mircea_popescu: this is unacceptable.
jurov: FabianB, go on.
jurov: unacceptable?
thestringpuller: lets go falcons
thestringpuller: jurov doesn't unit test
thestringpuller: don't trust his code
thestringpuller: kakobrekla: accept my bet
FabianB: jurov: didn't know you already forwarded it to mpex
jurov: thestringpusher, why do you think?
mircea_popescu: jurov wordplay hehe
thestringpuller: I like that
thestringpuller: thestringpuhser
thestringpuller: thestringpusher*
thestringpuller: when I have money to hire a sock puppet that is what he/she'll be called
jurov: i do unit test. just left some unlikely scenarios for later, cause i'm lazy.
thestringpuller: nigga puh-lease
jurov: now they become more and more likely
mircea_popescu: whoa fdp got like 10%
FabianB: mircea_popescu: yeah, no-one expected that
mircea_popescu: srsly.
mircea_popescu: cdu getting butchered was kinda in the books
mircea_popescu: and the pirates did jack shit huh
kakobrekla: thestringpuller i dont approve bets.
FabianB: pirates seem to have high volatility in elections
mircea_popescu: 0 seats tho, i don't imagine they expected that.
FabianB: so http://bitbet.us/bet/36/liberals-fdp-5-in-lower-saxony-state/ can be resolved
mircea_popescu: indeed.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 178 @ 0.00062068 = 0.1105 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2000 @ 0.00062084 = 1.2417 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2300 @ 0.00062385 = 1.4349 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7368 @ 0.0006246 = 4.6021 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2854 @ 0.00062622 = 1.7872 BTC [+]
markedathome: an alleged avalon asic image https://www.devda.ch/node/12
mircea_popescu: ya was here earlier
thestringpuller: 6
thestringpuller: ;;google falcons score
gribble: Atlanta Falcons Football Clubhouse - ESPN: <http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/atl/atlanta-falcons>; Atlanta Falcons on Yahoo! Sports - News, Scores, Standings ...: <http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/atl>; Official Website of the Atlanta Falcons Football Club: <http://www.atlantafalcons.com/>
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P140T] 563 @ 0.018824 = 10.5979 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P150T] 1000 @ 0.03626506 = 36.2651 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P160T] 1000 @ 0.06205928 = 62.0593 BTC [-]
Anduck: markedathome: source?
thestringpuller: boom
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P180T] 1000 @ 0.14987357 = 149.8736 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P170T] 1000 @ 0.09597135 = 95.9714 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: mpoe dumped an put into options
thestringpuller: mwahahahahah
thestringpuller: i iz wizard
mircea_popescu: these look like sales
thestringpuller: to the bot no?
mircea_popescu: ya
markedathome: Anduck: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/16xyv6/first_avalon_asic_picture/
Anduck: ok ty
thestringpuller: ya someone is writing contracts to the bot from inventory the dumped from mpoe
thestringpuller: it's brilliant really
thestringpuller: my how I love MPEX, it was like yesterday you were just a baby
mircea_popescu: o i c
thestringpuller: a e i?
thestringpuller: y?
mircea_popescu: oh i see
thestringpuller: do you really?
thestringpuller: or are you actually blind?
mircea_popescu: http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/src/135872157621.jpg
thestringpuller: people must like posting themselves naked on your blog
thestringpuller: haha
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6286 @ 0.00062622 = 3.9364 BTC [+]
thestringpuller: the price go back up though because so many people want to buy
smickles: < thestringpuller> smickles is havin' internets trouble << more like bitvps is
jurov: thestringpuller, not yet. the mpoe order book still looks scary
Anduck: that pic is not taken off avalon miner
Anduck: fyi
Anduck: smickles
Anduck: got my pm?
smickles: yes, just saw it
mircea_popescu: Anduck i called fake first!
Anduck: aww
Anduck: didnt see
Anduck: but its fake.
Anduck: you're right
mircea_popescu: Jan 20 22:21:50 <mircea_popescu> looks fake to me
mircea_popescu: Jan 20 22:21:50 <thestringpuller> push them to smickles
mircea_popescu: Jan 20 22:22:01 <mircea_popescu> i can see because of some pixels
jurov: nice odds: http://bitbet.us/bet/34/
mircea_popescu: ;;later bugpowder what did you want to ask about margin ? i missed it at the time, luckily someone mentioned avalon fake pic and i had to dig through logs.
gribble: Error: The "Later" plugin is loaded, but there is no command named "bugpowder" in it. Try "list Later" to see the commands in the "Later" plugin.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25600 @ 0.00062622 = 16.0312 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell bugpowder what did you want to ask about margin ? i missed it at the time, luckily someone mentioned avalon fake pic and i had to dig through logs.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: omfg.
mircea_popescu: jurov lol it went from .25 to 4 today
mircea_popescu: http://bitbet.us/bet/147/mtgox-out-of-business-by-end-of-year/
mircea_popescu: you'd think people give it better chances of survival than 2 out of 3 ?
jurov: don't you plan assbot or gribble bbet plugin?
mircea_popescu: not a bad idea.
jurov: !bet "Milos Zeman"
assbot: nah.
assbot: no clue
mircea_popescu: lmao
jurov: (Y)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24100 @ 0.00062622 = 15.0919 BTC [+]
assbot: what do you want anyway, search?
mircea_popescu: both search and ticker.
mircea_popescu: tho it could be in a #bitbet chan
assbot: ill see what i can do
assbot: I don't know those people, and they don't look very friendly.
smickles_: there I am again
jurov: !sudo make bitbet interface
smickles_: anyone wanna bet if I last more than 2 min. this time?
smickles_: fuck
jcpham: i imagine a mtgox "out of business" would mostly be a united states vs. mtgox thing
thestringpuller: I bet 4 minutes
thestringpuller: why hasn't my MPOE bet gone in yet
thestringpuller: !ticker bring me kakobrekla
smickles_: thestringpuller: notice I didn't even finish that line b/f it dropped
assbot: You know, I've had it up to here with this Indian malarkey.
kakobrekla: sup
thestringpuller: that's racist
thestringpuller: approve my bet yo so I can throw down mad btc
smickles_: racist? more like country-ist
thestringpuller: pop rubberbands and shit
kakobrekla: bug mircea_popescu
jcpham: smickles which datacenter is that vps in
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu is always "busy"
kakobrekla: ya well
kakobrekla: not much i can do bout that
thestringpuller: i see how it is kakobrekla
kakobrekla: how is it?
smickles_: jcpham: the californian one
thestringpuller: it's because I'm black
thestringpuller: you racist
thestringpuller: lol
kakobrekla: i thoght you were Indian
jcpham: switzerland doesn't seem to have that problem fwiw
kakobrekla: no but srsly thestringpuller it has nothing to do with you
kakobrekla: thestringpuller, i just dont approve or resolve bets so i dont get in a way of person that does that
jurov: already contacted them? go to #bitvps
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 650 @ 0.00515772 = 3.3525 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller what's your hurry, not like it hits 100 today.
thestringpuller: I just like pretending to be the impatient 12 year old
thestringpuller: "ARE WE THERE YET? ARE WE THERE YET?"
mircea_popescu: you're prolly the only one
thestringpuller: Don't lose you childhood spirit!
thestringpuller: Welcome to the world of Imaginaaation.
thestringpuller: yaaaaaaay
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 52 @ 0.00522625 = 0.2718 BTC [+]
thestringpuller: !ticker S.BBET
assbot: I prepared your canoe with cedar boughs.
thestringpuller: !ticker m S.BBET
assbot: [MPEX:S.BBET] 1D: 0.00100008 / 0.00100596 / 0.00129998 (10200 shares, 10.26 BTC), 7D: 0.00100007 / 0.00154533 / 0.0018 (260946 shares, 403.25 BTC), 30D: 0.000337 / 0.00078306 / 0.0035 (2257312 shares, 1,767.63 BTC)
thestringpuller: sell yo puts
dub: I prepared my canoe with sonar yesterday
dub: going to lay waste to some fish this arfternoon
TradeFortress: hi!
assbot: hi!
smickles__: hi?
smickles__: from assbot?
assbot: Yes smickles__, I'm smart like that.
TradeFortress: or assbot is manually controled.
TradeFortress: controlled*
smickles__: naw, i'ts got 'bot' in the name
jurov: wait till it starts asking for help
jurov: ;;rated assbot
gribble: You have not yet rated user assbot
jurov: ;;rate assbot -10 scammer
gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be identified via GPG to use the rating system.
jurov: nah
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 3250 @ 0.00525495 = 17.0786 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell assbot ass, bot!
