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BingoBoingo: Breaking down the Pizarro disks we discovered... Some platters don't shatter
BingoBoingo: As in all of the platters from the few spinnign rust drives in the rack. After having been sanded they are soaking in a Tomato+ColaBlack sauce on the camp stove.
BingoBoingo: Heavy on the salt.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/12/saudi-air-force-lieutenant-shoots-up-naval-air-station-pensacola/ << Qntra -- Saudi Air Force Lieutenant Shoots Up Naval Air Station Pensacola
trinque: /join #asciilifeform
trinque: lol, whoops!
BingoBoingo: Report on the local kids: small but slowly growing crowd where crowds normally grow on the Rambla. One 'Republicana' Police tank parked near the Montevideo sign. At least one helicopter flying low and angrily sweeping its spotlight all over with no apparent purpose other than to "be seen". Several pairs of motorcycle cops riding along the side streets, also likely with the "be seen" mission. The amount of kids present in the spot
BingoBoingo: drawing attention is typical of a Thursday night at this hour. Meanwhile a number of the smaller forgettable plaza have above average, but still unimpresive crowds.
mp_en_viaje: oh gmorning
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-07#1954475 << o wow really ? what, moved on from glass-ceramic into metal ?!
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-07 20:15:41 BingoBoingo: Breaking down the Pizarro disks we discovered... Some platters don't shatter
BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: Aluminum. Apparently looking into it, aluminum platters are not rare.
mp_en_viaje: oh
mp_en_viaje: i thought for a moment they did that artificial nacre thing
BingoBoingo: They dented.
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in keks, https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614842/china-us-ai-military-spending/
BingoBoingo: lol, they'll talk about anything but the missile gap that matters
mp_en_viaje: "oh, we were worried china outspends us on $random-nonsense-we-made-up-specifically-so-as-to-have-it-all-to-ourselves" "why were you worried about that ?" "so we have somtething to talk about" "ah, okay"
mp_en_viaje: i know some rural dumb cunts very much like the us. nobody outspends them on kerngknekjvsdfks.
mp_en_viaje: in fact, nobody even heard of it. nobody ELSE.
diana_coman: as I ended up doing a long log-crawl on v-matters because it's still bugging me, I found several discussions on spaces vs tabs but overall I can't tell what the current conclusion is on this: does anyone know?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-30 12:34:56 diana_coman: mircea_popescu: trouble is that it's *not* development that is painful-er, not at all; it's...publishing that is painfuller and I doubt that has any merits.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, i still believe
mp_en_viaje: \t should be used for tabulature and \s for individual spaces.
mp_en_viaje: forced-size tabs are stupid, because maybe i want the tab displayed as eight, or maybe i want mine displayed as two. it's not something that should be fixed at write-time, much like paragraph flow is to be decided when the paragrap
mp_en_viaje: 's displayed.
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: do you mean the vpatch should contain literally "\s" or what?
mp_en_viaje: no, \s is not ambiguous, it can only mean " ". for the same money you
mp_en_viaje: re not held to replace all * with &ask; or wjhatever.
diana_coman: some people space code with \t precisely in the idea that you can set it to whatever you want it to be; others with spaces; and looking back through those discussions it seems to go one way and then the other and overall I have no idea if there was some conclusion to this or it remained up to each vpatch author or whatevers.
mp_en_viaje: however tabs can ONLY be described as \t. a succession of spaces IS NOT a tab. only \t is a tab. a succession of spaces is a succession of spaces, even if "it looks the same" on some particular hw-sw combo
diana_coman: well yes, ofc.
mp_en_viaje: i was firmly on the \t ; asciilifeform did not like it, wanted to do the dumb thing. ~nobody else said much on the topic, and he quashed discussion with "who's gonna fix all the dumb code already written by all the other dumb people"
mp_en_viaje: at which point i gave up that line.
diana_coman: indeed, \t or space, no other option exists really.
