entirely at all whatsoever.

BingoBoingo: Lol, Kristina's the VP as of last week. Kinda wondering when Argentina will threaten invasion here.

BingoBoingo: Her buttpuppet Albert already dropped all of the low hanging fruit that strains Arg-Uru relations.

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955673 << well... in #asciilifeform to commiserate, i guess. otherwise there's also #trinque and iirc #spyked

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 22:07:57 BingoBoingo: mike_c: I recommend you hop into #agriculturalsupremacy #asciilifeform or #ossasepia to speak.

BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: The shortlist came from channels with folks I've eaten pizza with this month.

BingoBoingo: Both visits were pleasant. Now that I'm not tied to a rack I'll certainly have to see Northern Latino lands.

mp_en_viaje: speaking of which i stuffed the sluts fulla boza yest. which they fucking love, above kvas even (found some utterly delish sweet kvas depicted on left)

mp_en_viaje: that's it for now on mp's graduate beer alternatives course. till we get to egypt at least i guess.

mp_en_viaje: but i must say, there's something in no way short of fabulous in taking a woman to a place completely incomprehensible, structured in manners irreducible to her own experience, and demaning a choice, and then applying the choice. "you want this ? a you do ? ok, now drink it!"

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955677 << this may even be so. but trinque , have mercy : in obtaining any desired result, the manager has indeed to await patiently for ~all possible~ results be delivered ? there is NO possibility of choice available, you mean, in the sense of none ~at all~ ?

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 22:30:19 trinque: we can't build towards the purpose of e.g. running game/browser/etc, even if in the end a browser or game runs atop

mp_en_viaje: because this seems an even more drastic & destructurating criticism of engineering than my own.

mp_en_viaje: this is how people have heirs, "you'll get a good son just as soon as she's popped all the kids she had in her and no sooner."

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955679 << well, on the upside, considering they're doing it they can also favour whatever the hell they're favouring it, and then we see how it goes. that's how medicine is built, out of carcasses ~that lived~.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 22:32:19 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955611 << rather, I favor the approach of finding someone whose business processes suck, and who manages a good chunk of money

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955681 << here's the dilemma : when starting a slutteria, you can either approach girls who would make great sluts, or girls who want to be sluts. sure, sometimes you might find the willing talent, but this is besides the point, that's her merit. the point is your process, and you're tooled for either one or the other.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 22:33:15 trinque: build them a process that does not suck atop your tool, and let the changes to said tool flow from their needs and yours.

mp_en_viaje: now, admitting you're good at what you do as only god himself can ever be, here are your outcomes : if you go for girls that would make great sluts, and you make them great sluts, what if they ask "ok, so ?" when you're done ? ie, they ARE great sluts now, where they'd have been just wasted potential before, but they... do not see it ? they don't perceive anything relevant has changed at all ?

mp_en_viaje: (meanwhile, of course, if you go for the willing, well... you know. like curing the deaf, "i think i can hear better now" "really ?" "yeah, if i get really excited about it, kinda feels like i'm hearing". "bitch... please.")

mp_en_viaje: there's the distinct possibility they do build such better thing, and the corp that lived with the worse one reverts to it, because can't tell the difference.

mp_en_viaje: not that i'm saying you're wrong in some kinda absolute way. but... well, gotta moderate expectations.

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955686 << but obviously the forestated problem is there ; especially ~with anonymity~ baked in. which is a problem, which i've discussed on trilema because of this, but it's also very difficult to digest. it's one of those "against-the-grain" problems, like the problemi of the 20yo not getting excited.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 22:36:59 trinque: it's worth mentioning at this point that I'm a deeply self-critical man. obviously the airgapped wallet approach is exactly what I did with deedbot

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955691 << there's always recourse, from everything. think about it, how could a recourseless world work ? would it be anything like the recoilless gun ? action without reaction where, "in outer space" ?