TradeFortress: hahaha
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 18 @ 0.339 = 6.102 BTC [+]
jurov: ;;getrating assbot
gribble: This user has not yet been rated. WARNING: Currently not authenticated.
mircea_popescu: we need an asspot to go with the assbot
jurov: is he old enough for toilet training?
mircea_popescu: smickles is like, on dial-up. and some friendly 70yo neighbour keeps picking up the receiver.
mircea_popescu: <jurov> is he old enough for toilet trading? << fify
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24000 @ 0.00062532 = 15.0077 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12376 @ 0.00062149 = 7.6916 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [RSM] 117 @ 0.0085 = 0.9945 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2300 @ 0.00062149 = 1.4294 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: http://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/may20.jpg
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P170T] 820 @ 0.09472763 = 77.6767 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P160T] 1000 @ 0.06097484 = 60.9748 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P150T] 1000 @ 0.03541299 = 35.413 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1815 @ 0.00062045 = 1.1261 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8884 @ 0.00062249 = 5.5302 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25414 @ 0.00062277 = 15.8271 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32090 @ 0.00062388 = 20.0203 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3190 @ 0.000625 = 1.9938 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3643 @ 0.000625 = 2.2769 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9311 @ 0.00062507 = 5.82 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1373 @ 0.00061743 = 0.8477 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6831 @ 0.00061058 = 4.1709 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2496 @ 0.00060969 = 1.5218 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19189 @ 0.00062507 = 11.9945 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6206 @ 0.00062622 = 3.8863 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00062649 = 9.3974 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21100 @ 0.00062886 = 13.2689 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5200 @ 0.00063047 = 3.2784 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5605 @ 0.0006312 = 3.5379 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1600 @ 0.00525495 = 8.4079 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6383 @ 0.00061811 = 3.9454 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5517 @ 0.00061811 = 3.4101 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9491 @ 0.00061522 = 5.8391 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7320 @ 0.00060969 = 4.4629 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C200T] 15 @ 0.05139051 = 0.7709 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5450 @ 0.00060969 = 3.3228 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4100 @ 0.00060969 = 2.4997 BTC [-]
Anduck: !ticker mpex s.dice
assbot: [MPEX:S.DICE] 1D: 0.00481977 / 0.00513888 / 0.00525495 (42792 shares, 219.90 BTC), 7D: 0.00449034 / 0.00478954 / 0.00598999 (1891602 shares, 9,059.91 BTC), 30D: 0.0032 / 0.00414851 / 0.00598999 (9437928 shares, 39,153.42 BTC)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2506 @ 0.00060969 = 1.5279 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8350 @ 0.00060884 = 5.0838 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1644 @ 0.00060756 = 0.9988 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12756 @ 0.00060756 = 7.75 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4409 @ 0.00060731 = 2.6776 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12423 @ 0.00060731 = 7.5446 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2827 @ 0.00060336 = 1.7057 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4436 @ 0.00060336 = 2.6765 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 2 @ 0.405 = 0.81 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 5 @ 0.4 = 2 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10787 @ 0.00060336 = 6.5084 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2800 @ 0.00060287 = 1.688 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41300 @ 0.0006017 = 24.8502 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10263 @ 0.00060168 = 6.175 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 300 @ 0.00518427 = 1.5553 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2116 @ 0.00525495 = 11.1195 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6050 @ 0.00061091 = 3.696 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6792 @ 0.00061091 = 4.1493 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11708 @ 0.00061091 = 7.1525 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5192 @ 0.00061096 = 3.1721 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1661 @ 0.00060168 = 0.9994 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3846 @ 0.00060168 = 2.3141 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 1 @ 0.999 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1500 @ 0.00060344 = 0.9052 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15400 @ 0.00060344 = 9.293 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 475 @ 0.00060168 = 0.2858 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8250 @ 0.00060146 = 4.962 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7975 @ 0.00060122 = 4.7947 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9300 @ 0.00060123 = 5.5914 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 250 @ 0.00060123 = 0.1503 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8397 @ 0.00060122 = 5.0484 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00060262 = 9.6419 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5079 @ 0.00060122 = 3.0536 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 432 @ 0.0053219 = 2.2991 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8100 @ 0.00060122 = 4.8699 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00060123 = 9.0185 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1250 @ 0.00060122 = 0.7515 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7300 @ 0.00060262 = 4.3991 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4700 @ 0.00060262 = 2.8323 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8400 @ 0.00060344 = 5.0689 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3579 @ 0.00060893 = 2.1794 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1500 @ 0.00530239 = 7.9536 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 247 @ 0.00530238 = 1.3097 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 309 @ 0.00525 = 1.6223 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: Infiniti Poker Set to Go Live in February: Will Use Bitcoins for Americans
kakobrekla: “Because we’re using Bitcoin, we’re not using U.S. banks—it’s all peer-to-peer,” Hajduk told BusinessWeek.com in regard to fears over potentially breaking current US laws. “I don’t believe we’ll be doing anything wrong.
kakobrekla: http://www.gambling911.com/poker/infiniti-poker-set-go-live-february-will-use-bitcoins-americans-012013.html
kakobrekla: bye micon?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 578 @ 0.00060122 = 0.3475 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14222 @ 0.0006011 = 8.5488 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 6 @ 0.0055 = 0.033 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 420 @ 0.00525 = 2.205 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 852 @ 0.00524149 = 4.4657 BTC [-]
jurov: thestringpuller, sry i usually don't respond to summons at 04:29 CET
jurov: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 16.40637, Best ask: 16.53418, Bid-ask spread: 0.12781, Last trade: 16.39526, 24 hour volume: 36457.34278264, 24 hour low: 15.63412, 24 hour high: 16.70000, 24 hour vwap: 15.99778
jurov: my god
kakobrekla: lol i just realized, i have a single customer that is larger than whole 1Broker
jurov: hehe yes it happens :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24991 @ 0.00060232 = 15.0526 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6600 @ 0.00060738 = 4.0087 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [ESECURITYSABTC] 10 @ 0.72 = 7.2 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2809 @ 0.00060804 = 1.708 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3306 @ 0.0006011 = 1.9872 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6600 @ 0.00060071 = 3.9647 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7200 @ 0.00060061 = 4.3244 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5435 @ 0.00060008 = 3.2614 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11015 @ 0.00060008 = 6.6099 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8685 @ 0.0006 = 5.211 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.57 = 1.14 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20750 @ 0.0006 = 12.45 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 884 @ 0.0053 = 4.6852 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7800 @ 0.00060893 = 4.7497 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: down
kakobrekla: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 16.10000, Best ask: 16.10997, Bid-ask spread: 0.00997, Last trade: 16.10000, 24 hour volume: 44684.00628135, 24 hour low: 15.63412, 24 hour high: 16.70000, 24 hour vwap: 16.08003
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7000 @ 0.00060419 = 4.2293 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3135 @ 0.00060223 = 1.888 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11244 @ 0.0006 = 6.7464 BTC [-]
Anduck: !ticker mpex s.dice
assbot: [MPEX:S.DICE] 1D: 0.004901 / 0.00517549 / 0.0053219 (39777 shares, 205.87 BTC), 7D: 0.00449034 / 0.00479683 / 0.00598999 (1839870 shares, 8,825.55 BTC), 30D: 0.0032 / 0.00414935 / 0.00598999 (9444988 shares, 39,190.63 BTC)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24150 @ 0.0006 = 14.49 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15490 @ 0.00060419 = 9.3589 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18800 @ 0.0006 = 11.28 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: HEEEYO
Bugpowder: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 16.36843, Best ask: 16.45598, Bid-ask spread: 0.08755, Last trade: 16.45598, 24 hour volume: 46012.49478065, 24 hour low: 15.63412, 24 hour high: 16.70000, 24 hour vwap: 16.09633
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1650 @ 0.0052699 = 8.6953 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: BIDWALL @ 16.50
Bugpowder: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 16.49001, Best ask: 16.49100, Bid-ask spread: 0.00099, Last trade: 16.49000, 24 hour volume: 46183.98018035, 24 hour low: 15.63412, 24 hour high: 16.70000, 24 hour vwap: 16.09854
Bugpowder: ;;bids 16.45
gribble: There are currently 0 bitcoins demanded at or over 16.45 USD, worth 0.0 USD in total.
FabianB_: woah, where are we heading?
Bugpowder: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 16.56000, Best ask: 16.60000, Bid-ask spread: 0.04000, Last trade: 16.60000, 24 hour volume: 46667.37538040, 24 hour low: 15.63412, 24 hour high: 16.70000, 24 hour vwap: 16.10462
Bugpowder: Maybe 18.50 by friday?
Bugpowder: If it can break thru 17... game over man
JWU_42: kinda scary right now
JWU_42: ;)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 69 @ 0.0052699 = 0.3636 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 310 @ 0.00524149 = 1.6249 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2600 @ 0.00523251 = 13.6045 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 221 @ 0.00521186 = 1.1518 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1435 @ 0.00060419 = 0.867 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37533 @ 0.00060893 = 22.855 BTC [+]
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 1 @ 0.39 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 1 @ 0.3508 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 10 @ 0.3501 = 3.501 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 3 @ 0.3301 = 0.9903 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BVPS] 1270 @ 0.0013 = 1.651 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9850 @ 0.00060298 = 5.9394 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 200 @ 0.00060142 = 0.1203 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4850 @ 0.00060142 = 2.9169 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14867 @ 0.0006 = 8.9202 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2129 @ 0.00521186 = 11.096 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 867 @ 0.00520934 = 4.5165 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8800 @ 0.00060472 = 5.3215 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1504 @ 0.0006 = 0.9024 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3595 @ 0.00059978 = 2.1562 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1565 @ 0.00059978 = 0.9387 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 116 @ 0.0053 = 0.6148 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 93 @ 0.0053219 = 0.4949 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1991 @ 0.00533151 = 10.615 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6050 @ 0.00059978 = 3.6287 BTC [-]
Korbman: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 16.73735, Best ask: 16.84332, Bid-ask spread: 0.10597, Last trade: 16.73533, 24 hour volume: 52756.17100206, 24 hour low: 15.63412, 24 hour high: 16.98000, 24 hour vwap: 16.18763
Korbman: Wait..what? I looked just the other day and it was $15.70...now you're trying to tell me we're reaching $17?
Anduck: 16.73 atm
assbot: [BTCTC] [GOLD] 1 @ 1.05 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16188 @ 0.00060893 = 9.8574 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 408 @ 0.00061096 = 0.2493 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6672 @ 0.00061217 = 4.0844 BTC [+]
Bugpowder: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 16.78819, Best ask: 16.94860, Bid-ask spread: 0.16041, Last trade: 16.94859, 24 hour volume: 53194.02273291, 24 hour low: 15.63412, 24 hour high: 16.98000, 24 hour vwap: 16.19784
Bugpowder: I doubt we break thru 17. Asks are evaporating now
Bugpowder: err
Bugpowder: bids
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6238 @ 0.00059978 = 3.7414 BTC [-]
Korbman: I didn't think we'd get this high to begin with (at least not as quickly)...so it doesn't surprise me the bids are slowing down
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1363 @ 0.00520934 = 7.1003 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: well some of the bids got impatient, and just went for the ask instead
Bugpowder: Still tons of support at 15.60 and 16.10
Bugpowder: If t17 goes... its a free for all
Bugpowder: The MPOE market bot is undervaluing the calls right now too... 70 cent difference between vwap and current
assbot: [BTCTC] [RSM] 81 @ 0.0085 = 0.6885 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 993 @ 0.00517224 = 5.136 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [RSM] 145 @ 0.0089 = 1.2905 BTC [+]
JWU_42: Bugpowder: agreed
JWU_42: walls are forming at 17
JWU_42: and not much to take us back to 16.50
JWU_42: or even 16
Bugpowder: I think we are safely above 16.10
Bugpowder: But my C160Ts really want us to be at 18.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12550 @ 0.00059978 = 7.5272 BTC [-]
jurov: but why s.mpoe shareholders had to chose this time to cash out
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 244 @ 0.00517224 = 1.262 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: cause MPOE is gonna have a bad week if the price keeps going up (I guess)
jcpham: looks like it will not stop any time soon
jcpham: the bulls want to break every piece of china in the shop.
