log☇︎
921500+ entries in 0.669s
mircea_popescu: except they've established the worst reputation ever.
asciilifeform: (esp. if you include the cost of establishing reputation in said cost. otherwise my front door could be a top BTC exchange.)
asciilifeform: the prize goes to whoever can suck in and spit out fiat with the smallest transaction cost.
asciilifeform: BTC-fiat trading might be a "winner take all" game, like cocaine cartels.
asciilifeform: any lackey of the traditional banking system can trade USD for EUR, so it is unremarkable. but there appears to be a limited number of people with the balls and connections to run automated BTC/fiat exchanges.
mircea_popescu: who is a serious contender for the exchange dollars to euros "throne" irl ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at any rate, why are we burying MtGox again? who exactly is a serious contender for its throne?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is more like, you do the 100,000th girl and your cock falls off from exceeding its MTBF.
mircea_popescu: go hit on a girl, she turns yhou down, you meant for her to turn you down all along. sure.
mircea_popescu: well you can always have an ex post facto definition of the purpose of an item that suits its actual history.
asciilifeform: if the real purpose of MtGox is to bring in tons of chump money for the owner, then it is working great, even if it will soon be done serving its purpose.
ThickAsThieves: mp do you ever laugh at the bank?
mircea_popescu: by that approach that options site referenced earlier is "laughing all the way to the bank"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the damn thing is still online and trading, for one
ThickAsThieves: did you see all that pizza he ate?
mircea_popescu: orly ? and on what do you tell this ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as far as I can tell, its shirt is still on. and the operator is laughing all the way to the (fiat) bank.
mircea_popescu: because they really thought stability is above 100
mircea_popescu: mtgox frontruns to all shit and yet it lost its shirt
mircea_popescu: this is not true.
asciilifeform: I suspect, but cannot prove, that the people making the real money on BTC regardless of ups/downs are front-running exchanges.
mircea_popescu: possibly not. i think we're discussing very slightly different things
ThickAsThieves: i dont think either of your perspectives is totally relavant
asciilifeform: ok, maybe lag only works to Dr. Evil's advantage if he uses it as a nice padded box in which to hide front-running.
mircea_popescu: now europe is going off a cliff, and the laggard is in the best position all things considering.
mircea_popescu: romania is one of the eu members. it has always been a laggard. this was always decried as a huge disadvantage.
asciilifeform: the guy who has deterministic+fast access (say, Dr. Evil who runs Gox and controls the Lag Generator) presumably wins over those who are stuck talking to the business end of MtLag
mircea_popescu: the idea is just that having a car that's 1ms faster wins you nasdaq, but on a well designed exchange having a bot that's 1ms faster wins you little if anything at all.
ThickAsThieves: i think mp just meant that in the scheme of things, betting small in high qty is no better than big in low qty
mircea_popescu: different stories tho, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: (whenever I read the word "goxlag" I can't help but imagine a future Gulag for BTC users...)
Scrat: ok exfortuna you beat me to it
Scrat: mircea_popescu: you will eat your hat if this turns into the next google
exfortuna: >mfw trollcoin founder becomes millionaire
mircea_popescu: there's no real advantage to being quick in a game of wits.
asciilifeform: because what they're ultimately whining about is "the race being to the swift."
ThickAsThieves: its sorta like how i hate traffic cameras
asciilifeform: even if all trades had to "fill or kill" immediately, people will still whine about HFT and bots.
ThickAsThieves: .00001 speculation is no different than 10000btc i guess.... i guess
ThickAsThieves: i guess i'm a hypocrite tho
mircea_popescu: that's the only kind actually bad.
ThickAsThieves: of people wanting the asset
asciilifeform: that only kills one type of robotic trading (fake orders to move the market)
ThickAsThieves: i just want the market to be a market
Scrat: asciilifeform: then it will be delegated to chinese sweatshops
mircea_popescu: you put it on the book, can't cancel it for 1 second say.
ThickAsThieves: whats that?
mircea_popescu: the solution to hft is both simple and already implemented.
asciilifeform: everybody says that bots/HFT are a fact of life, but what if you have to solve a Sokoban (or other AI-complete nonsense) to move a coin...