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 22:41:04 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955630 << it depends perhaps on whether one intends there to be recourse from negrating

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955697 << which is a major pillar of why a foundation was even contemplated in the original "wtf to do" spec.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 23:07:30 trinque: arguably torching coin in this scenario is preferable to reposessing it.

mp_en_viaje: speaking of which, anyone recall back in the bitbet pioneering shutdown days, when i proposed a process and ben_vulpes got all suspicious, "omfg, he aims to keep it!!!"

mp_en_viaje: anyway, to get back to the "recourse from negrating" thing -- you and him argue, i'm definitely getting stuck with making some choices. there's no out of this, and it doesn't matter what you load into "you, him, i".

mp_en_viaje: what's more, this has played out quite a few times to date, it either dies from inconsequence ("and so who the fuck are you and him anyways ?"), is resolved through some kinda mediation ("how about instead of fucking each other you do x and live ?") or else "you/him is a complete fuckwad, get the fuck lost, i can't even believe you can have this problem."

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-19 00:23:27 BingoBoingo: There is a tentative agreement.

mp_en_viaje: jfw, " or at any rate that the costs of such a change be born by he who makes it" << be borne. diff word, to bear, entirely unrelated to birth.

mp_en_viaje: i mean uh. the word's the same, ye olde beran, but the participle / past tense of it is "borne" in all cases when you're not talking of actual birth.

mp_en_viaje: http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2019/review-of-polarbeard_add_sendrawtransaction_rpcvpatch/ << but anyways, cuteness, jfw discovering the horrors of satoshi bitcoin. most of the insanity you discover in the guy's patch is just carried over.

mp_en_viaje: in other minutuous mindblowia updates, im lying on my bed here IN THE HOTEL ROOM, pile of assorted cigarillos and respectable ashtray to the side, fucking SMOKING.

mp_en_viaje: they even thoughtfully provide matches, in case you're out. old style, hotel branded boxes, like it were nyc 1969 all over again.

mp_en_viaje: goes quite well after a lazy breakfast consisting of a sampler of halva we bought in this little shop in the edirne bazaar (which is pretty fucking cool btw), assorted dried fruits, ayran, tahin, chestnuts an' whatnot. i'm very roundly sated and just as thoroughly satisfied.

diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955640 - the only possible way I can see is exactly as it seems to be set to go aka negrated may find someone to speak for them and based on the arguments presented a decision will be made; not sure what more can be directly said/specified upfront and in general.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 19:26:33 mp_en_viaje: so the answer will probably have to carve itself a space within these two wires. now, how exactly, is what we're talking about.

BingoBoingo: !!rate mike_c 2 After a long absence came to swift submission to Republican WoT power structure at a greater cost to self than initially proposed

deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=gD04

deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of mike_c from -1 to 2 << After a long absence came to swift submission to Republican WoT power structure at a greater cost to self than initially proposed

BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: Despite the long absence mike_c has made a substantial act of submission to the Republican power structure as gated by the Web of Trust. Over time, the bar for demonstrations of submission made by absentees that should have known better... I can only see it rising. Hence the screw turns clarification on the strategy last night

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-19 00:23:14 BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: The truth doesn't wear out. The screw however turns with time.

BingoBoingo: Per the agreement mike_c has made a payment to me for my voice in the forum with no provision for any refund to himself. He chose this demonstration after being offered the cheaper alternative of instead sweating out his ammends in the Qntra newsmines

BingoBoingo: In the general case I see a -1 or -2 negrating as a sort of "caution", but I find it hard to read a -10 as anything other than the recipient being marked as future salt-pork that happens to maybe be on the hoof at the time of rating.

BingoBoingo: It didn't take many lines of conversation or a whole hour for mike_c to find that the after missing out on things over the years like the entire history of an ISP... An actual demonstration of the value of WoT position and the barriers presented by WoT gating was his best possible demonstration of submission.

BingoBoingo: The problem of the Republic and the Negrated is not "What does the Republic owe the negrated", the problem is... are those negrated for their absence capable of submission after returning. Is doing something other than submitting an option they hallucinate.

BingoBoingo: After being brought up to speed on relevant matters the Republic has explored in his extended absence, mike_c countered my proposal with one that sees him out an extra 5 BTC over my initial proposed structure whether he recovers his coin or not.