Korbman: ha, seems so
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-TRADING-PT] 10 @ 0.1432 = 1.432 BTC [-]
jurov: if it goes only up, it won't be such a bit problem, maybe bonds pay only a half of MPBOR
mircea_popescu: so whats new
jurov: but if it decides to swing to, say, 13, now that would be a problem
jurov: mircea, bitcoinica is shipping
jurov: ..er...mixed that up :/
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: shipping what ?
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 16.75000, Best ask: 16.77669, Bid-ask spread: 0.02669, Last trade: 16.75000, 24 hour volume: 54418.34696679, 24 hour low: 15.63412, 24 hour high: 16.98000, 24 hour vwap: 16.21918
mircea_popescu: whoa nelly
jcpham: avalon
jcpham: 2 units shipped over the weekend: one to jgarzik, one to bitcoin foundation
mircea_popescu: o, they really shipped ? linx ?
jcpham: i assume 300 more to random miners
mircea_popescu: yaya , but did either confirm ?
jcpham: not yet to my knowlege
mircea_popescu: well that'sd where it was friday :p
mircea_popescu: btw, you people about ready to enter your ruling ?
jcpham: pigeons
jcpham: rassah
jcpham: i think i deserve the 140BTC or so
jcpham: i've been thinking on it
mircea_popescu: lol
jcpham: i only need to convince one other judge of the same
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100909.msg1467772#msg1467772
mircea_popescu: his meds are not work :(
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 3 @ 0.4 = 1.2 BTC [+]
jcpham: http://trilema.com/2013/case-i-wences-vs-mpex-breach-of-fiduciary-duty/
mircea_popescu: R Company Sales/mth $ Profit/yr BTC Profit/yr Industry link
mircea_popescu: 1 MtGox $ 14M $ 3.2M 200k Exchange -
mircea_popescu: dude srsly ?! mtgox clears 200k btc a year ?
jcpham: EskimoBob go fuck yourself that was a joke
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6450 @ 0.00060007 = 3.8705 BTC [+]
jcpham: mircea_popescu in the last post it looks like the signature line is cut off:
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-TRADING-PT] 10 @ 0.1432 = 1.432 BTC [-]
jcpham: line starts like: HBNlxhUDnEKbMl1p082ergE+ekRZINRmr12/DpZQy0sODhxGTE40HukSnPL+mQDDy8yg+bjQb
jcpham: but that's all i get
mircea_popescu: Signature: HBNlxhUDnEKbMl1p082ergE+ekRZINRmr12/DpZQy0sODhxGTE40HukSnPL+mQDDy8yg+bjQblA+NsJeI3XyoEs=
mircea_popescu: is what i see
jcpham: I believe I need to verify that. thanks
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17867 @ 0.00060823 = 10.8672 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2700 @ 0.00060823 = 1.6422 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00060823 = 2.6154 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1950 @ 0.00060558 = 1.1809 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22552 @ 0.00059978 = 13.5262 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3498 @ 0.00059924 = 2.0961 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.P160T] 777 @ 0.04160326 = 32.3257 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14500 @ 0.00059924 = 8.689 BTC [-]
pigeons: EskimoBob: i nominated jcpham because he would be less likely to be viewed as a sock puppet than kako who is a business partner of mp and i know smickles has done deals with him too
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6152 @ 0.00059924 = 3.6865 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27628 @ 0.00059908 = 16.5514 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18900 @ 0.00059845 = 11.3107 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10670 @ 0.0005984 = 6.3849 BTC [-]
pigeons: EskimoBob: and jcpham is talking about convincing one other judge to rule against MP, which doesnt seem to need any convincing anytwasy
mircea_popescu: omgwhat conspiraci si this ?!
assbot: [BTCTC] [GSDPT] 10 @ 0.0055 = 0.055 BTC [-]
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-TRADING-PT] 1 @ 0.1432 BTC [-]
jcpham: mircea_popescu the rota has decided to rip you off
jcpham: i hope you are happy :)
Bugpowder: I estimate Mtgox only makes 100,000 BTC /year
mircea_popescu: i call shenanigans
jcpham: lol
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder iirc they made a loss in 2010
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 756 @ 0.0052 = 3.9312 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 244 @ 0.00516178 = 1.2595 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: that was a long time ago
mircea_popescu: and their 2011 report showed a modest recovery
mircea_popescu: but still overal in the hole.
Bugpowder: 1M coins a month
Bugpowder: traded
Bugpowder: 0.6-1.2% fee
Bugpowder: per trade
Bugpowder: so 100k bitcoins in revenue
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder i just go by the reports they publish
mircea_popescu: you saw those ?
Bugpowder: nop
mircea_popescu: lemme dig up
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11900 @ 0.0005984 = 7.121 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122 @ 0.00060823 = 0.0742 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8667 @ 0.00061217 = 5.3057 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3388 @ 0.00061302 = 2.0769 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder https://mtgox.com/img/pdf/20120201/Transparency_Jan.pdf 2011 one
jcpham: mircea_popescu does payment for the rota come from the fees paid by the claimant and defendant (you)
jcpham: or was this the intention or not
jcpham: we are unsure if we should we should pay ourselves from the fees
mircea_popescu: jcpham each party pays 10 btc, for a total of 20.
jcpham: which might seem greedy but i'll ask it
mircea_popescu: the prevailing party gets up to 10 btc back (depending what % of their claim is granted)
jcpham: are we to judge our own dsalary is my question
mircea_popescu: the losing party gets nothing. the judges get 3 btc each.
Bugpowder: How much of their $50,000 / month operating costs is salaries to the owner
Bugpowder: ?
mircea_popescu: nah, the judges get the salary no matter what.
jcpham: i see
jcpham: ok understood
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder nothing afaik.
Bugpowder: They say their server costs are $5,000 / mo
Bugpowder: where is the other $45k / mo going?
mircea_popescu: Bugpowder they have something like 5 employees
mircea_popescu: in japan this costs a little bit of money
mircea_popescu: they have a 3 room office
Bugpowder: yeah
Bugpowder: salaries
mircea_popescu: in a not so great part of town, but anyway
mircea_popescu: japan is expensive throughout
Bugpowder: Also its 50k btc + $350k
Bugpowder: revenue
mircea_popescu: they also took angel funding in 2010ish
Bugpowder: yeah but that is equity
Bugpowder: They pay out the revenue to employee salary most likely
Bugpowder: CEO makes 100-150k
Bugpowder: $
Bugpowder: guessing
mircea_popescu: you know how cosanguine these things get
mircea_popescu: angel gets employed etc
Bugpowder: Angel should not have more than 20% equity
Bugpowder: we don't know the terms of course
mircea_popescu: they were never released, no.
mircea_popescu: are you up to speed with their op history atall ?
Bugpowder: I started paying attention to btc when it hit $7 the first time
Bugpowder: I know about the hack and crash
Bugpowder: but not much else
Bugpowder: Only had a gox account for about a year
Bugpowder: maybe 18 months
Bugpowder: i don't remember
Bugpowder: 1 year
mircea_popescu: well anyway, originalyl site started by some guy in the us
mircea_popescu: who then got cold feet and wanted out
Bugpowder: yeah
mircea_popescu: gave the site away practically to the current team
mircea_popescu: then hacked into it and stole some moneyz lol
Bugpowder: oops
mircea_popescu: (that was the "auditor" )
Bugpowder: den of thieves, bitcoin is.
assbot: [BTCTC] [RSM] 98 @ 0.0089 = 0.8722 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6265 @ 0.00060205 = 3.7718 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: kinda primitive relationships, at least historically.
assbot: [BTCTC] [RSM] 14 @ 0.009 = 0.126 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5685 @ 0.0005984 = 3.4019 BTC [-]
jurov_: mircea_popescu, primitive as opposed to what ?
jurov_: to the wannabe Rule Of Law irl?
mircea_popescu: jurov_ relationships based on tribal structures rather than flow of capital, law and ownership
jurov: and how would that happen? as long as majority of players are anonymous, there is no real incentive to follow the law
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22500 @ 0.0005984 = 13.464 BTC [-]
Bugpowder: BURNING MAN
jurov: i tried to reconcile that when i thought about the gpg story, but no. people just are dishonorable thieves when they can.
mircea_popescu: eh, i doubt that.
mircea_popescu: for most of history people could be dishonorable thieves and mostly were not.
mircea_popescu: i think this is a convenient statal lie, to justify the historically incredible levels of taxation.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1017 @ 0.00060205 = 0.6123 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8217 @ 0.00060947 = 5.008 BTC [+]
jurov: then why the first reaction to state failure is often looting?
jurov: don't know if it's true but i heard in romania even central heating equipment was stolen in some places
jurov: when communist regime fell
mircea_popescu: for the same reason takling away the prop of a tree leads to tree colapsing
mircea_popescu: this doesn't prove trees can't grow on their own trunks
mircea_popescu: it just proves propping them is a bad idea.
jurov: i don't see how the argument relates.. it was not like something completely vital was removed during the '89 revolution
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 600 @ 0.00533727 = 3.2024 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: something completely vital was removed for the red decades
mircea_popescu: replaced with a stupid barely functional ersatz
mircea_popescu: once the ersatz collapsed the impression was that there's something missing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7667 @ 0.00060947 = 4.6728 BTC [+]
jurov: lol, show me any significant group of people that can exist outside of state without "impression that there's something missing"
mircea_popescu: ever been in a mining colony ?