mp_en_viaje: i expect the discussion still stands now as then : you can either do the sane thing or the dumb thing ; doing the sane thing's burdened by the anal child argument that indeed a lot of dumbasses have already been permitted to shit into the discussion
mp_en_viaje: indeed it seems to me one who's not capable to on his own mental power discover how to use the button over the caps lock and the button between the alts when first given a computer is also, and for that archsufficient reason, not qualified to ever touch one, or be included in any computer anything.
diana_coman: myeah; honestly, reviewing the whole V-stuff, the part that bugs me most turns around exactly this sort of thing: the core idea as I see it was that "code is text" and therefore it should be discussed and read and undersigned and referenced and all that intertextuality and context and all; in practice there are the vtools providing some of the mechanics, there's a spread of discussions going every which way and otherwise there's rather ...
diana_coman: ... too much silence.
mp_en_viaje: sadly.
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: I don't know re that as such; ie I don't mind it either way, whether \t or space, I don't see it as a huge problem.
diana_coman: or a problem at all really.
mp_en_viaje: it isn't a huge problem, which is why it wasn't particularly resolved, then. or i guess now. or ever be
mp_en_viaje: but since you asked...
diana_coman: the \t thing is at times annoying because the key is also mapped to other stuff but that is arguably a matter of "set the workbench so it's not"
mp_en_viaje: for that matter, running strings over the output of one bringing up lots and lots of gggg pppp rrrrrrrr etc suggests monkley rather than man involvement.
mp_en_viaje: much like all the ooga-booga languages are suspect, and so on.
mp_en_viaje: lotta windows users are like that, most of their keyboard usage is repetitive pressings on the same key. which is i suppose how people even came up with the "hey, make the screen a single button and be done with it" next node of "improvement"
diana_coman: hm, maybe.
mp_en_viaje: the other node of the argument, to be perfectly fair, is that a lang editor that ~doesn't~ auto-tabulate is thereby broken ; and perhaps the case stands that a language wherein this can't be done -- is also broken.
mp_en_viaje: seems that he also said something along these lines, making the man-maintained space-tab distinction a bit of a monkeyism itself.
diana_coman: eh, let me hereby inform the forum that in my current investigations of v-tronicity, I have managed therefore to crash (repeatedly!) the nano editor! with SIGFPE, arithmetic exception!
mp_en_viaje: wut did you do ?!
diana_coman: opened up a vpatch from a dir eg nano -wF patches/some.vpatch and then from inside attempted to open another vpatch that was however in dir "a" - apparently it crashes; I did not yet spend more time to find out exactly why/where/how.
diana_coman: but yeah, talking of editors...
diana_coman: it's the first time I manage to crash nano like this but I suppose it won't be the last time.
mp_en_viaje: you should probably write this up ; i'd like to reproduce for one thing and no, i never had nano crash yet.
diana_coman: by now I have stuff to write up, down and every other way really.
mp_en_viaje: heh.
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in "pantyhose sucks, do yourself a favour an' never wear it" documentation, http://archive.is/hWIaV/d3066736bfbd35e181880f20964f02c879e7d9b2.jpg
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-08#1954513 << this is not a problem peculiar to that particular corner, either. people who write, write. people who don't write, don't write. the two aren't really the same thing, you can give some rope so type-1 individuals finding themselves in a type-2 tradition renounce and extricate themselves. but that's about as far as it goes.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 16:10:17 diana_coman: ... too much silence.
mp_en_viaje: the unexamined/rationalized life still delivers at the end the same exact death.
diana_coman: maybe; to my eye there is also the annoying layer of "oh, I'm too busy writing about MY stuff to read (as in properly review and/or sign) other people's stuff.
diana_coman: basically code literacy has still quite a way to go or something.
mp_en_viaje: conceivably usage should be the regulator of that
mp_en_viaje: but yes, code literacy is as novel a concept now as it was in knuth's time, as it was in 600 ad.
mp_en_viaje: incidentally : the oldest... trackway, shall we call it ? in the world was in use since 600 bc to about the first century. it permitted boats to cross the isthmus of corinth, it was maintained and operated for the general public like any other tramway.