ThickAsThieves: but i cant stand them
ThickAsThieves: i assume they cant be avoided
copumpkin: that's what you need it to be to reach your goal?
ThickAsThieves: about to hit 85
gribble: BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 87.21000, Best ask: 88.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.79000, Last trade: 88.00000, 24 hour volume: 164007.46365407, 24 hour low: 84.88000, 24 hour high: 109.99800, 24 hour vwap: 97.85507
ThickAsThieves: cant we get back to oohhhing and ahhhing over gox price drop?
Diablo-D3: thestringpuller: Im not sure where you're getting hypotheticals though
ThickAsThieves: would prefer the channel get back on topic
ThickAsThieves: i want to learn more about this. more and more and more and more and more
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: maybe Satoshi should have waxed his car instead of dealing in weird hypotheticals, too.
Diablo-D3: seems to use my time more efficiently
Diablo-D3: thestringpuller: I juggle tasks.
thestringpuller: Diablo-D3: you are wasting so much time on hypotheticals
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: of course, this is for DiabloCoin.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: this would have to be an alt-chain.
Diablo-D3: and then for sharecoins, I could query the client to see who owns shares
Diablo-D3: Im using them for atomic ownership trnasferral
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: the wronged party needs to be able to deal damage to a scammer without benefiting himself.
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: notice Im not using them for rep
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: a Shitcoin that can result in moving coins is a terrible idea. Moral hazard for bond-holders.
Diablo-D3: and the client would automatically pop up requests to do so
Diablo-D3: "this coin will be send to user x if user x countersigns this tx with y dtc by block z"
Diablo-D3: I can sign a sharecoin using the scripting stuff
Diablo-D3: lets say you have tagged coins
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: well, the thing with my idea is
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: exactly that. this system would ride on top of Bitcoin proper. non-Shitcoin-enabled clients would function exactly as they do now.
ThickAsThieves: this is what makes this channel great
Diablo-D3: but the countersignature can ALSO be a normal tx
asciilifeform: jurov: the idea is that you need to pick a work function which remains hard even when a million people (some of whom with arbitrary pull) want it to be easy.
asciilifeform: jurov: this just guarantees that every peer-reviewed journal will be subverted by SlaveCoiners eventually.
Diablo-D3: send a tx that contains your signature like normal, but contains a list of addresses who can countersign it
jurov: preferably resistant to sokal attack
jurov: encode a block asenglish text tobe submitted into peer-reviewed scientific journal
asciilifeform: jurov: do tell.
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: well, the way I'd code it is
asciilifeform: F is a trapdoor function.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: the idea is that a user has to sign a message with his key: "This coin can be shat on in the future, by anyone who can provide x such that F(x) = somenumber." He gives x to the bond holder(s).
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: we'd need a new tx format
Diablo-D3: where I send a tx to the network that says "these coins are shitcoined for the following users" and then list their public keys
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: we'd need a limited form of this
asciilifeform: at the time I wrote that, I was not yet 100% clear on how the block chain works. But now I know that Shitcoin could ride entirely on top of Bitcoin proper. You would store the necessary data as custom transactions (the way some people encode prayers into the blockchain.)
Diablo-D3: like, company share trading
Diablo-D3: asciilifeform: it'd be interesting to have colored coins built into the system
Scrat: exfortuna: this might do http://blockexplorer.com/q/nethash
asciilifeform: but the idea is that "clean" coins would be worth more.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: the only coins you can shit on are those for which a Shitcoin bond has been issued to you. but it is true that you could do so maliciously. hence a certain amount of dirt would be seen as commonplace.
asciilifeform: Diablo-D3: more or less. but note that their signatures only count if you deliberately offered your coins for the process (to build trust.)
Diablo-D3: exfortuna: you can calculate it from the chain
exfortuna: Thank you, but is there a way to get raw data? I'm doing a regression analysis for an econ class
Diablo-D3: and then people can reject coins that have too many countersignatories?
Diablo-D3: and then people can coutersign your coins if you're a dick?