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 4 @ 0.34 = 1.36 BTC [+]
jurov: no, why?
mircea_popescu: well cause it'd be a ready example.
mircea_popescu: any small village works, too.
jurov: yes, provided there are no armed groups roaming the landscape
jurov: last 60 years in europe are an exception in this regard
mircea_popescu: how about the old west ?
jurov: what is old west?
jurov: you mean in america?
mircea_popescu: yea
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2150 @ 0.0005984 = 1.2866 BTC [-]
jurov: good example. it mostly appeared to work cause there was no competition for food/land...
jurov: but maybe at expense to slaves/natives
jurov: i don't know 'merica history, dunno how many people were actually violently killed there
Korbman: millions
jurov: just got the feeling that ability to call 911 was welcomed even there
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00059841 = 3.5905 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15650 @ 0.0005984 = 9.365 BTC [-]
pigeons: 911 is a joke in you town
mircea_popescu: no competition for food/land ?!
mircea_popescu: my very dear boy!
mircea_popescu: the us was built on competition for food and land.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 1 @ 0.53 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: what do you think made barbed wire such a commercial success
jurov: barbed wire? used in american old west? you lost me again
dub: missed the start of this conversation
dub: but the problem with humans is we are naturally peices of shit
jurov: i'd say yurp built on competition for food and land... when it got unbearable, everyone went to us since it was supposedly much better there
dub: once you put enough of us in close proximity we will rob rape and kill each other
jcpham: especially if food is in short supply
dub: which means you need some policing which implies a state
dub: even when its not
jcpham: if you force me to live in close proximity with people
jcpham: i would probably attempt to dominate my peers or control them
jcpham: C cup and larger against that wall
jcpham: strong men over here against this wall
dub: well, _you_ would because of your conditioning, that success must be at teh expense of your peers
jcpham: yes i am a shit
jcpham: i admit it
jcpham: everyone would be a resource for me to assign
dub: even without our existing societal fuck up, humans cannot coexist en masse
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 1 @ 0.3999 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: jcpham the dispute of cattle vs farm was settled by barbed wire
mircea_popescu: more efficient than the other party's weaponry.
assbot: [BTCTC] [COGNITIVE] 4 @ 0.4 = 1.6 BTC [+]
jcpham: the 'ol fence trick, eh?
jcpham: round 'em up and stick them in a fence?
assbot: [BTCTC] [BASIC-MINING] 2 @ 0.34 = 0.68 BTC [+]
jurov: anyway, i think when i'd pick random person that lived 60 to 6000 years ago and explained about how oppressive is the modern state i currently live in
jurov: i'd get unbelieving stare, perhaps
jurov: not that it can't be improved... but removing it completely, srsly?
mircea_popescu: sure.
jcpham: removing a lot of these societal structures implies a lot of death
pigeons: well, at least whining
jcpham: not whining!
mircea_popescu: listen, killing someione is not the trivial matter it appears to be in video games.
mircea_popescu: even if given free reign to kill anyone at any time most people couldn't be arsed.
jurov: lol, maybe he'd agree that inability to treat wives as property is kinda oppressing :DDD
assbot: [MPEX] [O.BTCUSD.C140T] 5 @ 0.15725077 = 0.7863 BTC [+]
jcpham: i mean death as in people who cannot provide for themselves
jcpham: without society and technology
jcpham: and who will surely waste away or be overtaken by others
mircea_popescu: or learn to suck cock, and do it well.
jcpham: yikes
jcpham: true story though
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with giving good head.
pigeons: well, or else people who want to help "people who cannot provide for themselves" won't have GovCo in the way and can help them
jcpham: if we all were required to produce something to be usefull, many of us might be in trouble
jcpham: assume you have an alotment of fresh air
jcpham: that costs some personal production
jcpham: you want to breathe, contribute.
jcpham: i'm telling you fresh water futures and clean air
jcpham: someone will mop up one day
pigeons: first we need to get rid of that meddling lorax
mircea_popescu: jcpham i doubt mpoe-pr would have much trouble.
jurov: jcpham, funnily enough that was a communist idea that everyone must be employed and producing
jcpham: i somewhat agree with it
dub: the hilarious thing about libertarians and anti-state crowd
jcpham: the worls is full of producers and consumers
jcpham: consumers far far far outweigh producers
dub: is the root of it is they think that because they are a beautiful and unique snowflake they will somehow do a better job than 'the state'
mircea_popescu: dub indeed :D
dub: when its that inherently selfish nature of humanity that is the reason we need it
mircea_popescu: after all, they're smart enough to have figured it out first!
jcpham: i agree that i am an entirely selfish human
jcpham: much more so now that i have a fmily
dub: you are human
dub: its a human trait, you don't own it you selfish bastard
dub: :)
mircea_popescu: fuck you dub its all mine
jcpham: i am the only one
jcpham: you both are lying
dub: brb loading my ar15
jcpham: how can we bet on this now?
jcpham: can we make a selfishness bet
mircea_popescu: no you can't
mircea_popescu: because i made it
jcpham: damn
dub: I have a good one, by 2050 there will be less than half as many humans as today
dub: that wil prove it nicely
dub: and if we are around to collect, well we already won so we wont need to
mircea_popescu: i will personally impregnate a billionty womenz to win this bet.
mircea_popescu: me and micon
iz: dub: ever heard of the prisoner's dilemma?
iz: in a non-zero sum game, the "selfish" move also helps everyone else
mircea_popescu: isthat nonzero or above zero ?
mircea_popescu: omfg what bs ruling is this.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1750 @ 0.0053558 = 9.3727 BTC [+]
jcpham: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
jcpham: ahhh philosophy 101
jcpham: ethics even
iz: it means that hurting your opponent doesn't help you.. that's non-zero sum
mircea_popescu: jcpham pigeons i hope you realise the net result of this will simply be me putting it in the faq that i will keep all misrouted funds and fu.
iz: games like chess or checkers, are zero sum, where hurting your opponent directly helps you
jcpham: pigeons you see that
iz: it's not above zero, below zero, or zero
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 2075 @ 0.0053558 = 11.1133 BTC [+]
jcpham: mircea_popescu is our judgement not "fair"
mircea_popescu: it's particularly dumb, in that it allows idiots to extract money from me now.
mircea_popescu: send 100 btc, sue, get 110 back lalala
mircea_popescu: so no, this is the last case on this topic.
jcpham: so 20 btc in "fees"
jcpham: 9 to judges leaving 11
jcpham: fair is to split the 11btc
jcpham: or not pay the rota?
jcpham: it is confusing
mircea_popescu: myeah.
assbot: [BTCTC] [MININGCO.ETF] 2 @ 0.5 = 1 BTC
jcpham: now you can just tell everyone the orta sucks
jcpham: we are all just scamsters
mircea_popescu: pretty mcuh lol. "too soon"
jcpham: i'd also be willing to forego payment to make the situation "correct"
jcpham: didn't seem like an avaialble option though
mircea_popescu: forego payment, what bs is that.
mircea_popescu: you don't forego payment. fucking up has costs.
mircea_popescu: you just allocated the cost of fucking up to me, and i'm not the one who fucked up.
jcpham: that's just me i'm speaking for
mircea_popescu: this is fucked up.
jcpham: if you send me a bill for your losses i can make payments until you recover fully
mod6: wat
mircea_popescu: lol
mod6: this is the dumbest ruling in virtual case law
mod6: lol
mircea_popescu: also the first.
mircea_popescu: funny how that works 0.0
mod6: ikr
mircea_popescu: i guess it at least proves they be independent ninnies.
jcpham: i think mre preparation or organization is required
mod6: you guys need to think about what you're doing
mircea_popescu: dawg, independence is this concept whereby people think autonomously
mod6: christ on a pony
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 500 @ 0.00534198 = 2.671 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 850 @ 0.00534197 = 4.5407 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.DICE] 1446 @ 0.00524041 = 7.5776 BTC [-]
jcpham: i suppose it is too late now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9684 @ 0.00060947 = 5.9021 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11366 @ 0.00060971 = 6.93 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: it wouldn't be drama if it weren't too late.
jurov: whatever. i was organizing international summercamp, bank asked us the fee to sort out payments with incomplete info
jurov: not them
jurov: i doubt if i'd get anything if we sued
mircea_popescu: right. cause the bank won't do the insane sort of shit i do
mircea_popescu: cause it knows better
mod6: what a bunch of asshats
jcpham: fwiw i started to penalize you both equally
mircea_popescu: because why ?
jcpham: for making me work
mircea_popescu: lol
mod6: omfg why did you ask to do this?!?!?!
jcpham: jesus told me to apply
mod6: of course he did
mircea_popescu: lol
jcpham: why are you upset mod6
mircea_popescu: ima hold rota entrance exams, consisting of reciting cicero and laurian in latin
jcpham: mircea_popescu will keep the funds in the future
jcpham: so he won't even need the rota
jcpham: seems like a win-win for a few btc
mircea_popescu: ya, but i'll send all complainants to haunt you
jcpham: we figured that...
jcpham: sortof an early precednet
jcpham: hopefully I won'r be nominated anymore because i'm just insane
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10284 @ 0.00060971 = 6.2703 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4766 @ 0.00061235 = 2.9185 BTC [+]
jurov: bah, "judges" nobody asked about the "mispaid/rounded orders create significant overhead"?
mircea_popescu: no cause they are from occupy movement.
jurov: like, is it so significant as to justfy keeping whole amount?
jurov: occupy? now it's clear to me.
jcpham: occupy movement..... huh
mircea_popescu: you know, the people who hate financial instutions
jurov: jcpham, do ask, i'm curious. maybe the overhead includes doing something interesting with the bitches
mircea_popescu: lol
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7785 @ 0.00060287 = 4.6933 BTC [-]
mod6: (11:25) < mircea_popescu> ima hold rota entrance exams, consisting of reciting cicero and laurian in latin
mod6: this is a must
mod6: otherwise this just creates way more problems then it solves
mod6: we can't have these dunderhead rulings being created when people have no idea what they're even doing
mircea_popescu: <mod6> otherwise this just creates way more problems then it solves << i am grasped by sudden terror at the realisation of that, yes.