diana_coman: waterway?
mp_en_viaje: then the concept took a hiatus for a good baker's dozen centuries.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, no, the isthmus is landmass. it was basically wooden railroad.
diana_coman: oh, they moved the boats on that? I thought they had some part to flood for the purpose or something (because yes, isthmus is landmass)
mp_en_viaje: the loads guided with separate pin/groove arrangements, rather than the familiar wheel retainers, and the thing built out of wood. but, historically, a TRAIN refers to a horse-drawn wagon arrangement.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, nope, involved no flooding. just dragged the damned things over specially made, elevated... rail.
diana_coman: I see.
mp_en_viaje: (originally, these were wood, both in collieries and otherwise. then metal sheeting was added on top, to reduce wear / improve friction. then to deal with the buckle, the rail became all-metal.)
mp_en_viaje: the greeks didn't have metal casting so never did that.
mp_en_viaje: anyway, back to the point : who knows, given all the passive resistance, code literacy may even have to wait 1500-3500-wharever years.
diana_coman: or it gets pushed first and it becomes the new fashion, "was there any other way??"
mp_en_viaje: fwis all these apparent successes have hidden economic counters underneath that are often not understood until a long time passes.
mp_en_viaje: consider if you will the case of sir thomas bouch, referenced to relatively little effect in the recent engineering discussion.
mp_en_viaje: this fellow was a bright sixteen year old, who took an apprenticeship in the hot thing of the time, the one happening place for bright young minds : metalworking.
mp_en_viaje: he didn't remain in liverpool, but he returned home, and with a merry gang of equally enthusiastic entrepreneurs an' worldchangers he set out to... change the world.
mp_en_viaje: which they did -- at the time the first bridge over the tay was proposed (by him), everyone thought it madness.
mp_en_viaje: a decaded and change later, after the queen (victoria!) was driven over water on the result of that madness, she liked it enough to declare it fundamentally constituent and relevant part of her kingdom (different from the realm she ruled, much like one's wife is different from the woman living in his house, as a product of directed imagination, a projection of reason). he was knighted as a side-effect of this.
mp_en_viaje: then once that bridge fell, all sorts of "unsympathetic" "expert" witnesses, who were in fact younger men, ~of the coming generation~, and who in fact did get to re-build all the things he either built or designed, had things to say.
mp_en_viaje: it was not self-evident at the time, to the participants, that ALL they had to say reduced to "we are younger men, and you are old. and it is our time to enthuse"
diana_coman: hm; kind of got from young to old in 9 years though
mp_en_viaje: which it was. but neither bouch, nor anyone else "accused" or "under suspicion" during the proceedings -- all of them his friends, incidentally, the gilkes making dubious passive-agressive comments in the vein of "knowing how treacherous a thing cast iron is, but if an engineer gave me such a thing to make I should make it without question, believing that he had apportioned the strength properly" had been his partner for thirty years at t
mp_en_viaje: hat time. the things they built, that were ALL THE THINGS BUILT, they built together.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, from young to old in the thirty years between 20 and 50, actually.
mp_en_viaje: my point being : gilkes DIED BANKRUPT. it's not that bouch "did the bad", that he "left the sacred principles of good engineering behind". if this he did -- what did gilkes do, leave the "sacred principles of businessmanship behind ?"
diana_coman: hm, I took 9 years from 1870 (bridge building started in 1871) to 1879 (bridge collapsed one year after opening)
mp_en_viaje: there was economy underneath, yes, but not the kind the naive want to make it out.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, a yes, that. but by the time someone would venture money in 71, they had been extremely successful for 20 years.
mp_en_viaje: so successful in fact they altered the public space significantly, like after some guy from nigeria wom the olympics all nigerian kids were now swimmers or w/e
diana_coman: ah, that certainly (for both successful for 20 years and the gilkes part, sure)
mp_en_viaje: anyway, the situation bears striking similarity to the case of the "patriotic" apuseni thieves.
mp_en_viaje: the bridge, contrary to what kids would love to believe, and their mothers prefer to pretend for expediency's sake, did not hold or fall because of what bouch said, or did.
