log☇︎
94600+ entries in 0.851s
asciilifeform: so what would a sane approach to 'i wish to live with the company of other bipeds being wholly SELECTABLE', if not boat ? or mircea_popescu sees entire question as nuttery.
mircea_popescu: i'm not directing this at him. he is whatever, i dun care. but from YOUR perspective, he works practically as a scammer. you know how donner party ended up in the spot where they ate each other ?
asciilifeform: shouldn't a scammer have some money on occasion ?
mircea_popescu: actually, further - i think that attempts to solve it on those lines will cost the attempter his life and sanity for no benefit. in other words - i say orlov is a scammer.
mircea_popescu: oregon trail consisted of ? man and woman and grown children and the grown women's boyfriends and and and and a dog@!
asciilifeform: well then let's concretize: no, i personally have 0 interest in being part of a mormon family. and yes, it means i live until first broken leg. maybe this is acceptable tradeoff from my pov.
mircea_popescu: you said "but still". that's denial. and worse - a disawoved denial.
asciilifeform: no denying that it is a powerful thing.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 17:44 mircea_popescu: for the anthropologist, god damned fascinating, they're like a family-sized snail building its conch.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-03 17:48 mircea_popescu: there's ONE thing the middle eastern guy has that white man can't replicate, and that is, a stable, and here i kid you not, a stable, of dozen+ pliable obedient females WITH offspring.
mircea_popescu: demographically, rather than as a work of fiction, the push west was a push towards the highly concentrated san francisco.
mircea_popescu: if you're poor your only hope of survival is the swarm. this is a point of fact, and why peasants and hunters flocked to town to be poor there.
mircea_popescu: why do you think it is a fundamental problem with only SOME things is beyond me.
asciilifeform: i see the hypothetical machine as a pill against 'if yer poor you gotta live near other poor folks'
mircea_popescu: there was a technical counter there, as here ; it was abandoned upon your surrender. what was left were there as here "philosophical" let's say items, which lacking any proper substance can continue indefinitely.
asciilifeform: well it was a philosophical rather than technical counter.
asciilifeform: the last time we had this thread we got a, imho, more interesting mircea_popescuine: 'boat is wrong problem because you are trying to make being poor and powerless work, if yer poor yer job is to die'
mircea_popescu: which is not necessarily a mistaken view.
mircea_popescu: but to my eyes, it;s more a case of "i want impossible item" "why ?" "because of strange notion" "Wouldn't it be cheaper to..." "fu demigod, it is true humanity to do the impossible ; takes demigod to accept the obvious!"
asciilifeform: is this simply variation on familiar mircea_popescu program 'i am demigod and if somebody has a motivation i don't grasp, they are inconsequential sea slug and stfu' ?
mircea_popescu: "look how it leaves... like a child his house.... go gusti! follow your dreams! you too could, one day, be president!"
mircea_popescu: "i swear it came out by itself! i didn't even push! it has a mind of its own! let's call him gusti!"
asciilifeform: i must confess, this is a hard nut
mircea_popescu: (they're lost in space, the histrion takes a shit, which flies towards the foil ; "accept Gusti in your life!")
asciilifeform: (yes this is not what you get in a boat, but it is a kind of mathematical ideal)
asciilifeform: i would happily live in a truck if the truck could be teleported into a parallel space with 0 people by push of a button. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: EVEN IF i fucking armored it and added a thermoplonjon thing.
mircea_popescu: go, sail a little, get teh gargauni out ?
asciilifeform: as a boy i very much wanted to.
asciilifeform: people dun wanna be in a tank either.
mircea_popescu: the nuke sub is exactly an item with no utility or human interest, built under the PRETEXT of a "nuclear war", which is another fiction trope with not much real anchorage (as discussed in some trilema article).
asciilifeform: overhaul is a ~yearly thing.
asciilifeform: let's take a living example, the nuke sub
mircea_popescu: this isn't really how transport vessels work, except for a subset of young males.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the transport vessel is a case of dome much in the way spontaneous healing of aids is a case of divine grace.
mircea_popescu: fiction may contain the emotions of the author, as a point for his compatriots to fixate on and navigate what otherwise is endless, meaningless, the sea of representation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the transport vessel is a special case of 'dome'
asciilifeform: the former is a waste of mental cycles
asciilifeform: there is a distinction between the ~physically~ and ~economically~ impossible machine.
mircea_popescu: the theme of "mars dome" is a fiction trope.
asciilifeform: as i picture it, 'orlov's boat' is simply a lower-tech variation of the theme of 'mars dome'
mircea_popescu: there's fundamental breakage underlying this being "conceptualized" as a problem in the first place.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's not a matter of how to make green a prime number. it's more of a matter of "how to make cryptographic rng work from a seed".
asciilifeform: incidentally i see 'quidnon' as a terrible design, and have no expectation that i will ever set foot in one.
mircea_popescu: no, no. on one hand, i see your approach to be fundamentally flawed, for lack of experience. this is a practical consideration. on the other hand, i suspect the flaw may not be accidental, but proceed from psychogenic cause, which is unclear to me.
asciilifeform: he sees it as a 'how can i make green a prime number' or the like.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu doesn't even conceptualize the problem i'd like solved as being a problem.
asciilifeform: go weather a storm in a diving bell.
asciilifeform: iirc barrel sub was a 17th c. item.
mircea_popescu: only land lubber could conceivably have this notion of the sea, as a sort of commodified milk in carton in fridge.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason greeks call it the master of things.
phf: mircea_popescu: huh, i checked the plot and i was wrong, i was convinced that the protagonist was a lady
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform any serious one. and if they put you in general population, slit a throat or two, you'll get solitary and be happy.
