91000+ entries in 0.055s
mircea_popescu: if you don't wanna be potentially sexed, don't potentially open
the potent doors.
trinque: asciilifeform: omitting everything from genesis but
that which brings you
to a shell
mircea_popescu: potentially -- black guy with erection standing at your door about
to ring bell.
mircea_popescu: it's a limited window, between (now, when we get
the replacement going)
trinque: this is why I don't intend
to put emacs into
the genesis
mircea_popescu fully expected another rehash of "oh, it's glacial", as people
then present no doubt remember.
mircea_popescu: but much
to my surprise, you demonstrated a
tower of ductape lisp-flavoured drink
that was fast.
phf: so it was slow, potentially structurally so because of mcclim
to begin with
phf: climacs also had insane resource usage and equally large dependencies, can't run it without mcclim, and we've had a
thread about
that.
mircea_popescu: exactly. it's a "risk free" adventure in
the sense all one risks is own
time.
phf: mircea_popescu: i get it, i'm being sloppy because i want it
to be obvious
that
the box is indeed pandora's box
mircea_popescu: is
this an intractable problem in itself, or do
the sort of people who could do it, keep getting distracted with idiocy ?
mircea_popescu: so basically
the correct move is,
throw out emacs, rewrite it in sane lisp ?
mircea_popescu: well no, climacs was "above a momentary wad of spit, but it did not add up
to something
that can be used."
mircea_popescu: phf i have nfi what you're doing.
this is what
this opening of
the pandora box is all about,
trying
to grok it once.
phf: e.g. i'm using 22 for work, and in order
to get slime working on it, i had
to revert slime
to some 2010 version, which in
turn wasn't quite compatible with sbcl, etc. etc.
trinque: mircea_popescu: depends on whether c-o
to switch windows is cosmic
truth or finger length / hand shape
trinque: freedom rather
than bureau of keybindings, disorganized and distributed in
the heads of shithub derps as it is
mircea_popescu: trinque so putatively, if i wish
to
tell someone some choice bits about his mother's sexual preferences in russian, i must first map A
to A ?
phf: asciilifeform: would you actually use a version 19 of emacs, if we managed
to bring it up
to date? it's almost a rhetorical question, since
the result is most likely going
to miss all
the
third party modes
that you currently use without extensive amount of elisp patching
trinque: I'm proposing
the right design is
that in installing any module for
the editor, you must as a matter of protocol attach its functionality
to your keyboard in order
to use
mircea_popescu: trinque i confess i'm lost in metaphore. how do you map "i dunno how
the fuck you close
this damned
thing" operator situation
to it ?
mircea_popescu: not every
time a dweeb dreams up a situation where he
talks
to
the girl across is a relationship.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so
the proper
thing
to say is, "climacs never existed"
trinque: nah, it means I can speak any language I want
to my girl, and she still knows how
to
take
the mail from
the courier
mircea_popescu: trinque so
then your desk can't be part of paperwork delivery because courrier doesn't know how
to leave you paper ; and you'll have
to clea nthe room yourself as
the black woman hired
to clean
the place can't interact with your desk ?
trinque: "nah, can't bend
the girl over
that corner. right corner is
the pussy
tray!"
trinque: mircea_popescu: because I don't want
to discuss with anyone how my own private desk is arranged
trinque: better situation would be "here kid, have some functions. it's your job
to bind
them"
trinque: it's an AST editor, attaches a user interface
to a parsed AST, keybindings have been considered part of
the UI for a given grammar
mircea_popescu: well so
then would you agree
that " obviously incompatible with most elisp in
the wild" is actually a desirable situation ?
mircea_popescu: seems
to me it's
the exact same problem, cat held by
tail
trying
to scratch
the hand holding it.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-17 19:48 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes,
the machine itself, hardware-wise, is incapable of multiuser. it leaks its memory via cache
timings on 3 or 4 different layers ; it lacks its state via nic delays, it leaks like a sieve.
mircea_popescu: phf and i'm a
troglodyte for
thinking
this isn't right ?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 17:36 phf:
there's also
the
thing
that emacs started as a lisp machine
tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and
then slowly moved away from
those conventions
towards "user come
to expect". we can't even
talk about consistency here because
things change drastically from v19
to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but
these days "everyone" expects return
to newline and indent so
the change has been globa
phf: so a set of functions
that modify
the contents of
the buffer will usually include among other
things script specific changes
to keybindings,
that are designed
to slightly adjust
the default global and make assumptions about what
that default global is.
phf: mircea_popescu: scripting in emacs is
to great extent about customizing
the ux behavior of
the system
mircea_popescu: (why
the fuck he runs adwords is another question for another
time)
phf: xahlee actually went as far as releasing egroemacs where he reworked every single keybinding, making
the result obviously incompatible with most elisp in
the wild
mircea_popescu: which, imo, is enough
to PERMANENTLY bury even
the notion of "open source" as a "collaborative" endeavour.
mircea_popescu: phf
the problem
there is,
that if a cut can't be identified, why are we even doing
this.
mircea_popescu: trinque so shockingly similar
to how... #trilema bot ctrl sq work ?
trinque: proper way
to use it is
to M-x and run
the function you want, and when
that starts
to ache you bind it
to something quicker
mircea_popescu: yes well. complicated. discussing
the simple
things in lieu of
the
things being discussed is not much of a strategy.
phf: v19 most people agree was
the pinnacle of old school emacs, making
that
the default
though is entirely impractical since most of
the elisp code has changed drastically since. moving forward along
the versions is
the movement from "pure emacs"
towards a "systemd included" dwim monstrosity.
mircea_popescu: and
the discussion isn't "default ones". discussion is "cultural ones", ie, "the complete mass of expectations"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note
that when jurov pointed it out, you jumped. why ? if you know
this is so,
then it is so.
phf: l, sometime around 24, for newline
to now mean newline and indent, ... in most modes
phf: there's also
the
thing
that emacs started as a lisp machine
tool with a certain set of binding and behavioral conventions, and
then slowly moved away from
those conventions
towards "user come
to expect". we can't even
talk about consistency here because
things change drastically from v19
to current v25. e.g. <return> is newline <control-j> is newline and indent. but
these days "everyone" expects return
to newline and indent so
the change has been globa
☟︎ mircea_popescu: phf yes; but amusingly asciilifeform doesn't admit
this. somehow.
phf: mircea_popescu: my short log metaphor example would've been
the key bindings.
there are conventions,
they are not always followed, and often
they have
to be recustomized on a per-mode basis, or else you just memorize
the abysmal defaults and stick
to
them.
trinque: eh, sometimes you q, sometimes c-g, other
times ..., I get it
mircea_popescu: dawgs,
the question was as
to usercount. he answered,
that he dun use it. what moar.
jurov: trinque
there was always some mode or context or something where it did not work
trinque: can't really judge
the
thing on keybindings.
they're right
there
to change
mircea_popescu: phf can you reduce
this short leg metaphore
to a strict example ?
jurov: pls don't ask me anything about emacs. i use (neo)vim.
tried several
times
to use emacs and gave up in anger - for example,
there isn't even universal keystroke
to change between windows/close a window.