mircea_popescu: somehow i just never foresaw this one.
mod6: rip it up and start again
mircea_popescu: im not doing anything today.
mod6: im srsly irk'd by this
mircea_popescu: why lol
mod6: the plaintiff fucked up. his funds should be returned minus fees. nothing more.
dub: who initiated the rota action?
mod6: nothing less. this is idiotic.
dub: oh the plaintiff
pigeons: yeah i wanted punititve damages against mircea_popescu for wasting our time, using the rota as a promotion, and forcing customers to sue him just to get typical service
dub: is the fuckup guy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 934 @ 0.00061235 = 0.5719 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16495 @ 0.00061302 = 10.1118 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: pigeons yeah well, you sorta misunderstand what this is all for.
jcpham: possibly
mod6: i really thought the court was a great idea, actually. now i just see that we don't have the foresight/legal wisdom to carry it out
kakobrekla: like the real judged do.
kakobrekla: judges
mod6: this is more important then that is
mod6: that still will be over in the not too distant future, this is the future
jcpham: what good is talking going to do now
jcpham: if i'm not allowed to change anything
jcpham: i mean, I don't like the format myself
mircea_popescu: jcpham cause you get to feel bad about it
jcpham: the blog posting and whatnjot
dub: sorry why was the rota engaged?
pigeons: http://trilema.com/2013/case-i-wences-vs-mpex-breach-of-fiduciary-duty/
dub: dude sent wrong amount, it seemed like mircea_popescu was trying to help him sort it out
jcpham: i'm not feeling mad, I'm feeling as if I disappointed someone
dub: did he then demand rota justice or did mircea_popescu
jcpham: regardless, someone was going to get disappointed
pigeons: it was engaged because instead of mircea_popescu just being a normal human, he used a customer service case to not fix the issue so he could force his customer to sue him to get justice, just so he could promote his rota
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 5000 @ 0.00100013 = 5.0007 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 1000 @ 0.00100012 = 1.0001 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 230 @ 0.00100011 = 0.23 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 500 @ 0.0010001 = 0.5001 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 500 @ 0.00100009 = 0.5 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 770 @ 0.00100006 = 0.77 BTC [-]
jcpham: which is fine by me and we obviously did a bad job
jurov: like, it's totally the mission of a judge to please everyone
jcpham: so what's the point now? to learn from it
dub: yeah you did tbh
jcpham: or just get shit on
jcpham: FWIW i 'm not seeing any volunteers
jcpham: you have about 11 months to get your shit together
dub: its obviously the guys fault but forcing the rota to deal with it is not good for either rota or mpex imo
pigeons: if you are going to make a point that people can use your rota and it is a good alternative dispute method, forcing the issue on something like this when you just should have credited the dide without all the hassle is shitty
mircea_popescu: pigeons i should have credited the dude w/o the hassle ?
jurov: pigeons, it would be good if you included the reasoning in your judgement
mircea_popescu: he's absolutely the last guy who sends ANY ammt to mpex and gets crtedited.
pigeons: my reasoning was included,
mircea_popescu: that's a certainty.
pigeons: "MPex does disclaim responsibility for customer errors in depositing, but correcting this error is a reasonable part of fiduciary duty."
jcpham: the problem is the fees, not the deposit
jcpham: that's where the uncertainty is
jcpham: to me, the fee is negligible given the deposit amount
dub: what fees?
mircea_popescu: how;s the relation relevant ?
pigeons: i wanted to include that i thought the rota was a good idea and didnt expect mircea_popescu would pt barnum it
jcpham: but i see now it is not negligble at al
jcpham: the fee is just a bonus
jcpham: we're talking about .00005 at max bitcoin transaction
mircea_popescu: pigeons the reason nobody was using it was (i understand now) the justified fear that people are not equipped to judge.
jcpham: in fees for the 130 btc
mircea_popescu: sadly this was proven true, luckily it was proven true on a modest case of little import.
jcpham: for all the ORTA fees are just icing on the cake
dub: so does MP get the neg rating?
jcpham: the 20 btc in fees is icing on the cake for someone
jcpham: it always will be
dub: or just the 100btc loss
dub: 130*
pigeons: jcpham: explain the fees thing
jcpham: so we think or we know it was his funds and we decide to return the funds
jcpham: straight away once that decision is made, the fess are what decides everything
jcpham: the fee split
pigeons: i know it says dont fuck up your deposits, and im careful cause i know mircea_popescu will keep it, but if he's gonna use this to try to push his rota, well fact is it is a breach of fiduciary duty it is totally reasonable to fix this when shown proof
mircea_popescu: i was considering doing that, yes.
jcpham: also the whole fiduciary duty claim is only relevant given non-refund
mircea_popescu: but i'm not happy with how it works, so i won't do it in the future.
dub: mircea_popescu: what changed?
mircea_popescu: dub about what ?
jcpham: so assume we determine the funds to be his, and we also determine that funds will be returned, there is no breach
dub: about considering refunding him if/when shown proof
pigeons: jcpham: no
mircea_popescu: dub historically if you sent the wrong amt you're fucked.
mircea_popescu: i was considering changing this policy, via the rota.
pigeons: mircea_popescu could have settled with the guy then there was no breach
mircea_popescu: it failed to work, so i'm going back to what historically worked very well.
dub: mircea_popescu: I don't understand how the rota could change that, its your policy
mircea_popescu: i was considering relaxing it.
pigeons: but mircea_popescu forced him to sue cause mircea_popescu wanted to promote his rota, and we are his pawns in that
dub: the rota is a binary decision maker, not a policy generating device
jcpham: mircea_popescu did wences ask for his money back
jcpham: i assumed that he DID NOT
mircea_popescu: surely.
jcpham: i see
jcpham: my ruling stands
jcpham: i'm not discussing this anymore
pigeons: we are a cheap customer service department for him
dub: I don;t understand how it went from trying to help the guy to rota
jcpham: see pigeons
jurov: pigeons, did you ask about logs between mircea and wences? to confirm if mircea forced him to sue ?
jurov: or it's just your assumption?
jcpham: good point jurov
jcpham: now i know that i need to interrogate everyone
pigeons: jurov: i asked mircea_popescu
pigeons: it is also in the comments on the general rota post
pigeons: changing the policy via the rota?
jcpham: it was understanding that the parties didn't try to resolve it amicably - straight to rota, no discussion
jcpham: now that i know discussion came before the rota case
pigeons: no, mircea_popescu coached wences on how to format his claim
jcpham: i'm much more firm in my decison
jcpham: fucking precedent or not
mircea_popescu: pigeons wait, what's the problem with that exactly ?
pigeons: i didnt mind the keep your money policy too much but he made him bring this case, and no way i can find that it is reasonable in this instance
dub: it makes no sense if that is true
pigeons: mircea_popescu: the problem is this isn't an organic dispute, you would have paid the guy, but you decided if you made him go through the rota you would get publicity for it
mircea_popescu: no, actually, i wouldn't have paid the guy.
pigeons: ok then the rota did its job
pigeons: yay rota
mircea_popescu: *shrug*
dub: mircea_popescu: it says in your sumbission that you would be prepared to pay him
mircea_popescu: since he sued.
pigeons: i thought mircea_popescu's submission was an offer to settle without going through this, but when i spoke with him he said no
mircea_popescu: next time someone tries that i'll just ignore it and that's the end of that story.
jcpham: problem solved.
mircea_popescu: basically yay rota, it managed to lock itself out of pretty much the only subject matter anyone thought it worthy of considering
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 39 @ 0.53 = 20.67 BTC [-]
dub: mircea_popescu: that doesnt make an sense, your policy is that he would not be refunded, why would that change during a rota case?
mircea_popescu: not entirely sure if that means it'll just die in a corner somewhere, but seems quite likely.
pigeons: if rota decided with what you agreed, you would have made it policy
pigeons: and used the rota to back your policy
dub: I think this is actually a win for mircea_popescu
pigeons: but since it decided against you it isnt good policy what the rota decides
jcpham: i can't see how it can be a loss
jcpham: other than 9btc
mircea_popescu: pigeons if it made a reasonable decision it might have i nthe future had more important stuff brought before it.
pigeons: of course its a win, he either didnt have to pay, or else his rota gets promted and he pays what he owed
mircea_popescu: if it made an unreasonable decision it likely won't.
mircea_popescu: hard enough to push the concept as it is, even if we were to believe judges are marginally qualified and someqwhat sane
mircea_popescu: if we don't believe either of those it's a dead sell, no matter how hard i push it
mircea_popescu: and i don't push dead sells.
dub: if the guy had been forced to use the rota and lost, incurring further cost it would be even more of a joke
pigeons: well it won't be very useful if its only used for what you bring forward to it
mircea_popescu: dude. kids are born toothless
dub: wtf is an mpex custoemr service dispute doing in rota
mircea_popescu: and they only chew what their parents bring to them
pigeons: dub: exactly
mircea_popescu: what did you expect, to start by considering a five million btc case ?
pigeons: dub: actually, the reason is so he can promote his rota
dub: pigeons: then your decision is double wrong
mircea_popescu: no. the reason is so that you people can show you can judge.
mircea_popescu: it's what's known as an opportunity.
jcpham: the only thing i can possibly imagine that we did wrong was split the fees incorrectly
jcpham: no one will convince me otherwise
dub: pigeons: 1) because the policy 'wences' agreed to by using mpex is clear and you ruled against that. 2) mpex would have looked a lot worse having forced the use of rota then winning
mircea_popescu: jcpham that's pretty much it. you allocated the cost of fucking up to the party that didn't fuck up.
pigeons: could not make someone pay to get justice
mircea_popescu: ahahahaah
mircea_popescu: baby, socialism is for fiat.
mircea_popescu: this is btc.
dub: I think you caused this by using the rota for something so trivial tbh
pigeons: i am very upset this was a rota case
dub: next rota case, should I have cornflakes or museli for breakfast
dub: so does mircea_popescu get neg rated?