BingoBoingo: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-19#1955771 << Great letter indeed. Kinda why it got the treatment and not the hallucinatory shit except as presented by the letter.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-19 01:28:53 mp_en_viaje: http://qntra.net/2019/12/democratically-elected-us-president-donald-trump-writes-letter-to-pantsuit-nancy/ << pretty great letter huh.

diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-19#1955792 - how do you reason to get to the conclusion that the qntra contribution is cheaper alternative? The way I see it, the choice clearly spells that mike_c considers the 30 btc as the cheaper option compared to putting in the effort& time on qntra for the interval you requested.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-19 10:04:00 BingoBoingo: Per the agreement mike_c has made a payment to me for my voice in the forum with no provision for any refund to himself. He chose this demonstration after being offered the cheaper alternative of instead sweating out his ammends in the Qntra newsmines

BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Well, certainly both options had dimensions in which they are cheaper than the other.

BingoBoingo: diana_coman: And per the agreement if he recovers coin the total damage is 40 BTC as he sends 10 BTC to asciilifeform. http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-18#1003953

ossabot: (asciilifeform) 2019-12-18 mike_c: BingoBoingo: I changed my mind, and my offer to hire you: I send you fee of 30 BTC (same amount the mpex account cost coincidentally). If you lose the case and I don't recover my dividend, you send 10 BTC to ascii (nothing to me). If you win and I do recover, then I send 10 BTC to ascii (and you keep the 30). in case of partial recovery, i dunno, we do something gentlemanly.

diana_coman: so basically he wants to give 10BTC to asciilifeform out of the coin he otherwise was even rather ready to consider lost anyway.

BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Right. As asciilifeform is still politically alligned with the Republic, I find the proposal agreeable in creating a second opportunity to demonstrate continuing submission.

diana_coman: hm; I think it shows non-agressiveness; whether submission, I don't quite see it.

BingoBoingo: Under my original proposal in the event mike_c's coin was not returned I would have refunded him 10 BTC reducing the damage to 25 BTC. Under this structure, mike_c is out 30 BTC minimum, outcome independent.

BingoBoingo: Maybe you don't want to call it submission, but it is an acknowledgement of the Republic as Sovereign.

BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Note also what mike_c did not do. He did not go shopping around for a lower bidding lord after I gave him the strategy and then clarified the strategy, catching him up on where the Republic has advanced during his absence.

BingoBoingo: I really don't see how in this case mike_c could have demonstrated "non-aggression" alone. For his action, he actively acknowledged WoT supremacy. For his recognition of WoT supremacy, laziness has a demonstrable cost.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-17 05:00:55 mp_en_viaje: i get we're basically getting scammed by the duplicitous nature of the lazy, and will be, forever. cuz that's how the world goes, that's how laziness survives as a survival mechanism in the first place. but i'd much rather we understand each other on the topic, than it just proceed on my authority and then whatever, ten years later it'll be "mp just shouldn't have paid all these asshats" or who the fuck knows what

BingoBoingo: There is a sharp edge facing those who fall of the wrong side of the WoT map. It cleaves.

diana_coman: BingoBoingo: as things stand, he is at any rate after getting the coin to use outside tmsr; because can't yet "find time" or whatever; sure, some price to pay for getting it out, that much his actions acknowledge + some appreciation for asciilifeform's work, certainly.

diana_coman: that's where I find it hard to buy the "submission" thing, at the "get it to use it outside" bit.

diana_coman: ftr I do NOT mean that he shouldn't get the coin or anything of the sort; I literally mean what I say above namely that I don't see how does that qualify for submission.

BingoBoingo: mike_c gave us what Daphna Waxman didn't. Sure, Daphna Waxman is salt pork that happens to maybe still be on the hoof. If Daphna Waxman ever shows up... for mike_c's decision to make a deal... there is a screw to be turned.

BingoBoingo: The fact that he valued voice, whether MPEx pays him out or not... I don't see how that isn't submission. In his best case he gets coin out, maybe he does turn it all over to hostile parties. He agreed that in his worst case where MPEx does not pay him out... his coin stays with Republican interests.

diana_coman: BingoBoingo: looking at it from the other side, do you mean to say that if someone comes tomorrow willing to pay 30 btc to have some issue heard in the forum (on which they also stand to possibly get more than the 30 btc as the most favourable result) then it follows that they submitted to tmsr?