mp_en_viaje: man's impact on the world surroundant's a lot less manifest than that.
diana_coman: hm, the bridge was his folly in that he should have retired while not yet "the old one, it's time for us"?
mp_en_viaje: and that'd have delivered... what ?
mp_en_viaje: i honestly do not thing he should've anything, besides perhaps not be surprised, like in that old ro joke.
diana_coman: presumably his pension, nothing more.
mp_en_viaje: i do not believe he did anything undefensible at any point, let alone culpable.
diana_coman: but yes, essentially not being surprised, indeed.
mp_en_viaje: they didn't have pensions back then iirc.
diana_coman: whatever, his keeping the title or something.
mp_en_viaje: (the joke : don't think ; but if you must think don't say ; but if you say at least don't write ; and if you write do not sign. but if you sign -- don't be surprised)
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, the queen didn't take it back anwyays, iirc.
diana_coman: iirc he also died quite soon after that so he was truly done anyway, there is that.
mp_en_viaje: he WAS surprised.
diana_coman: aha; hence: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-08#1954580
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 16:58:58 diana_coman: but yes, essentially not being surprised, indeed.
mp_en_viaje: much like ceausescu, you know ? there he finds himself, among young men for once. for once in a logn while. and he still, he doesn't quite see how it'll go. he's surrprised by the chain of events. i dunno, seems fucking obvious.
mp_en_viaje: a lot more becomes obvious once one turns off the elohim caliban wordmakin' rattle
diana_coman: basically not realising that "not my time anymore" -> http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-08#1954575
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 16:58:04 diana_coman: hm, the bridge was his folly in that he should have retired while not yet "the old one, it's time for us"?
mp_en_viaje: basically
mp_en_viaje: though i dunno he should retire. i suspect he should take teenaged fucktoys.
diana_coman: that's *also* retirement!
mp_en_viaje: it helps if one doesn't attempt to simultaneously live and exist within a "society", ie a list of bad "no" answers to fundamental questions.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, i suppose "he should've retired broadly construed".
mp_en_viaje: but then again, everyone should do that. i started doing it in my 20s.
mp_en_viaje: hard to not do it all the time, you know ?
diana_coman: well, I always wanted to do that rather than anything else, what can I tell you.
mp_en_viaje: lol
mp_en_viaje: now, much like "engineering" is the supposed "thing sir bouch betrayed", that a) only exists retrospectively and b) only can be constructed by young men
mp_en_viaje: stands this http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-08#1954553 thing. it can only become such a thing a) retrospectively and b) through the working of authority. much like the imaginary "french resistence" in ww2.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 16:43:30 diana_coman: or it gets pushed first and it becomes the new fashion, "was there any other way??"
mp_en_viaje: in reality, no such wonder existed. but in 1950, de gaulle was looking for legitimacy, and so a counterfit past was invented for him.
diana_coman: well sure, how else
mp_en_viaje: it wasn't much divergent from his own personal past ; but it was well divergent from everyone else's.
mp_en_viaje: right.
mp_en_viaje: "young men" aka men without history, that's what's there : you can only take for your own the past of another if you don't have much past of your own.
mp_en_viaje: the pantsuit drive to cleave history from existence, incidentally, is a lot more successful a ploy than their derpy http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-08#1954492
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 09:47:49 mp_en_viaje: "oh, we were worried china outspends us on $random-nonsense-we-made-up-specifically-so-as-to-have-it-all-to-ourselves" "why were you worried about that ?" "so we have somtething to talk about" "ah, okay"
diana_coman: history is quite an expensive thing to have anyway.
mp_en_viaje: and if you must have, at least don't sign
diana_coman: aha.
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in everyday living, there's much more accessible rack-and-pinions. "don't write " " when you mean "\t", god damn it! and such
diana_coman: ahaha; but yes, what's with all those hierogliphs anyway, slash and a bended sword!!
diana_coman: bent*
diana_coman: oh, it should be hieroglyphics too, pfft.