mircea_popescu: dub it's unavoidable it will start small.
mircea_popescu: people won't risk their money on something untried.
mircea_popescu: and in retrospect that is a wise approach.
dub: that is what the whole thing is about right? judges donate their reputation to uphold the reputation of others
pigeons: dub: he does if he fails to make good on the judgement
dub: I see
mircea_popescu: whence all this arrogance anwyay ?
jcpham: a tx fee and a lot less time could have resolved this
mircea_popescu: "something so small
mircea_popescu: " ? what bs is that.
mircea_popescu: do something small well.
pigeons: something small like customer service?
mircea_popescu: something small like whatever can be had.
dub: mircea_popescu: nah, its a dumb thing for the rota
mircea_popescu: you're not part of the scotus, just yet. so, you know, little room to thumb nose.
dub: look at the notes in the comments, you are agreeing to reimburse him
mircea_popescu: dub yes, it was a simple case.
dub: so he got his money back, good result?
jcpham: it is the fees, dub
jcpham: there is an idea that the fees represent
dub: why is the rulling against you a problem if thats what the rota is for, processing your customer service enquiries
mircea_popescu: dub because now any of the judges can start spamming my address with 100 btc payments
jcpham: apparently we shit on that idea
mircea_popescu: sueing
pigeons: it shows that if you expect service from mircea_popescu you better pay to sue him and win
mircea_popescu: then getting paid for the process.
mircea_popescu: it's a fucking hole.
dub: so you wanted to win, then pay him back?
jcpham: 1) if the claimant paid the funds
mircea_popescu: dub the idea was to allocate the win neutrally.
jcpham: 2) if the claimant can prove ownership of said funds
pigeons: mp paid 9 btc to get his rota promoted and scare people into being more careful depositing because of raised awareness of the hassle of errors
pigeons: a bargain
dub: mircea_popescu: you appear to agree to return the funds or are at least satisfied with his signing of the message, if you had won the case would have looked even more retarded
mircea_popescu: dub : they could have allocated fractional.
mircea_popescu: pigeons what happens now if you send 100.0 btc, sue, get back 100 + 10 fee + 3 for judging it ?
mircea_popescu: am i out 3 btc for each 100 you send ?
jcpham: bank.
jcpham: that's what
pigeons: i dont know mircea_popescu that isnt clear to me
mircea_popescu: heh.
dub: ^
pigeons: where does the 3 come from
pigeons: we tried asking
mircea_popescu: i thought i answered, but again :
pigeons: we thought it came from the looser's 10
mircea_popescu: two parties to any trial. each contributes 10 btc, for a total of 20.
dub: either mpex policy is 'you fuckup the deposit you lose it, no question' or 'don't fuckup but we may be able to fix it'
jcpham: as i understand it: each case will have at least 20 btc in fess paid
mircea_popescu: 3 judges to any trial, each gets 3 btc, for a total of 9.
pigeons: ok, winner gets his 10 back then that leaves 1
jcpham: 3 judges at 3btc apiece leaves 11BTC to split in every case
mircea_popescu: the winner gets a fraction of 10 btc = to the % he's allocated.
pigeons: i would have charged you more than 140 if i could have
pigeons: but his is whole at 140
pigeons: he is whole at 140
mircea_popescu: very odd.
pigeons: 130 + 10 fees you caused him to incur
mircea_popescu: you know, money isn't soemthing to be redistributed to the needy. or do you ?
jcpham: in my mind it takes little to no effort to refund someone
mircea_popescu: you still haven't answered the above question.
jcpham: how much effort is actually required
pigeons: he isnt needy, its his money
mircea_popescu: pigeons what happens now if you send 100.0 btc, sue, get back 100 + 10 fee + 3 for judging it ? <<< this.
pigeons: i dont know
mircea_popescu: do you plan to answer or should i just drop it ?
mircea_popescu: rigjht.
pigeons: that's over my head
mircea_popescu: well tell you what, that's no way to judge.
jcpham: well i'd get 113 BTC
jcpham: i know 4 other people who can do the same
mircea_popescu: 100 times a day.
dub: mircea_popescu: you should have thought about it before using a court to settle stupid shit
mircea_popescu: dub all shit to be settled is stupid
pigeons: you owed him 130, the fees were to be allocated, since you caused the fees, you pay them not him
mircea_popescu: if it weren't stupid it wouldn't end in a court.
dub: he got the same amount back that he spent, you lost the case, you incur charges
mircea_popescu: pigeons i didn't "cause" him to send rounded numbers dood.
pigeons: no way you get anything of the fees when you could have settled it without rota
pigeons: you didnt cause it, it is reasonable that you credit him
pigeons: you diudnt, you pay
mircea_popescu: yeah, well, i guess this shows why the random person, even if well meaning, can not be a judge.
jcpham: damn
pigeons: you did cause the rounded anyway, by your retarted one address deposit system
kakobrekla: ^^
mircea_popescu: lol mkay.
dub: it is kinda obtuse
mircea_popescu: dub kakobrekla pigeons IT CREATES ANONIMITY
mircea_popescu: are you fucking nuts ? ffs.
mod6: jesus christ
kakobrekla: just like bit bet
jcpham: you guys should make bets on rota disputes from now
jcpham: maybe you can clean up
mircea_popescu: lol why'd anyone bet on that ?
mircea_popescu: the fact that all btc goes to the same address means nobody's deposits or withdrawals can be traced.
mod6: (12:18) < pigeons> you did cause the rounded anyway, by your retarted one address deposit system << this is amazing
mod6: are you guys IT people?
mod6: what do you guys do for a living?
kakobrekla: nature is amazing. ~ ron swnson
dub: at first glance this seems open and shut, he failed to utilise mpex per teh conditions he agreed to, he loses
pigeons: it wasnt a case against the breach of conditions
dub: but in the 'case notes' there is some arbitaration and an inferred agreement to refund, so a win for the claimant is the intuitive result
pigeons: it was breach of fiduciary duty, which he did breach cause he failed to take a reasonable action
pigeons: i asked prior about that inferred agreement and mp said it wasnt what it appeared to us
pigeons: but yeah sure looks like one to me too
mircea_popescu: aaanyways.
jcpham: still need rassah's ruling
mircea_popescu: i think this has been discussed to it's demise
mircea_popescu: i wonder what's gonna be the next one
pigeons: wow the fact that you actually expected to win is shocking
mircea_popescu: i didn't expect to win dood.
mod6: its not about who won the case. its about the damn ruling.
mircea_popescu: i expected the guy to win his 130 btc back.
mod6: jesus fucking christ.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4817 @ 0.00061302 = 2.9529 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12783 @ 0.00061358 = 7.8434 BTC [+]
mod6: i feel like im taking crazy pills
mircea_popescu: mod6 blue or red ?
pigeons: why didnt you just pay him instead of making us go through this if you expected him to win?
pigeons: why would the system award you anything for acting in bad faith
mircea_popescu: pigeons so that you may prove yourselves as actually takeable seriously as judges
mircea_popescu: in spite of no qualifications, prior experience etc.
dub: bad call
mircea_popescu: i guess lol
Namworld: So... can I use the rota for the unclaimed giga.etf case? =P
pigeons: well maybe we showed that, if we shilled we sure wouldnt have and you sure wouldnt have gotten any cases
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1608 @ 0.00061358 = 0.9866 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3325 @ 0.00061374 = 2.0407 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: pigeons you forget it's a voluntary system.
mircea_popescu: erring on either side is equally bad.
mircea_popescu: it has to be quite arrowstraight.
pigeons: well cause you think its an error doesnt make it so
mircea_popescu: ...
pigeons: you lost, you caused the process by not settling beforehand, so you pay the fees
mircea_popescu: dude. you created a pump.
mircea_popescu: peopel can now claim infinite btc from me.
pigeons: i didnt creat e this
dub: no you did
pigeons: dont they still have to win?
mircea_popescu: all it takes is for them to send rounded btc.
dub: its easy for you to fix though, just make the rule hard and fast, no refunds
mircea_popescu: dub yup
dub: its in the ToS, deal with it
jurov: mircea i don't understand one thing. why you can't just set a hefty fee for resolving mistakes?
mircea_popescu: i have no choice, obviously.
pigeons: it was a rule, but mp told him to go to rota
dub: I think the rota did mpex a favour ruling this way
mircea_popescu: jurov cause that's unfair to the poor.
jurov: oh, so better take everything. i see.
mircea_popescu: jurov hey, at least it's fair.
pigeons: its not fair, guy had to go through all this just to get his shit back
mircea_popescu: dub well quite possibly.
mircea_popescu: pigeons shit he missent.
pigeons: and MP gets publicity
mircea_popescu: dude i dunno, seriously, mail your house keys to some random address
mircea_popescu: then expect they pai
mircea_popescu: for the tiome you couldn't go inside cause you didn't have your keys or w/e
mircea_popescu: and the trouble of finding them again
pigeons: um wasnt random
mircea_popescu: 130.0 is random.
pigeons: no
pigeons: its the argument he gave to the deposit command
mircea_popescu: what i most of all wonder is,
mircea_popescu: why hasn't this lively debate take place in teh comment section ?!
jurov: mircea, so if i mail the keys, they get to keep the house? is it what you're saying?
pigeons: cause no one wants to email you to get credits to read a web page
mircea_popescu: comments are always free ?!
pigeons: nope i can only see this one page
mircea_popescu: dude... comments are always and in all circumstancess visible.
jcpham: i think if you want to preserve this in posterity for all to comment on, it needs to be moved elsewhere
jcpham: it's very personal right now
mircea_popescu: i dun particularly want to preserve it
dub: ^
dub: lets all agree it was a fuckup and forget about it
pigeons: nope we all think we are right
dub: maybe there will be a real case for the rota one day but it now seems unlikely
mircea_popescu: that's why it's so fascinating lol
mircea_popescu: dub quite.
jcpham: hopefully the next judges will nt be so biased
mircea_popescu: i doubt it has any relevance to anyone other than the ppl involved tho
jurov: <jurov> mircea, so if i mismail the keys, they get to keep the house? is it what you're saying?