BingoBoingo: diana_coman: If someone comes on a day after mike_c is paid out by MPEx, I can't imagine this hypothetical next person would receive any offer for voice nearly as cheap as 30 BTC.

diana_coman: in the case where MPEx does not pay him out, I don't see how he has a say into what happens to the coin so I fail to see how is that part meaningful; if he wants the coin to be paid to asciilifeform entirely then he can do so once he gets it, no? if he doesn't get it, then he can't say what is to be done with it.

diana_coman: ugh, I don't like much this precedent on precedent alone but maybe that's just me.

diana_coman: anyway, I admit by now I'm quite curious as to what the others in L1 have to say.

BingoBoingo: diana_coman: If mike_c doesn't get paid it sends the signal that TMSR doesn't ever deal, following this external relations is difficult because of the "What the hell can a lord do for me" objection. If mike_c gets paid, TMSR matters, WoT matters, and voice has value as can be demonstrated through the outcome of the case... but the precedent is not sufficiently restrictive so as to prevent future tightening, refusals, etc.

diana_coman: and moreover I don't think it's signalling that should be a concern really (in this case or in another).

BingoBoingo: This is a republic of men, not laws. The second order effects, benefits or hazards that follow a decision seem to be of incredible importance.

diana_coman: BingoBoingo: I really hope this case is not going to be argued on "perceived signals of decision A vs those of decision B".

diana_coman: might as well towards-purposing all along; that's not at all what "republic of men, not laws" means to me.

ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-19 10:03:44 BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: Despite the long absence mike_c has made a substantial act of submission to the Republican power structure as gated by the Web of Trust. Over time, the bar for demonstrations of submission made by absentees that should have known better... I can only see it rising. Hence the screw turns clarification on the strategy last night

BingoBoingo: mike_c agreed to pay substantially for representation along WoT lines. If he gets paid out and retreats forever back to Pantsuit dreamland or gets aggressive... he'll set a good precedent for closing the window that got him paid for all later comers.

BingoBoingo: Anyways, we've got this Republic which is sovereign. We've got a lord of lords in MP. Does not paying mike_c maximize coin that certainly stays inside TMSR, sure. Does not paying mike_c reduce the space in which Lords can credibly extract rents from those who've touched Pantsuit in the past, I very strongly suspect so. If we consider the cause of increasing the power of the Lordship over Pantsuit Delusonists...

BingoBoingo: Which outcome in this case leaves a borader path open for someone's pages to ask Hussein Bahamas eat a bowl of lumberjack shit in exchange for a literal coinflip that will determine whether or not the page escalates his plea for a small mercy to the page's lord?

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/12/pantsuit-nancy-shows-cold-feet-after-pushing-through-impeachment-may-not-forward-impeachment-to-senate-for-trial/ << Qntra -- Pantsuit Nancy Shows Cold Feet After Pushing Through Impeachment May Not Forward Impeachment To Senate For Trial

lobbes: BingoBoingo: So if I'm understanding correctly, your argument rests on two things: 1) one must demonstrate submission to Republican processes (thus recognizing the sovereignty of tmsr) 2) your client has demonstrated submission with his acceptance to pay you 30 btc for voice

lobbes: It does not look like there is any disagreement on 1. However the question of whether 2 is an actual demonstration of submission seems like it is still open.

lobbes: fwiw I can see how it can be argued as submission, primarily because BingoBoingo's client has agreed to pay a fee regardless of the outcome.

ericbot: Logged on 2019-12-19 17:50:35 BingoBoingo: Under my original proposal in the event mike_c's coin was not returned I would have refunded him 10 BTC reducing the damage to 25 BTC. Under this structure, mike_c is out 30 BTC minimum, outcome independent.

BingoBoingo: lobbes: And less the process. It is about submission to the structure of authority.

lobbes: BingoBoingo: This makes sense on reflection, as it would seem like pegging things specifically to process is a dubious path to walk