mircea_popescu: and the answer is that "yacht" only exists in mind of people too poor to have experience with the matter ; and otherwise it's a number of discrete items you're invited to pick amongst.
asciilifeform: it is a textbook 'cutting apart' item: what does yacht cost if you cut away all of the dirigible crapolade
mircea_popescu: no matter how sad you are, hair's not gonna jump off the scissors and back on your head ; no matter how emo you are, ocean still won't suddenly become a space allocator working as you want it to.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-19 15:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's 'sailboat' is a racing yacht. orlov's is a (mostly) wind-powered antisocial survival capsule.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505489 << it is a very naive view to "Antisocial" that you will ... find a daddy to enforce the limits for you. God ocean has better shit to do, just like yahveh has better shit to do. ☝︎
asciilifeform: actually orlov did at one point say that he would be happy to live in a land truck but it is too easily accessible by enemies
trinque: could make sense. I'm a city creature.
phf: even orlol made a point a few times that he boats not because end of world, but because it's in his nomadic nature. that's distinctly not what asciilifeform is trying to do
asciilifeform: trinque: i pay the equivalent of a nice car every year for this selection.
asciilifeform: trinque: 'talk to anyone' i am happy to do. but a SELECTABLE 'anyone'.
trinque: phf: there's a contradiction in someone that just wants to techmology, doesn't want to have to talk to anyone. Technology is a social enterprise; if social conditions are that bad, there are problems more fundamental than "can't have real computer" and such.
asciilifeform: there was a test vessel, worked great.
mircea_popescu: it just seems so, until and unless you try to ... you know, emplace a cannon on it. "shit, it slides!!"
asciilifeform: this imho is a win.
asciilifeform: eh you get a hull for so long as you can score a few kg of sawdust every month.
asciilifeform: it is a qualitative jump, in cost AND repairability, and i have nfi why orlov ignored it.
mircea_popescu: yes, wood makes a very poor cpu ; lead sulphide better ; silicone-germanium mix even better.
mircea_popescu: far be itfrom me to insult your boyish dream of independence ; but let it be said that boats are boats and have been so for a long time now.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505505 << this is a ridiculous notion ; for one thing, polynesia got colonized prior to the age of sail. ☝︎
asciilifeform: so long as it were a container AT SEA and not in a bum park
phf: trinque: it's techno nomad, it's a thing. microship guy doesn't really try to solve same problem as orlol, it's all different people with personal interests and agendas that don't necessarily compose into a single stereotype ☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: there is a great deal to be said for living in a shipping container
trinque: this guy's got a lab, what, to continue taking part in the same world he can't stand? ☟︎
trinque: if you've reached the point where the world has beaten you back to being willing to live in a shipping container, why live? ☟︎☟︎
phf: and the problem he was trying to solve is a lot closer to what you want to achieve, i.e. put lab on water, rather than recreate the lifestyle of late 6th century pirate nomads or whatever ☟︎
asciilifeform: about as practical, for a non-mircea_popescu, as a space station, to own.
asciilifeform: phf: ok not so interesting. it's a giant diesel thing
asciilifeform: phf: what was 'boat house' in context ? afaik the phrase usually refers to a fragile river barge thing, rather than machine to survive north atlantic
phf: nah, there was that other guy who built a computerized nomadic boat house (i think he started with a computerized recumbent bike in the 80s) and unlike orlol he actually documented his process very extensively
mircea_popescu: expensive wood is not a case of "hey, x team can never win, cedar lol"
asciilifeform: a boat is no longer definitionally 10,001 planks.
mircea_popescu: plastics ain't that big a deal.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's 'sailboat' is a racing yacht. orlov's is a (mostly) wind-powered antisocial survival capsule. ☟︎
asciilifeform: it is quite conceivable that there is item, which is recognizably a computer, but not one of the items for which ibm correctly assessed a market sized 5 units in '52.
asciilifeform: this is rather like that ibm fella who wrote 'there is a market for five computers'
mircea_popescu: you may be interested ; but the market for "sailboat" is composed of people who already own say a race horse, or sponsor a speed racing team etc ; they're ready to spend by the million.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no "practical instrument" that is the unworkable cross between a hammer and a screwdriver.
mircea_popescu: best i can discern from the unexpected in this latest convo, he's trying to do something that makes no sense for the market, a sort of ostrich-camel of epic proportions.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your sailboats, again, are a 'race horse' luxurywank item, not a practical instrument
asciilifeform: imho orlov is making a mistake though - he ought to be designing a submarine.
mircea_popescu: see, a sailboat, ie, the thing you run sail and rigging championships etc with ? that thing has no generator, because it's heavy. most have no engine either, except where legally required on occasion, and the presence of engine is disdained universally. etc.
asciilifeform: an orlovian boat is a machine strictly smaller than a refrigerator truck.
asciilifeform: he sails strictly sailboats, and strictly ones which fit in a standard american slip
mircea_popescu: equires one to become a contortionist. Another common problem is lack of space for both the arm (with which to work on things) and the head (with which to look at what you are doing), meaning that much of the work has to do be done “by Braille.”
mircea_popescu: to quote : "Boat plumbing systems are virtually never designed with ease of maintenance in mind; mostly they are an afterthought, not so much engineered as crammed together in any space that’s available. A very common problem is that working on them requires the use of tools—screwdrivers, channel locks, sockets with ratchets—but there is no room to wield these tools in the normal manner, and just about every operation r
mircea_popescu: engineering took a sharp turn to sanity sometime in the 80s wrt to this sort of "vacuum spherical chicken" issue.
mircea_popescu: tbh i think it may rather be a matter of agwe