mircea_popescu: i think for everyone else its "o, that thing that couldn't have worked didn't ? o wow."
dub: mircea_popescu - the first person to create his own justice system, and the first to destroy his own justice system
jurov: ^ can you at least reply to this?
mircea_popescu: jurov no, you may ask for the keys back, and even get them
mircea_popescu: but you can't get more ffs.
mircea_popescu: dub justice is apparently too prudish for me.
pigeons: he didnt get more
pigeons: explain that please
pigeons: he paid 140 and got 140
jcpham: metaphorically, wences got back his own keys plus a nother set of keys to another house?
jurov: but in this case it's like they told me they're moving into the house, it's reasonable
mircea_popescu: this is literally "he should get the keys, the stamps for having asked and if we could we'd have given him all paid tow weeks vacation to boot"
dub: courts award costs to the winner, fyi
dub: the idea is teh winner goes away without having lost money
markedathome: pigeons: paid 130 and got 140 surely?
pigeons: right
pigeons: markedathome: he paid 140 130 +10 fees
dub: markedathome: he paid a 10btc fee to use the rota
jcpham: the only other option i would've entertained was for both parties to lose
markedathome: oh right.
dub: to an outsider reading that blog post it actually look slike the rota worked fine
pigeons: should all be done in irc and log posted
dub: aside from mircea_popescu taxing himself 10btc to handly a customer service case
jcpham: yes, yes it does
dub: then, he might have paid someone 10 btc to handle it
mircea_popescu: dub it reads like mp taxing himself to create the system, and paying people to be idiots and subvert deposit process.
dub: 10btc is pretty cheap for 3 judges
mircea_popescu: sorta like i'm the government, i guess.
mircea_popescu: except in btc there's no such thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8100 @ 0.00061132 = 4.9517 BTC [-]
dub: even internet judges
dub: mircea_popescu: you eveil, evil state you
markedathome: what would the difference have been with something like judge.me?
mircea_popescu: basically this is a ruling saying "it is right and proper for people to disregard instructions and send anything they want to mpex"
mircea_popescu: which is pretty boneheaded.
jcpham: i do not agree with that
pigeons: no but it happens, especially with the weird deposit system
dub: neither
jcpham: i see your point, but based on the details of this case
jcpham: that is not true
mircea_popescu: pigeons "it happens" ?
pigeons: and when it does happen, and you've shown mpex that you made it error, they dont fix it, hence the rota decision
jurov: no. it is ruling saying "it is improper for mpex to keep everything if user makes a mistake"
jcpham: especially if the user sends the correct deposit
mircea_popescu: jurov yeah. same thing.
pigeons: mistakes dont happen mircea_popescu ?
markedathome: mircea_popescu: maybe offer, 1) anonymous deposit - lose at risk even with signed / authenticated ownership
jcpham: after the mistake
mircea_popescu: pigeons mistakes are paid for BY THOSE WHO MAKLE THEM
markedathome: 2) custom addresses - lose anonymity
mircea_popescu: not by those who have the most money.
mircea_popescu: not by those who are the bigger entity
mircea_popescu: not by those who we identify as "the man" in our misguided quest for social justice.
mircea_popescu: etc.
pigeons: mircea_popescu: actually, it was reasonable in this case to resolve his mistake, that was the ruling
dub: no, its a ruling saying 'if you are going to enter into arbitration regarding incorrect depost amounts, do that privately'
mircea_popescu: dub cheeky ruling then.
mircea_popescu: if that actually is the case, i should certainly dissolve it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7325 @ 0.00061374 = 4.4956 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8844 @ 0.00061495 = 5.4386 BTC [+]
pigeons: control freak
dub: in a real court if you forced a case to be raised, then during the hearing capitualted to the other party, the court would probably impose an additional fine on you for wasting its time
mircea_popescu: no but wtf bs is this, "We are too good for the case at hand"
mircea_popescu: dub the idea here is to create a new system, not to rehash the old.
pigeons: dub: that is exactly how i felt
mircea_popescu: the entire point is to have voluntary courts, which is to say, courts which can be relied on to be fair. by both parties.
dub: well then the rota wasn't what I and apparently others thought
mircea_popescu: well i guess not.
jcpham: fairness is a relative term
pigeons: it was fair to both parties, wences was made whole, mp lost nothing other than the fees
mircea_popescu: jcpham in no interpretation of fairness can you promote a judgement based on one single party's pov.
mircea_popescu: "he paid 130+10 and should get back 140"
mircea_popescu: that's fine.
dub: I understand how mircea_popescu feels though
mircea_popescu: but it's half the story, and not good enough.
pigeons: mircea_popescu: that's absolutely the issue
dub: I took a guy to court for selling me a boat that leaked, the ruled in his favour because we didnt have anything about it not leaking in a contract
mircea_popescu: "nothing other than the fees" is btc.
dub: true story
pigeons: any judgement involving mircea_popescu keeping something would have had to show he was being reasonable, and he wasn't
dub: had to pay his fees
jcpham: i'd like to know where the original wording is.....
mircea_popescu: " reasonable" ?!
jurov: if i'd have a policy saying to clients "if you make a mistake, screw you" and there's no real reason why it has to be so, it's only reasonable the court would say "screw your policy"
mircea_popescu: wtf is that lol.
jcpham: the orginal wording were it says mpex keeps funds mistakenly sent or incorrect in size
mircea_popescu: jurov no, it's not. the court isn't above the contract
mircea_popescu: again, this isn't fiat world and socialist government imposing it.
mircea_popescu: jcpham it's in the old options page somewhere
jcpham: i know it is somewhere
jcpham: because i remember readin it
mircea_popescu: DEPOSIT|{sum}, where the sum is an integer, written in BTC (note that you can not deposit less than 10 BTC). You will be quoted an exact sum, which you must send to the exchange address (1Fx3N5iFPDQxUKhhmDJqCMmi3U8Y7gSncx). Don't round anything, the decimals are there to identify you as the beneficiary. You will be credited the full amount.
pigeons: i thought about giving it to mp since he does say he keeps errors, but in law that wont hold up, thats not reasonable
mircea_popescu: there's that in the current faq
jurov: the court isn't above the contract... who decided, you?
jurov: rota just decided else
mircea_popescu: jurov yes.
mircea_popescu: well rota is well fucked then.
pigeons: even if a contract spells that and this happened a court rules this way
jcpham: yes but i thought there was wording that said something along the lines of "if it is wrong, you do not get it back"
mircea_popescu: jcpham there's gonna be lol.
jcpham: which is a customer service nightmare
jcpham: if you relegate me to customer service, I'm going to serve your customers
jcpham: for better or worse
mircea_popescu: that's not what a judge does.
mircea_popescu: turns out this banal case was actually incredibly fucking intricate huh.
jcpham: i wouldn't think so either
jcpham: but here we are.
jcpham: i think everyone had the best intentions
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure, yeah.
mircea_popescu: but i squarely don't see how anyone would ever consider responding to a case, ever.
mircea_popescu: i mean, why ? run the risk of purely unilateral sidetaking... to what avail ? makes no sense.
jcpham: the next case may be unilateral against the claimant
mircea_popescu: that's no consolation.
pigeons: yeah you always run the risk of unilateral sidetaking
jcpham: the fees are the only way you have been harmed
mircea_popescu: if people wanted to gamble they'd go to sdice
pigeons: this was just clearcut mircea_popescu you owed him the money, he won, loser pays fees
jcpham: it seems the real precedent is the loser pays the fees
jcpham: but i don't like the winner/loser description
jcpham: it wasn't necessary to frame this case this way imho
pigeons: if another case it works out differently fine, that doesnt have to be a precedent, but in this case the fees were clearly incurred by mircea_popescu being unwilling to work out the issue despite having the facts beforehand
mircea_popescu: pigeons except the loser is the party that made no mistake.
mircea_popescu: which is insane.
jcpham: the implication is that the "mistake" was not returning the funds
jcpham: as quickly as possible
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12600 @ 0.00061495 = 7.7484 BTC [+]
jcpham: if the guy hadn't send the correct amount
mircea_popescu: this can not be a mistake. it's not part of the deal.
jcpham: i can see him not getting his money back
pigeons: its pretty well established in law actually that you don't pay for mistakes
mircea_popescu: the court can't substitute its own moral judgements for the contract between the parties.
jcpham: can't it
pigeons: he fulfilled his contract, sent the money, but he made a mistake
mircea_popescu: he did not fulfill his contract, no.
pigeons: you had the obligation to fix that for him
mircea_popescu: nope.
pigeons: well then how come you lost?
mircea_popescu: i had no such obligation, quite specifically.
mircea_popescu: because i was nice and you were stupid, tbh.\
jcpham: i would seem that due to the lack of rules, the rota can make all sorts of WILDLY INACCURATE decisions
mircea_popescu: jcpham yeah.
mircea_popescu: reading the above, i now regred i didn't more clearly stress the supremacy of contract point
mircea_popescu: i can clearly see in retrospect how this "obvious" point was only obvious to me.
pigeons: no but even a written contract saying that mistakes in deposits are kept would have resulted the same
mircea_popescu: that's idiocy.
pigeons: because the intent of the contract is obviously what's material
jcpham: i'm still looking for the actual wording on MPEX (now)
jcpham: where it says incorrect deposits are kept
mircea_popescu: jcpham i quoted it above, grep deposits
jcpham: because this fact was discussed
pigeons: i knew this was policy, but in this particular case, it was reasonable that mircea_popescu credit the amount showed to have been sent
mircea_popescu: pigeons i guess so.
mircea_popescu: what's unreasonable tho, is to expect me to pay the costs of doing so.
markedathome: the /faq.html entry for DEPOSIT{sum} I thought would have had the same text as that of the command (in fact all of the commands should)
pigeons: which costs, your time was unavoidable here, but you didnt have to pay the fees if you settled before rota
jcpham: to be even more specific mircea_popescu
jcpham: I thought you had specifcs, like
jcpham: when it first opened
jcpham: there was a sentence saying you didn't return deposits that were wrong
mircea_popescu: pigeons why would i "settle before the rota" ? what bs is that?
