log☇︎
921700+ entries in 0.633s
asciilifeform: the only long-term solution is a work function that is "AI-complete." Hence SlaveCoin.
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: the thing is, average people can buy ram
mod6: isn't it true that major chip makers will get into this space as btc becomes more widespread and demand for these chipsets becomes higher? innovation will follow also?
asciilifeform: the fun part in all of this is that "for every wily arse, somewhere there is a cock with threads." Eventually someone builds an optical computer operating on standing-wave physics, that pwns every new hashing function you come up with the day it comes out.
mircea_popescu: i get what you're trying but you're not ther eyet.
mircea_popescu: this was true of gpus too
Diablo-D3: Im trying to make it cost ineffective for asics to win
Diablo-D3: normal people can buy off the shelf hardware and do it cheaper
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: yes but I still eat away at that
mircea_popescu: so your asic may slow down as m goes up but that's all
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: yes, but people can already buy those
mircea_popescu: BUT! you can just make asics with 1 tb worth of ram per chip and redundant math processes which just share it.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: all you need is a high-speed interconnect that lets you connect arbitrarily more of whatever the necessary resource is (RAM, hashing power, etc.)
mircea_popescu: in that it ruins on-die ram designs
Diablo-D3: give up? if difficulty is linked to -M, your asics _stop working_
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform is thinking
asciilifeform: right now you can put the BTC world in your pocket for less than the cost of a jumbo jet.
Diablo-D3: difficulty is linked to -M.
mircea_popescu: actually raising the cost is building an advantage for the attacker.
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: yes, but do you know what the fun part is?
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: but raising the cost of attack is a loser's game. eventually someone will pony up the cost, and rule.
mircea_popescu: the cost of making computers is nil. we're getting there.
Diablo-D3: I'm trying to wildly drive up the cost of ASICs
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: do you realize how expensive that is?
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: fine, the ASIC will have RAM on-die, running at the same clock.
Scrat: ram is easier to fab than logic
mircea_popescu: i think they should use -M anyweay
Diablo-D3: once you've gone past the size of your cache, the speed of scrypt is the speed of your memory.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: a PC with 1TB of RAM will still be beaten by an ASIC connected to the same 1TB of RAM.
Diablo-D3: Im saying I can make their construction very expensive
Diablo-D3: like, I can buy a machine that has 1TB of memory
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: no, the right hardware exists
Diablo-D3: ltc could be fixed if they used -m for difficulty.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: any scheme that claims to be resistant to hardware brute-forcing which doesn't change complexity class is hollow - it just hasn't met the right hardware yet.
Diablo-D3: read that
mircea_popescu: no it doesn't omg. the same can be said : only the most powerful states can keep slaves etc.
asciilifeform: SlaveCoin, on the other hand, evens the playing field somewhat.
Diablo-D3: which is why I want something that requires off the shelf normal CPUs
asciilifeform: think about the endgame in the ASIC trend. eventually, only powerful industrial nations will matter in the BTC game, because they can afford to build fabs. Just a handful each, even. And we're back to the central-baking clusterfuck we see with fiat.
Diablo-D3: and threw it in
Diablo-D3: anyhow, he took an off the shelf message signing scheme
Diablo-D3: close enough to say plural
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: theres been other committers
mircea_popescu: most slaves are smarter than average for their area.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the slaves need a certain minimum IQ, for Sokoban.
mircea_popescu: i thought it was just the azn kid
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's more people owning slaves than semiconductor fabs. this is a fact.
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: the ltc devs
asciilifeform: all of the Bitcoin-like altchains are doomed, because the first serious guy with a semiconductor fab will own the world. SlaveCoin is the future!
Diablo-D3: the original scrypt spec doesnt allow the sizes Im talking about
kakobrekla: like bitcoin isnt at sha512 yet cause there is no interest cause there is no need cause its making sense ?
Diablo-D3: kakobrekla: I dont think they're smart enough to figure out how, honestly.
Diablo-D3: and they have no interest in doing it
Diablo-D3: kakobrekla: they'd have to actually do it
kakobrekla: cant they change that like bitcoin can to sha512
Diablo-D3: scrypt isn't limited to what ltc is doing with it
mircea_popescu: which is usually the case anyway.
mircea_popescu: explain it to me like i'm retarded
Diablo-D3: I think I might go the 1024 bit value route
mircea_popescu: you'd have to keep a bunch of vats somewhere which'd be the blockchain
mircea_popescu: you could have mining which consists of giving birth to specified-dna babies.
Diablo-D3: well, if btc is going to reach global GDP prices ($34k at current global GDP) then DiabloCoin should be around $1.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: Satoshi's use of gnarly C++ is one of the best pieces of evidence for the "Bitcoin is an NSA black project" crackpot hypothesis.
mircea_popescu: actually,. to go real fascist :
mircea_popescu: this is the problem with slavery, it doesn't promot innovation.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu is actually jabba the hutt
mircea_popescu: I WOULD RULE THIS COIN
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: Ive written bots that do sokoban for me on nethack
mircea_popescu: lol he was fishing for that so hard
Diablo-D3: seriously, you'd think I would write c++ that horrid?
kakobrekla: one of them was Diablo-D3
Diablo-D3: either that, or someone who he asked asked me
Diablo-D3: hell, I think satoshi may have even asked me early on to use bitcoin
mircea_popescu: ya srsly. can it be called something other than "Coin"
kakobrekla: or maybe better yet yeah do that.
thestringpuller: I will mine diablo coins too
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: well, they are.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: people will always assume that whoever the early miners turn out to be, are in cahoots with whoever proposes the alt-chain.
Diablo-D3: how the fuck do you premine it
Diablo-D3: and hwardwired into the client
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: its impossible to premine anyhow
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: and ASICs will always win in the end.
kakobrekla: first you want to run asic then you want to kill asic
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: at this point, an alt-chain is guilty until proven innocent of being a clever pre-mining scheme.
Diablo-D3: I also want to make it very fucking difficult for ASICs to win
Diablo-D3: we have what equates to a giant torrent network
Diablo-D3: theres a lot of interesting ideas I want to try out on making chain transmission faster
Diablo-D3: Im saying Im going to do it from scratch
mircea_popescu: i thought he was
mircea_popescu: pretend it's 2009 and you just published the paper. nao what.
kakobrekla: but he is not speaking about that
mircea_popescu: this is true, he has a point there.
Diablo-D3: kakobrekla: they started with the bitcoin codebase, none of them went it from scratch
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: sorry, had the denominations reversed. but still.
Diablo-D3: mircea_popescu: there will be a spec, yes.
kakobrekla: i dont think they are based on btc.. not all of them
mircea_popescu: Diablo-D3 if you actually take satoshi's stuff, write A SPEC and then have some implementations
Diablo-D3: well hows this
Diablo-D3: I want to take the ideas of bitcoin and use new code
Diablo-D3: I don't directly want that.