mircea_popescu: jcpham let me dig it up
pigeons: because you had all the info we had
pigeons: why should this have gone to rota?
jcpham: i would like to re-read it if it still there
pigeons: only reason (other than bad faith wanting to promote rota) would be you didnt want to pay
mircea_popescu: Before sending the sum quoted you have to send an email containing at the very least the address you want benefits (through either the later exercise or sale of your contracts) forwarded to and the sum quoted to you. This allows you to be identified. If you fail to do this it may be impossible to ever identify you as the owner of the respective contracts/bitcoins, and so they may be forever lost.
pigeons: it shouldnt have gone to rota because he made it clear to you he paid the money
mircea_popescu: pigeons he only made it clear at the rota, actually.
mircea_popescu: once he finally signed the thing
jcpham: i suggest a new irc channel for this discussion should it arise again
jcpham: possibly a new forum format
mircea_popescu: why, we drownign out the assbot ?
assbot: naw
pigeons: im not doing a forum, but an irc channel agreed
mircea_popescu: you can go to #trilema.
jcpham: other than mircea_popescu's blog
pigeons: i cant read his blog it asks for a fee
jcpham: i'm dependant on google translate
mircea_popescu: lately i write in english, still ?
pigeons: sort of
jcpham: sorry i didn't know you switched
jcpham: but the case is in english
markedathome: mircea_popescu: faq.html, Q23, *definition
jcpham: untranslated
mircea_popescu: i changed like 3 months ago
markedathome: rota peeps - faq q24, whilst not strictly mentioning deposits, isn't this also relevant?
mircea_popescu: 23. What will you do about stolen coins ? How will you help the rightful owner ?
mircea_popescu: By defition the rightful owner of any coins is "he who can send them". If you take issue with that, please stick to fiat. You are not ready for Bitcoin yet.
mircea_popescu: haha ty.
jcpham: my bad for not disabling google translate
mircea_popescu: defition lol
mircea_popescu: thios was proofed like 8 times. STILL SPELLING ERRORS IN IT OMG
jcpham: Q23 was addressed markedathome
jcpham: it was never at question who the present owner of the 130 btc was
jcpham: the question was past ownership and fiduciary responsibility
jcpham: throwing the term "fiduciary responsibility" changes things
jcpham: in there
markedathome: I thought it was with two deposits of 130btc and only one order, along with not being able to sign with the originating key.
thestringpuller: !ticker m S.MPOE
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.0005984 / 0.000611 / 0.0006312 (1755603 shares, 1,072.68 BTC), 7D: 0.0005984 / 0.00065107 / 0.00068 (8687621 shares, 5,656.34 BTC), 30D: 0.0005984 / 0.00064545 / 0.00068 (38661110 shares, 24,953.83 BTC)
jcpham: we had him sign from blockchain
jcpham: i new statement
jcpham: *a new statement
mircea_popescu: DEPOSIT|{sum}, where the sum is an integer, written in BTC (note that you can not deposit less than 10 BTC). You will be quoted an exact sum, which you must send to the exchange address (1Fx3N5iFPDQxUKhhmDJqCMmi3U8Y7gSncx). Don't round anything, the decimals are there to identify you as the beneficiary. You will be credited the full amount. Incoming Bitcoin that doesn't exactly match a quoted sum will be simply kept, r
mircea_popescu: eported as profits and distributed to MPEx shareholders.
mircea_popescu: there, last sentence in red.
mircea_popescu: and bold face.
jcpham: did you just add that
mircea_popescu: anyone see room for misinterpretation ?
mircea_popescu: jcpham yes.
jcpham: it used to be there
jcpham: it was removed
jcpham: and it has now been re-added
mircea_popescu: no i just added it now.
jcpham: ok, ty.
jcpham: i have the type of memory where i read things and usually cannot forget them
jcpham: that sentence was there at one point in time
mircea_popescu: i think you're thinking the old mpoe page faq
jcpham: a similarly worded sentence
jcpham: possibly
mircea_popescu: but yes, the idea was always the same.
jcpham: it would've been the first incarnation of any site you debuted
jcpham: because i read it then
markedathome: jcpham: the q5 syntax deposit doesn't have that addition, the output of the command did.
mircea_popescu: yeah, that.
mircea_popescu: markedathome o right you are
jcpham: i see
mircea_popescu: it was also in the deposit slip, yes.
mircea_popescu: lemme find that
jcpham: i think if you go out of your way to make that sentence known
mircea_popescu: i thought i had been lol.
mircea_popescu: hmm, the deposit slip only says "send this exactly"
jcpham: not to me, not searchable in the faq to the public
jcpham: not until now
jcpham: i was peronally aware of the idea of it, yes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 134 @ 0.00061495 = 0.0824 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26149 @ 0.00061508 = 16.0837 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: Jan 05 22:13:53 <mircea_popescu> BUT! FOR SRS! I AM KEEPING ROUNDED SUMS! NOOBS BEWARE!
mircea_popescu: liek ?
markedathome: doesn't have mpex deposit so would be difficult to find?
jcpham: oh my bad for missing that sentence on January 5th at 10pm
mircea_popescu: kik
thestringpuller: kik
thestringpuller: lol
markedathome: I think that it does show that the rota needs to have area of jusrisdiction and contracts specifically stated, either in the case, the rota site/faq and in nominating the selection of the judges
mircea_popescu: yeah but a large part of the appeal was the philosophical purity of its general open nature
mircea_popescu: once you start trying to prop things with fiat-type arches you'll collapse in fiat mess.
thestringpuller: ^idealistic are we?
markedathome: then isn't that the jurisdiction, and should be used as the basis? and if so which if any of the ruling matched?
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller when i can afford to be.
mircea_popescu: markedathome hm ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14300 @ 0.00061132 = 8.7419 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 450 @ 0.00061109 = 0.275 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 2 @ 0.5231 = 1.0462 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17313 @ 0.00061508 = 10.6489 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SDICE] 3 @ 0.52 = 1.56 BTC [-]
dub: mircea_popescu: just because it didn't go your way doesn't mean that didnt happen
mircea_popescu: that ?
dub: philosophical purity
mircea_popescu: well obviously a one case of anything is about as meaningless as any other one case of something else
mircea_popescu: for that matter, expectign people to be thrown in a pond supposed to be above and beyond the collected wisdom of a good third of all humans that ever lived is also a bit off.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6038 @ 0.00061508 = 3.7139 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10962 @ 0.00061536 = 6.7456 BTC [+]
dub: again because the 'wisdom' does not suit you, its not invalid
dub: the judges ruled that their time was wasted with triviality
mircea_popescu: that's not something rthey can rule.
mircea_popescu: what's this, fantasia ?
dub: sure it is, they do in 'fiat' courts every day
dub: in fact, judges do whatever it is they feel like, by exposing your internal process to a court of judges you accepted that
mircea_popescu: ahaha! wait, wait. these verdicts, they fail to include payment addresses.
mircea_popescu: o this is going to be even more dramatique.
mircea_popescu: pigeons jcpham http://trilema.com/2013/case-i-wences-vs-mpex-breach-of-fiduciary-duty/#comment-91499
jcpham: pigeons included his
jcpham: i may say fuck it
mircea_popescu: o i see, i skipped over the last yeah
mircea_popescu: fixing.
mircea_popescu: jcpham someone will sooner or later have to lift the messy rock of btc courts.
mircea_popescu: it's going to be messy, and it's going to be a waste of everyone's time.
mircea_popescu: and until it gets done we will just go on sucking.
Namworld: So, can I use the rota for GIGA.ETF...
dub: who are you asking?
Namworld: I don't know. Who's in the rota? How do I start anything?
mircea_popescu: well read up on it neh ?
Namworld: I'll try and find the link I guess
mircea_popescu: normally i would have loved to say yes, but under the circumstances i don't see myself signing.
mircea_popescu: bullshit "claimant is always right and mp is annoying and rich" judgements i don't need a court for, they're a dime a dozen.
jcpham: the judgement wasn't bullshit
jcpham: and it was impartial
jcpham: it makes you look like a fucking angel
mircea_popescu: hey, you judge the case, i judge your judgement. seems logical neh ?
jcpham: Namworld the rota was proposed here: http://trilema.com/2012/the-first-roll-of-judges-december-2012/
Namworld: Yeah, already found the link
Namworld: thanks
jcpham: k
mircea_popescu: that's the first roll. iirc there's a link to the very short contitution in it
jcpham: my bad
jcpham: the link is in there to the proposal
jcpham: Judicator
pigeons: https://www.litecoinglobal.com/security/S.BBET-PT
jcpham: still like that word with the a-
pigeons: wow great contract on that one
mircea_popescu: you mean ad- ?
jcpham: or that too
jcpham: adj
pigeons: oh of course this too https://www.litecoinglobal.com/security/S.DICE-PT
jcpham: you know i had too google the correct spelling of it
Namworld: Well I wish to use the rota
jcpham: when i intentiaonally mispelled it
jcpham: true story
mircea_popescu: If any votes are held on the underlieing asset then (if practical) a motion will
mircea_popescu: somebody didn't read teh contract
mircea_popescu: underlieing
mircea_popescu: wtf he spells it that way throughout.
jcpham: fwiw i have 0 business relationship with any asset or exchange
jcpham: or any other rota member
pigeons: except i pay you to clean my house topless
jurov: lol i realized i can't enter rota even if i wanted
jurov: i'd rule "let mircea screw them, so they prefer coinbr"
jcpham: i cannot benefit from any of this
jcpham: in any way that i'm aware of
pigeons: i'm so fair it hurts
dub: you can benefit of the peoples love
jcpham: can i do the queen victoria wave
jcpham: all my assets defuncted themselves
dub: all judges should submit photo wearing silly wig
assbot: [BTCTC] [BTC-BOND] 1 @ 0.01 BTC [+]
dub: and optionally, gavel in pooper
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 118 @ 0.00061536 = 0.0726 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5382 @ 0.00061577 = 3.3141 BTC [+]